Effects of Higher Dose Progesterone on PFS

Therapeutic Efforts Pharmaceutical
#41

HIGHER DOSE PROGESTERONE TEST CONCLUSION:

I have now stopped using Progesterone for the past month and this concludes my usage of it.

My first dose was 03/04/2014 at 2.5mg twice a day for a total of 5mg. I continued doses similar to this on and off until around 11/17/2014 during which time I felt pretty bad any time I was on cycle (using progesterone). This meant increased brain fog, higher voice, less energy, anxiety.

Around 11/18/2140 I found that increasing the dosage made me feel better so I started using 15 mg a day which made my voice deeper, I had more energy and clarity of thought and much less anxiety. I continued this higher dose of 15 mg minimum and up to 25-30mg as needed and some days as high as 80 mg until 03/25/2015. I found that I had better exercise tolerance while on these higher doses and could tolerate testosterone supplements better. I did not think* that my libido had decreased, however sometimes you need to stop doing something to understand how it was affecting you. After I have been off of progesterone about a month my libido seems to have picked up some but not much leading me to believe it was affecting my libido.

Since I’ve been off of progesterone I’ve returned to baseline with no long term improvements that I can see so far. I do feel like I might tolerate exercise better but it’s too tough to tell, so if there are improvements I wouldn’t put much value in them. I can confidently say that progesterone put on extra weight (5-10 pounds) and that came off after about three weeks of discontinuation.

So after testing progesterone for a year I can say that in my opinion low dose progesterone (i.e. 5-10mg) is a bad choice. Higher dose progesterone (15-25mg) has the following effects:

Results -

Positive:
Clears up brain fog a bit
Better exercise tolerance
Keeps anxiety stable
Better sleep
Better tolerance with supplements which would otherwise lead to lethargy / brain fog etc

Negative:
Weight gain (around 5-10 pounds)
possibly lowered libido which returns after about a month

Conclusion:
I would never recommend 5-10 mg of progesterone to anyone, it was bad from start to finish with few days that were positive and even those were not better than baseline. I would also not recommend higher dose (15-25) progesterone by itself for people suffering from Post Finasteride Syndrome. While it did give me some benefits there are better ways to achieve similar benefits such as 50 mg of Zinc Gluconate on an empty stomach first thing in the morning for brain fog, energy, clarity of thought (1/2 teaspoon of baking soda in water helps as well). For exercise tolerance Tongkat Ali can be used, and for sleep L-Tryptophan all without the negatives that progesterone gives. Progesterone has also been reported by many to decrease libido and I do agree with that.

Discussion:
It should be noted that I did not do the protocol exactly as the original poster “light at the end” suggested. I did use tongkat ali and deprenyl / selegiline off and on as well as maca powder but stopped the deprenyl as I felt it had very little benefit for me. Because it allowed me to handle supplements that I normally would not be able to, there may be room for experimentation with combining progesterone along with something useful for boosting overall quality of life. I tried some supplements and never found anything worth mentioning.

#42

A way I found to counteract the lowered libido from Progesterone is B6. In the P5P form.

Progesterone increases prolactin, B6 reduces it. I also tried selegiline but it did nothing. The B6 had a huge effect after a couple of days. My balls got bigger and less tight, night wood returned and my libio increased. I started on 50mg of P5P but had to reduce it after a few days to 5mg/day.

The B6 will raise dopamine & norepherine and cause insomnia if you use too much. It is like being on speed. The only thing that gets me to sleep is an extra dose of progesterone.

#43

BrongFogBoy - what symptoms do you currently have at baseline?

It is interesting just how varied peoples response are to progesterone. My experience has been very variable. Mentally its helped at times and then at other times made me really sleepy and anxious (particularly when i stop). I find it definitely lowers libido most of the time whilst on it but have odd occasions when stopping of a bounce back effect where i’ve been more horny than i have been in the last few years. It helps with the prostate problems for sure for me which improves the strength of ejaculation. At first it gave me a degree of gynaecomastia but thats gone now.

Stopping nearly always precipitates a mini crash in me followed by a slow reboot. Sometimes that bounce back takes me a better level than previously. Sometimes as the last time as shown it doesn’t. I have been going to the gym a lot recently and perhaps am overtraining which is boosting cortisol and preventing any recovery.

We have symptoms of a lack of androgens. I have normal testosterone levels. I suspect some of the problems are related to oestrogen like the prostate issues as oestrogen can lead to inflammation. This could be to an altered testosterone/estrogen ratio as testosterone isn’t being interpreted properly in our bodies so although biochemically it can look ok its not. If we reduce oestrogen we can potentially help but at the same time we do need some oestrogen in us for its own functions.

The question is why has progesterone helped some and not others? Its clear it on its own isn’t the solution but could it part of the solution. I am one of those who has suffered for the longest with this syndrome. I have had it since the age of 19. I am now 27. Out of everything including tongkat ali alone and zinc i have felt progesterone is one of the only things that has helped me (when it works). Doxycycline also helped for a while.

Some people like robbo say it worsened things for them and others like beekay, light at the end, hypo cyclist, elb have found it useful.

For me my main symptoms that persist are low energy, ED, low libido, occasional prostate pains. I find sexually things are always worse in the morning.

I am debating whether or not to combine progesterone with a low dose of arimidex and continue weak testosterone boosters like tongkat ali. Increasing androgens alone increases oestrogen’s and also can reduce neurosteroids. Another argument against increasing androgens is that the receptor could still be overexpressed and silenced further downstream so by increasing androgens you put more strain on the silencing mechanisms and therefore you could make things worse. It is possible progesterone actually reduces androgen sensitivity lifting silenced pathways too which is interesting and could explain why some people do bounce back when they stop progesterone as androgens function more. Some people report that with progesterone they feel other hormones work more in their body.

Of course not everyone does. What has your experience been with increasing testosterone through supplements? How is your sexual function?

Do androgens make people worse because of the increase in oestrogen and subsequent inflammation and oxidative stress or do they make people worse because of its effects on receptors and silencing mechanisms? That is the question. If it is the former than there is an argument for increasing androgens to a supra physiological level to overcome the acquired resistance and reducing oestrogen with AIs (this is what Dr Jacobs does). You can also use progesterone to counteract some of the effects and potentially make us more responsive to androgens. That being said if the second idea is true then this is a really bad idea as it will lead to a more shut down system as we increase androgens and you could argue peoples success with progesterone is actually because of its anti androgen effects.

We will only find out really through research so again anyone in America please participate in the Baylor study as they need 2 more people. I cannot stress this enough.

#44

Just to let you know, I have fixed the low libido issue I had from the progesterone.

I seen on some BB websites that progesterin based steroids (eg Deca) raised prolactin and caused Deca Dick.

To counteract this you need to use vitamin B6.

I started dosing 50mg of the active P5P form of B6. After two days my libido shot up. I got morning wood, balls hanging lower etc.

I had to reduce my dose of P5P B6 to 5mg/day as it was causing over-stimulation & insomnia from high dopamine.

I can now increase my progesterone dose without it causing low libido & depressed mood like high doses did previously.

Anyone using progesterone get some P5P vitamin B6 and your libido will come back!

I also used selegiline before the B6 but got no effect from it. If you start to get insomnia from the B6 you can either reduce the B6 or increase the progesterone dose to fix it.

#45

P5P has a positive effect on me all around with increased energy, libido and cognition although I need to test it more to be confident that it’s consistent.

#46

My worst baseline symptom is brainfog, unless I take zinc gluconate on an empty stomach first thing in the morning as well as drink large amounts of water with 1/4 teaspoon baking soda. This seems to clear me up every time. I also feel I have low libido, have extreme apathy and lack zest for life. My sleep hasn’t been an issue for awhile now.

Based on what I’ve read and my personal experience the reason people respond differently to progesterone is because people are different and so will have varying amounts of estrogen circulating in their body (some high some low). Progesterone sensitizes estrogen receptors so when these people begin taking progesterone their now highly sensitive estrogen receptors are flooded with estrogens and so they feel massive effects of estrogen (pains / burning sensation in nipples, higher voice, low energy, low exercise tolerance etc). After several days (or weeks depending on how much excess estrogen is in the tissues/liver/blood) the estrogen gets cleared and people begin to feel better. People with high amounts of estrogen feel so badly they stop too soon and never get to feel the positive effects. There’s also the decrease in 5ARII which progesterone blocks which can cause issues.

#47

Thank you for sharing this.

#48

Guys I was getting better doing tribulus cycles I was getting better after each cycle and then I decided to try to use tribulus with progesterone cream. The cycle wasn’t so good and I ran out of tribulus and then used just progesterone cream alone and I crashed not so hard but I got down a little bit.

I was reading and progesterone cream is used to shrink our prostate (the same thing happens with propecia and proscar).
I decided to start again my tribulus cycles and maybe the higher the effect from tribulus the biggest will be my up, the less will be my down and better will be my next baseline I say this because the first time I decided to do the progesterone treatment I was taking high dosage of tribulus I mean 7-10 pills a day and I got really good, I would say 75% better: Morning wood with sensitivity (everyday while on tribulus), Energy, no gynecomastia, no muscle loss, no pot belly, no floaters and incredible vision, no more tinnitus (increadible hearing too), personality back, girls were staring at me as I was a piece of meat and they were animals they really desired me I think this is relate to pherormones. I was looking to girls like I was an animal too I was flerting every single girl I could talk like it was my instinct.

Then the better baseline I had got was waking up with morning wood 3 times a week, energy, no pot belly, no gynecomastia, little bit of muscle wastage.

While on tribulus I was 75% (as I said) and I just needed 10% of everything I listed and 15% of penile sensitivity (but I now know this is the last thing to come, some guys will have sex with less sensitivity while recovering until they get 100%)

I tried progesterone in all dosages possible. 2.5mg, 5mg, 10mg, 15mg and so on. When I got the morning wood 3 times a week I lost it by taking the progesterone after a month. Now after taking the progesterone I got back to a little bit of shrinkage, a little bit worse orgasm (even after a week without masturbation) waking up feeling a little bit dizzy. So if I suggest a protocol would be Apr1989 and the others I listed that didn’t use progesterone also you don’t need DHT prohormone if you go naturally (vitamin C, D, and others, Omega 3, Herbs, good diet (not necessary no carbs and no sugar, there is one guy here in the forum that got cured with good diet, exercise and herbs)

When I crash I get a little bit more gynecomastia, pot belly, less orgasm, its like everything get a step back. But I can also say that like Cdnuts, Light at the end said when you get better is 3 or 2 steps foward and 1 or 2 steps back (ups and downs and better baseline) (waves clearing your bad days) I said all the things they said that feels like recovery its the different ways to tell the same thing.

#49

sanane, any update on the armour therapy?