DHT deprivation leading to testicular changes.

General Discussion
#41

yes unless some kind of underlying problem is found and fixed. It is obviously that our problem is not that we can not produce enough testosterone.

I forgot one more way to move this theory forward would be for someone here to try estradiol cream. If this makes all your symptoms worse then that can shed some more light on the subject. No need to be scared taking estradiol for a few days is not going to mess you up for good no way. I purchased estrogen cream to try this but could only get bi est and estriol cream these metabolites are not very pwerfull so not a very good test. you need to test estradiol. Can anyone do this? Thank you

#42

transgender.tribe.net/thread/ff2 ā€¦ a5d418c0ac

Here is some talk of transgenders on estradiol some had balls removed some I think are taking spirolactane? Or whatever it is.

Reports on there are

  • Change in body odor - I have this. WHen I took trt it helped with this 80 percent. even though my e2 is too high on TRT.
  • No spontaions wood
  • No morning wood
  • Sperm going from Milky to clear - I still have this - WHen I was on TRT I took aromasin and it went from total water like to much more milky. When I feel a little better my seamen is more milky.
  • Loweing of metabolism - fatigue

I have spoken to some transgenders before and they said they are wired partly as a women so that is why estogen dominance could not effect their libido as much? I dont know about this.

But there is no shortage of women on estradiol having their wellbeing, libido, energy and life wipped out so estrogen dominance will screw both men and women. Of course eveyone does not get all the symtoms some guys here have ok libido with super low free test.

#43

A woman who has posted on propeciahelp had her skin fucked by spirolactone. Her user name was hoople.

1 Like
#44

---------------- Non fin user - Steroid user report

Let me explain my experience. I started a cycle of 400 per week enanthate after being off for 6 months. I had read where someone said you get leaner gains and better cut with you take an AI and there dosage was aromasin 12.5 mgs EOD. Well, LATERā€¦ I found out that that was a huge dose for someone who was prone to estrogen and gyno. So, me, who gets not signs of gyno, probably should have taken a lot less. Nowā€¦ get thisā€¦ I go to cut my 25 mg little pills in half and they would crumble when I tried to cut them in the pill cutter. So, I just take the whole thing and do that EOD. Sometimes, I would skip a day or two, one time didnā€™t take for like 4 days. Anyway, my gains were good and I was hornier than a toad. My hard-ons were massive (thought Iā€™d throw that in). Then, I ran out of aromasin and I started to feel really bad in week 8. Actually, right before I quit, I think I was feeling weird in week 7. My gains started in week 4 (typically) and they came to a halt in week 8. I had depression, lost my gains, lost energy, lost libido and hard ons. I was a wreck. I would keep pinning and even jumped up to 600 mgs/wk of enanthate and I wouldnā€™t feel a thing. No libido, no strength, no gains. It was like pinning straight oil. I felt my blood pressure rise,ā€¦ thatā€™s it.

I had a long talk with sounder from here - He took fin for 10 years and quit, after 2 months of quiting he has a different set of problems and blood results. He sometimes has almost full libido and has lost all? the hair fin helped him keep. He has tested his e2 by blood (total) and it is usually low. And as a result he does not seem to have these too high e2 symtoms. But for most of us here I think this describes us well. And again there are more and more reports of great improvments reducing e2. Take a look at legendaryā€™s thread, scaredtodeath ias back on anti estrogens and says he has improved. For me I think it is almost impossible for me to stabilize hormones with anti estrogen.

Who can do some of the tests mentioned here?

#45

Injecting 32.5 Testosterone-E E3D
Blood test taken just before the next shot
Free T 540 ( 260 - 740) pmol/L
Total T 27.1 ( 11.5 - 32.0 ) nmol/L
Blood E 112 ( <160 ) pmol/L

  • Felt like shit after a while on this dose works for about a week
  • no libido no appetite anxiety
  • Brick in the stomach feeling

So I try and reduce the dose
27.5 Test E E3D
Test done in the middle day between shots
SILIVA Tests
Estradiol(E2) 7 (<6) pmol/l
E1 (Estrone) 10 (9.6 - 20) pg/ml
E2 (Estriol) 27 (0.0 - 25) pg/ml

So we can assume that my free e2 would have been even higher on the larger dose despite free t being mid rang. So taking nothing free t bottom of range - total e2 mid range. Inject test get free T to mid rang free e is already over range. Tests show clearly that my problem is free e\t ratio. The question is which cells in my body are creating this damn estrogens. I am now thin, no excess fat. I am almost willing to bet my left or both testicles on this. At least if I am wrong we will rule out one thing?

#46

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11469540

Effects of androgen deprivation on the histology of adult chimpanzee testis.

After only 21 days of androgen-deprivation, chimpanzee testicular tissues exhibit specific atrophic changes, including the loss of contact between developing spermatocytes and between Sertoli cells and their developing spermatids, alterations in cell development resulting in missing maturation steps (elongating Sc and structurally complete Sd2 spermatids) and inappropriate cell associations, varying degrees of cytoplasmic degradation in germ cells, Sertoli cells, and Leydig cells, and a tubular lumen obscured by masses of sloughed primary and secondary spermatocytes and what appear histologically to be Sb1 and Sd1 spermatids.

This seems to be pretty important!

#47

That really sucks, I wonder if its the same with tissue of the whole region.

Either way, for the love of god, donate to the PFS foundation, no one will discover it on their own here, we know that. Itā€™s been years of people thinking they can fix it on their own with rare doubtful successes.

Has anyone noticed that the people who recover have very few posts? I have yet to see one of the long time posters trying to battle this post a recovery. I think ihatepropecia702 is the only one I can think of. These ā€œrecoveriesā€ mysteriously pop out of nowhere from ā€œlurkersā€. Makes me think they didnā€™t have it as bad or theyā€™re just fake.

Again, donate to the PFS foundation, the more money we get, the sooner the studies will be done, the more likely we are to find out whats wrong and how to treat it. If anyone here thinks they are more likely to solve a problem than MDs and PhDs with a years of experience, a wealthy of knowledge that people here lack, and access to laboratories and scientific technology we donā€™t have access to, well then you are just delusional.

#48

Please do not pollute this thread with unrelated content. For anyone that has any ideas please provide your input. If you can do some of the tests mentioned that would be great. I can not do anything now as I am in the philippines the mail takes months to arrive if it does at all. I am thinking back of flying back to Australia for a couple of months to see if I can get this looked at. And do some more free e2 tests before trt after first injection and after a week or 2.

#49

landesbioscience.com/journal ā€¦ 1748429188

Intratesticular Site of Aromatization
in the Diseased Testis

For example, in an adult patient with Klinefelterā€™s syndrome
(KS), aromatase immunostaining is evident in Leydig cells and
Sertoli cells.56 The increase in the number of aromatization sites
in this patient suggests a higher increase in the androgen to estrogen conversion, as supported by the fact that this patient presents
low bioavailable testosterone and relatively high serum estradiol
levels.

While no data on biological activity was available from this
study, others have reported that aromatase is four times higher in
testes of men with KS

ā€“ relatively high being compared to free t.

#50

There are a few older members who recovered, like Mitch, John Coleman, reason, searchofhealth, mrmoskowitz, etc. Iā€™ve also seen many recovery stories from people at the 2-3 year mark. Always keep in mind that the recovery section is sparse because 1. most recovery posts on the forum are not moved there and 2. most people who recover never post about it, or were never members of this forum in the first place.

Thatā€™s off topic so thatā€™s all Iā€™ll say about it. Just wanted to point that out to keep up hope.

#51

Some may say all our problems are due to neurosteroids etc etc but all our problems can be explained by low androgens.

  • ā€œI actually developed panic attacks right after the first orchiectomy for which Iā€™ve had to take clonazepam for the last two years to control. Looking back, even though the test back then showed my testosterone in the ā€œnormalā€ range, Iā€™m quite positive it was actually low for me.ā€

www.tc-cancer.com/forum/showthread.php/ ā€¦ -questions

You will find so many women and men across the net that have the same problems as us who have never touched any 5-ar inhibitors but have messed up hormones from historectomies, orchiectomies, HRT even pregnancy.

#52

Cap 100% recovery is BS. I donā€™t believe these hollow claims. Have you ever seen any blood reports? No there is none, it can never be.Donā€™t call recoveries, you can say there is some improvement or rather dealing better with sides with the help of diet, exercise, and supplements like Vitamin D3, B1 ,B12 etc. So donā€™t make BS lies here. If someone is not posting here any more donā€™t assume he is recovered. I know few who have not recovered even 10 -12 years after but they donā€™t post here either.

#53

Changes in the human testis during anti-androgen treatment: histological, morphological and enzyme-histochemical investigations on testicular biopsies

Biopsies were performed on the testes of 33 sexual delinquents, 16-68 years of age, who were being treated with cyproterone acetate (c.a.). The daily c.a. dosage ranged from 50 to 200 mg (in 2 cases 300 mg), and the length of treatment varied from 6 months to 4 1/2 years. The biopsy samples were subjected to histological, histometrical, and enzyme-histochemical tests. A highly significant decrease of 18.5% in the tubular diameter was observed (p .001). The Leydig cells became atrophic and there was a decrease in the lipoids stored in them. A decrease in the activity of the enzyme 3 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase was observed. Extensive testicular damage was noted in 3 cases, for 2 of which explanations were found. A marked decrease in spermatogenesis can be effected with daily dosages of 50 mg of c.a. No irreversible damage to the testes was found to be caused by c.a. use, and normal spermatogenesis resumes after discontinuation of the medication.
`
Extensive testicular damage? Explanations found? No irreversible damage? Sounds a little fishy to me. Of course this is a small group and the majority of people who took fin are ok after they quit soā€¦ We are in the minority. Could something l

#54

Abstract
An attempt was made to study the effects of cyproterone acetate (CA), an antiandrogen, on the testicular activity of the frog Rana temporaria, employing histological and histochemical methods. Each treated frog received a total dose of 4 mg during the period of 4 weeks. Light-microscopic examinations revealed that CA blocked the formation of spermatids and mature sperms; however, the early stages of spermatogenesis, i.e. proliferation and development of spermatogonia and spermatocytes, remained unaffected. CA caused interstitial tissue disruption and degeneration, and led to the shrinkage of Leydig cells; the drug stopped the production of lipoidal material in the interstitial tissues. Also, a loss of testicular weight was documented in the frogs treated with CA.

This is in frogs and using a full anti androgen thought I would post it anyway while on the topic,

#55

Why was I full of energy, high libido, muscular, alpha male+ for 9 years while on the drug? 9 years or 3,285 days completely unaffected. Why was it only after quitting that these supposed anti-androgen affects occur?

#56

FT has you condition changed ever since you stopped Fin? what are you doing to feel better?

#57

Finatruth : That is a good question. I mentioned sounder here he is same as you. He used it for 10 years and said it was almost it was like super man and he gained hair. He got screwed up after he quit. He has different symptoms than what I have mentioned on this thread. But I think this proves one thing that even if our 5ar was not working well you can still be very virile and potent. When you are on finasteride you could probably assume it is also effecting your neurosteroids but yet you were still fine.

For me and many others here : we got the issue while on finasteride never to recover. It was like one day a wave of estrogen hit me and sent my test too low. We know there are many people who took this drive for 5 to 10 days and then got hit with sides. Sounder had very different symtoms to me and different blood profile.

Sounder said he has very low blood estrogen levels which is not very normal on this forum. If you look at blood results on this forum you will find many / most have normal estradiol levels despite very low free T.

You really need to look at your symptoms with a magnifying glass - every single symptom you have along with every blood test you have. You need to trial various hormonal therapies and observer very carefully the way your body reacts to these hormones. Once you have this information you need to draw a conclusion. I have done this myself here. And there is no other more suitable logical conclusion to come from than my e2 is too high for my free t and this is causing all my problems. This is congruent with all my bloods, symptoms and tests. As for the root cause being in the testis I am still unsure of this. But I am pretty sure i can rule our slow 5ar, androgen insensitivity etc etc. I do not think we are some kind of genetic freaks where all of our cells have been reprogrammed all thought our body to respond different to androgens. My experiences indicate this not to be the case. If it is indeed the case - I think our prospects are very bleak but, I reckon that it is an issue in the hormone producing glands. I think if i lost my testies and injected T there is a significant chance I would be fine. If not, at least we will know it is not an issue in the testicles. And I guess I wont be that much worse of apart from having to inject T forever and not being able to have kids.

#58

I used it for 13 years completely unaffected.

I was superman on it.

#59

it is weird. this lady made a post just like you guys she is going through a lot issue, just like pfs.
please read her post

Yeah I do want to taper off of that chemical over time. The doctor doesnā€™t believe me about the Mirena theory. She is treating me for endometriosis.

When I had the Mirena for 5 years i had no side effects except weight gain and cystic acne. It was when it was removed that my body exploded, essentially. So yes, putting me back on that same chemical made me feel better but I do want to attempt to wean myself off of it over time and hopefully keep the withdrawal symptoms from appearing.

I just feel so much better! I honestly thought i was dying for about 6 months. I know being on the pill isnā€™t the answer, but at least itā€™s a happy reprieve!