DHT deprivation leading to testicular changes.

General Discussion
#21

There is some interesting reading here -

endotext.org/male/male17/maleframe17.htm

Can someone else have a read thing this and see if they can glean anything useful.

“In normal adult men the normal range of serum estradiol levels is 18-40 pg/mL (66-147 pmol/L). Approximately 50 μg of estradiol are daily produced: about 5-10 μg in the testis (10 to 20%) and the remaining 40-45 μg (80 to 90%) in peripheral tissues (adipose tissue, muscle, breast, brain liver and bone) in which the aromatase enzyme is expressed (82).”

#22

I have spoken to about 5 people who have done testicular ultraounds including myself with nothing found. Mark.r.d does mention something about calcificationns.

Anyway it seems those with estrogen secreting turmors have the same issues as us -

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6795227

“Leydig cell tumor with gynecomastia: hormonal effects of an estrogen-producing tumor.”

“The E2 produced by the tumor appeared to suppress gonadotropin secretion. The plasma testosterone and gonadotropin levels rose within 7 days after the removal of tumor, and the gynecomastia began to decrease.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2483322/

“Clinical examination found gynecomastia and no testicular mass. Hormonal levels and tumor markers were normal.”

"Hormonal levels and tumor markers were normal. " < — THIS

“Hormonal levels were normal: testosterone, 4 ng/mL (normal range, 3–10 ng/mL); estradiol, 51 pg/mL (normal range, 20–60 pg/mL); follicles-timulating hormone (FSH), 7 mU/mL (normal, < 8 mU/mL); luteinizing hormone (LH), 5 mU/mL (normal, < 5.8 mU/mL). Tumor markers were normal.” Hormones in range - estrogen in range despite low test.

"Leydig cell tumors and Leydig cell hyperplasia represent 3% of testicular tumors; however, the relative percentage of Leydig cell hyperplasia is difficult to determine. These tumors affect adults in 75% of cases (often between 25–35 years of age) and children in 25% of cases (often between 5–10 years of age).6,7

In adults, because of activity in Leydig cell aromatase that transforms testosterone to estradiol, signs of hypogonadism are dominated by (a) a unilateral or bilateral asymmetric gynecomastia, which could precede by some months to several years the appearance of the tumor7; (b) an erectile dysfunction often associated with decrease of libido; and © infertility with oligo- or azoospermia."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1090360

“A 28-year-old man with evidence of feminization was demonstrated after 4 years of investigation to have a estrogen-secreting interstitial cell tumor. Such feminizing neoplasms are uncommon, only 37 having been described. They are usually benign and are characterized by gynecomastia, a testicular mass and, with lesser frequency, by decreased libido and potency and poor semen quality.”

“Postoperatively, the gynecomastia regresses, the excessive levels of estrogen return to normal, libido improves, and the sperm count increases to normal.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20096213

“Feminizing adrenal tumours are very rare. We report the clinical and hormonal study of a case, a 49 years old male, since his first consultation until his death 6 years after the initial diagnosis, and a review of the other 5 Spanish patients previously published. His initial symptoms were gynecomastia and libido decrease, with increase of plasmatic and urinary oestrogen levels, plasma testosterone near low normal level and a right adrenal gland tumour that”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23194277

“The patient presented with right epididymal swelling for 3 months without endocrine manifestations, including gynaecomastia and decreased libido.”

bccancer.bc.ca/HPI/CancerMan … igCell.htm

Sertoli (sex cord) cell tumours are more prone to produce estrogens than androgens and typical markers AFP, bHCG are normal. Again, gynecomastia can occur or decreased libido.

ijpmonline.org/article.asp?i … st=Agrawal

This tumor has a capacity for estrogenic hypersecretion and gynecomastia is seen in 30% cases. [1] Inferior vena cava thrombosis has also been reported. [2] Adults may present with decreased libido

michvet.com/Client%20Educati … tumors.pdf

– Dogs, not humans.

Hair and skin changes may include symmetrical hair loss, brittle hair, poor hair
regrowth after shaving the coat, thin skin, hyperpigmentation (darkening of the skin) and a
stripe of red inflammation along the midline of the prepuce. Other signs include nipple
elongation, mammary enlargement, penile atrophy, preputial swelling and sagging, testicular
atrophy of the unaffected (noncancerous testicle), prostatic atrophy or enlargement, and
anemia (pale gums). Behavioral changes may include squatting to urinate (versus hiking a
limb), reduced sex drive and attraction of other male dogs.

Input ??

#23

Here are are some good case studies of people with estrogen dominance

Look at the comment down the bottom.

  • Loss of libido
  • Joint pin
  • Headaches
  • Digestion issues
  • Axniety
  • Depression
  • Fat gain
  • Ringing in ears
  • Fatigue
  • Brain fog

And much more

#24

We have probably all come across pmgamer18s post on the net he seems to be on all the hormone forums and has been for many years - Here is what he says high e2 may cause

allthingsmale.com/forum/show … STOSTERONE

Here is a list of some of the symptoms of high E2 (you don’t have to
experience all of the symptoms to know that you have high E2):

  • Depression
  • Trouble reaching an orgasm
  • No erections while sleeping (i.e. “night wood” or “morning wood”)
  • Anxiety
  • Panic Attacks
  • Prostate problems
  • Gynecomastia
  • Water Retention
  • Dizziness/Vertigo
  • Increased Blood Pressure
  • Decreased Libido
  • ED
  • When penis is limp, it doesn’t hang low (it seems to try to crawl back up)
  • Asthma like issues (due to increased water retention around the lungs)
  • Trouble sleeping at night - waking up multiple times per night
  • Lack of Libido
  • Crying while watching TV shows/movies
  • Easier to get angry (think PMS)
  • Insulin Resistance (getting tired after eating a meal - if left
    untreated, it can lead to Type II Diabetes)
  • Larger stomach
  • Redness on the face and/or chest
  • Feeling hotter than everybody else
  • Thinner skin/bleeding easier

anabolicminds.com/forum/male-ant … ed-me.html

Estradiol between 15 to 20. High Estradiol will kill your sex life give you ED, Brain Fog, Fatigue, mess with your Thyroid and can give you bad Anxiety even Panic Attacks, sore and Hard Nipples, Gyno and even stop you from reaching an orgasm.

As I said me has mentioned it many times that it is common that we see see a shift in the T/E ratio here. I think that is enough to cause our problems. When I first recovered on arimidex I was taking a really small dose. I think it was like 0.1mg per day.

#25

My theory, all along. Go read any study regarding neurosteroids and there affect on brain damage or the CNS. In all these studies they USE finasteride to completely destroy the protective affects of progesterone and other neurosteroids. I feel there is an imbalance at the progesterone receptor site in favor of estrogen. In Blanca of the receptor leads to inability to produce or covert Allopregenalone. Everything is downregulated including thyroid, gene expression and more. There is also a cycle to all of this that’s why I believe it’s not DHT I see insensitivity

#26

Are you saying allopregnanolone isn’t being made because progesterone is not binding to the progesterone receptor?

#27

Can you please chase your tails in terms of of how neurosteroids nullify the effects of testosterone on the skin, muscles and hair follicles just like E2 on another thread? I think it is not a very productive conversation. It is clear the issue affects all parts of the body including the brain. People with estrogen dominance feel the exact same cognitive effects as we do in terms of depression, anxiety brain fog, memory and speech issues. In this thread I am only really interested in determining a common link between the systemic effects. People chased their tail on the whole prostate thing when it is well know high e2 will mess with the prostate. Please keep it relevant here. Thanks.

#28

Dgreene- yes, perhaps over time (years) it becomes rebalanced but very very slowly, disgustingly slowly.

Vincenttv- that’s what I am saying, we suffer from estrogen dominance bc of the imbalance of estrogen to progesterone resulting in lower thyroid functioning as well as lower testosterone. There are also many links between estrogen dominance and down regulated gene expression in all forms of tissue.

#29

Many including me have tried TRT with prog without any success many - most have good prog levels me too. This theory here is centerd around the problem being at the hormone producing gland rather than having any changes all thought our body which is really in my experience very unlikely.

#30

Can anyone reading this do a very good inspection of testicles for any small bumps or changes. Slide the testicle up and down between the fingers and I assume all sides should be smooth. A few people have already reported bumps but I do not expect that we would necessarily have palpable masses for this to be true. Thanks.

#31

Sorry Finatruth, but your statement makes no sense and shows that you don’t have an understanding of medical science. That’s why many doctors and the researchers involved don’t want input from people on this forum, because many here don’t know medical science.

#32

Dgreene- I’m smarter than you on your best day and my worst. Pull any transcript from any academic institution and I’ll prove it.

1 Like
#33

Read up on estrogen dominance and lower thyroid functioning

#34

Keep your bickering on another thread - yes estrogen can effect TBH, Transcortin and SHBG which can cause a wide range of symtoms as I said here my free cortisol is bottom of the range, tested 2 times but total cortisol always good in the top 1/3rd of range. Syptoms all correlate with free low cortisol. Anyway that is why many people have varied symptoms.

#35

by megazoid, Jan 19, 2007 12:00AM
OK Guy’s, i found this thread by accident and i thought it would be important to reply. First off i want everyone to relax and stay calm and i don’t want anyone to think about suicide, i suffered the exact same as you guy’s did but no one to give me any kind of answers (i am only 24 myself). I have the answers you guy’s need, so please let me explain my own story first.

When i was born, i was a healthy, young baby boy. However it wasn’t noticed that i had an undescended testicle (right testicle) until i was 2 year’s old. The testicle was brought down but this in turn caused the testicle to remain small and atrophied (dysfunctional). My left testicle took over throughout puberty and became large and fully functional. I went through puberty as normal but my left testicle gained a huge size (2/3 inches) to compensate for the other ‘lost’ testicle.

6 months ago i got an injury to my left testicle which caused a varicocele to form (enlargement/swelling of the veins), this in turn causes blood pooling issues int he testicle and over-heating to occur (along with abnormal hormonal parameters). Over a course of 3 months my testicle atrophied and my sperm count dropped. During this time i just didn’t “feel right” (so to speak) and wasn’t getting morning erections or having a libido. I had joint and muscle pains and all manner of skin changes occured (more so on my penis like you guy’s - skin thinning, maybe a little dry at times). What had happened was a hormonal inbalance had set in and caused low testosterone (hypogonadism). Like you guy’s my penis shrunk up really bad and my testicles were always very tight and didn’t hang as normal.

Flaccid penis size is controlled by the free testosterone levels available in the blood. DHT (A hormone that gives us “all things male”) has a large degree of control over the penilie tissues (the “elasticness” of them for example). The Testosterone to estrogen ratio controls how “hard” your erections get and if this got knocked out (due to lack of testosterone for example) then getting erections will be tough and your flaccid penis will hang alot smaller and lifeless at times.

Morning wood is an indication of the correct ratio of Testosterone to Estrogen (E2). Lack of morning wood in almost all cases means either excess estrogen or low testosterone.

Imagine the flaccid penis like a balloon. When there isn’t enough testosterone in the blood to support it “shrinks” up. You guy’s need to be aware that unless you live with this for like 4/5 year’s the penis dosen’t “actually” shrink and lose tissue (it’s already developed muscular tissue) but just shrinks up into itself.

You WILL get your penis size and erection ability back when you get your hormones in order.

#36

So I have really low E2, 10.2 on a range from 10-60 pg/mL.

So could I still in fact have high Estrogen? (I havent got it tested in over a year, but it was high then) .

How would Progesterone relate to people with low E2?

#37

FeedMeMore :

First you took saw palmetto. So you are in the minority of people here, we may say SP and Fin cause similar problems but we do not know if it is the exact same issue for now. Second - are you experiencing the symptoms mentioned here for high e2?

Second: You say you have very low e2

Your results are :

Estrogens Total: 69 pg/mL [40-115]
Estradiol (Roche ECLIA methodology): 14.0 pg/mL [7.6-42.6]

Androgens :

Total Testosterone Serum: 374 ng/dL [348-1197]
Free Testosterone (Direct): 10.8 pg/mL [9.3-26.5]
DHT: 27 ng/dL [16-74]

Too me it looks like your restrogens are not low - your estradiol is double the min range and total is mid range. Now if your compare this to your testosterone levels they are hovering just above the range so I am going to say you are estrogen dominant. How can you even have mid level estrogens with such low free test? Such low free testosterone should mean very low total estrogen levels. Which you do not have. One factor I am not too sure about is what estrogen levels regular men have when they are suppresed via steroids? I am not sure if the body can or does up regulate aromotase to protect the tissues in this envionment or not. Or do men who are suppresed have very low T and very low E - When I was suppresed my E was in range and T was way below range. If anyone knows please tell us.

The other factor is binding hormones looking at total estrogens means nothing if you dont know how much is free. I do not know how to calculated it with SHBG - siliva test is best option. My total e2 was top 1/3rd of range but free siliva was over range. You can order a siliva test yourself without a doctor.

How many e2 tests have you done?

#38

Won’t the gene expression studies indicate whether or not we have estrogen dominance? Estrogen dominance should result in high expression of estrogen responsive genes.

#39

Ok we need to move this idea forward. I have a few ideas how we can do this -

1 --------------

More people order siliva tests you can
USA - zrtlab.com/
Australia - www.dorevitch.com.au / They took over Pathlabs

Test your free hormones we mostly want to know the free androgens vs free estrogens.

2 --------------

If Mark.r.d is legit which I am 90 percent sure he is more people need to give deca and TRT a try and monitor results and symptoms carefully. He is using 100mg/100mg

3 ---------------

Take some anti estrogens like arimidex and do a before and while siliva test. We need to focus on what is happening with androgens and estrogens. Scaredtodeath is the only guy I know that tested himself on just arimidex and his total estrogen was higher and free estrogen way higher.

4---------------

Check your testicles for nodules and bumps check carefully - For me I didnt knotirce I had 2 untill I took erase and they hurt like hell. But I am definatly not saying that we should expect that eveyone has palpable changes in their testicles.

5----------------

Biopsy? I have no real idea about this but in studies I have seen that they can look at the cells under the microscope and also can determine the ammount of estrogen in the samples. - Might be hard to find anyone with knowledge on this.

I dont know what else for know but both scared to deaths and mark.r.ds results are very interesting and they point to the same result estrogen dominance - Mark.r.d said he tried TRT without deca and it offered no releaf. And as the study I posted states people with AES need to take progestin based androgens. Like mark.r.d is doing.

#40

Is TRT something you have to take for the rest of your life ?