DHT deprivation leading to testicular changes.

So over the last 5 years I have done so many experiments on myself. I have tried almost everything.

These experiments, blood tests and observations of symptoms have taught me quite a whole lot. If I had not done these any theories I would have devised would have been very far of the mark much like many of the theories flying around here.

I made a post on here about 2 years ago saying I was recovered. I was convinced at that time that this was all behind me. I felt great relief. I knew others usually don’t recover for long but i felt sure I was back to my former self. At the time I was on a very low dose of arimidex. My libido was back in full wing, woods were good orgasims were very pleasurable, well-being was great.

The recovery only lasted a few days and I was back to living with lifeless dick. But it taught me that the body is able to function correctly. Since then I have tried many anti estrogens and recovered a number of times to varying degrees but last time I got sick as when taking anti estrogens.

I have also been on trt many times - My observations are that when taking TRT without HCG positive effects are seen for a short period of time. In fact right after the first few injections I would always get spontaneous wood. This lasts about a week then the injections do little. And in fact they make me worse after a week. But in the first week i feel improved sense of well being and energy.

When using HCG with TRT I never got any of those spontanious woods after injecting. I started injecting HCG before the testosterone.

When taking high doses of TRT with HCG new body hair grew on my face and chest - This grew consistently if I was still on high doses today I would look like a gorilla. But the high doses gave me cystic back acne and not much improvement in muscles or fat loss around the hips - fin gave me love handles.

When using TRT without HCG and with anti estrogens I was able to increase strength. I could never get my lunges above about 90 kilos. Within one week i went to about 130 and it was easy. Before 90 would almost kill me. This shows me that my muscles are able to respond given the right hormonal situation. They are not androgen resistant.

I learnt a good lesson when quiting TRT while not using HCG. My test went to 1.1 (2.5-8) and blood estrogen was in range but low in range. All my PFS symptoms got SO MUCH worse. I got serious depression. I was unable to exercise. I have been consistently exercising for 10 years and this was the only time that I HAD to stop. My appetite got even more screwed up. Digestion issues were very bad. Anxiety was terrible. Well being totally gone. I I am lucky I did not kill myself. I also got a a new symptom which is not usually a problem that was brain fog. This was a hard lesson but it taught me androgens are ceartanly the key here. It took about 2 months of hell for me to get back to my PFS limp dick normal. Since I have had PFS I have had sex many times but pretty much by force. When I was going though this hell I could not have sex at all. I had pretty much 0 morning/night wood.

On that note - I have had the best morning wood in my life when taking anti estrogens. At one point I though I would have to go to the doctor because my dick wouldn’t even go down after I pissed and went back to bed.

Now on to the blood tests.

When I was on trt the last time without HCG I was taking very small doses - 15mg every 2 days or even less. This did not really help me with anything much. I did some blood and saliva testing on these doses. In order to get my free testosterone in range my siliva (free) estradiol must be over range - estrone was also over range too. This shows me that there is an imbalance between estrogen and testosterone. Which mew and many will say is true without a doubt. You can see that our symptoms we experience are all common issues seen with estrogen dominance.

members.tripod.com/nettie_mae/ar … inance.htm

So why can’t we just take anti estrogens and experience muscle growth, best woods in our life, increased well being, awesome orgasms and a libido that will make you want to take a trip to your local brothel(I had this on arimidex)?

Good question - If estrogen was produced in our tissues at a stable rate we would just need to find the right dose of anti estrogens to slow this down, stay on that and we would be sweet like many who are on TRT.

From what I understand anti estrogens can not inhibit all of the aromataze in the testicles so therefore when you lower estrogen in other tissues in your body your body starts to produce more LH and you produce another boat load of estrogen. A good example of this is scaredtodeaths blood tests. He took tests on a hearty dose of arimidex but his estrogen was higher and free estrogen a lot higher.

So I would say the estrogen produced in the testicles is very hard to control and that is why it seems almost impossible to get stable on anti estrogen’s. I guess that when you take them you are probably lowering estrogen too low in the areas of the brain and other parts of the body too. Because I think there is aromataze in all those areas and I am sure it is there for a reason. Disabling it is probably a bad idea. This would explain why arimidex can also make you feel like shit.

On here is a user named mark.r.d he says he has been using deca + test + hcg for over a year and has grown muscle got his libido and well being back. Is he legit? I added him on skype - He is not online much but i looked him up on facebook his skype pics match and his facebook pics match his story. He seems to have gained a fair bit of size a long with some bloat. Deca can not be converted to estrogen easily so perhaps he has been able to push up his anabolic hormones and keep his estrogen hormones somewhat at bay. Of course deca is not natural and has estrogenic metabolites it is not so androgeneic so you could never be 100 percent better on this reigeme. But I guess it may work for some. You will find reports around the net that deca kills some peoples libido while turns others into rapists.

I tried nandrolone phenyl prop - only a small dose but like trenbolone it gave me pains in the back - near my kidney or liver I guess so I never took any more - I have some decaonate but it lasts in your body so long - I do not really want to take it if it is going to give me organ pains.

During some of my brief recoveries pimples have shown up on the back of my shoulders - I used to get these always before PFS. They always disappear when I start feeling worse again.

This study talks a little about hormones and testicular development - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9154506 It is not that realated

But we know that if you are have a 5ar mutation you sexual organs will not develop properly - We see that DHT administration can cause growth and development of sexual organs and we see that some here get a twisted dick when their androgens are low.

I myself got a pain in my nut right at the point where I have a nodule when I was taking erase. I never had this nodule before fin. I did an ultrasound and it did not show up on there. But I am sure there is a nodule there - what is it - why does it hurt? Why do people report of extreme nut pain when taking finasteride- could pain mean damage is being done? That is the whole point of pain right? Or is the pain just a result of a change in LH - If that is the cause, does taking TRT with no HCG cause the same pain? Or does HCG cause this pain?

I believe our problems are in the glands that produce the hormones not the cells that receive the hormones themselves.

Some might say hormones are not that powerful this is rubbish. I posted a story on here of a woman on TRT who was on methyl test and and estrogen. Her doc took her off these and gave her just an estrogen patch. Suddenly she was bed ridden with anxiety, loss of muscle crushing fatigue and pretty much totally screwed up. After a few days she realized it was the hormones - switched back to her old hormones and was feeling better in hours.

If anyone else can draw any other rational conclusions based on my observations here I am all ears.

Note : When my new body hair was sprouting all over my chest and stomach on high dose TRT my drain was always clogged with hair from my head. This is a stable response.

Note 2: Low dose TRT - 15mg every 2 days - even though it did not help much it fixed my body odor issue that was caused by finasteride. Ever since I took fin my body odor smells very strong and a bit wierd. This is also a sign of estrogen dominance. I will still estrogen dominant on TRT but maybe slightly less? On days I fell worse body odor is stronger. This change was stable on TRT.

Note 3: My free cortisol much like my free testosterone is very low. This is responsible for much of the low T symptoms like low body temp, anxiety, digestion issues, fatigue and more. I have tested total blood cortisol and it is always good in the range. You will find that estrogen dominance will mess up Cortisol Binding Globulin, Thyroid Binding Globulin and SHBG. As mentioned in one of the links I posted. In my mind this makes sense how can you have high catabolic hormone levels if your anabolic hormone levels are too low?

1 Like

How do the low levels of 5a reduced neurosteroids found in the csf fit into this?

Thank you Tim1911…there wouldn’t be a symposium, studies, and findings indicating low levels of 5ar metabolites if this wasn’t the area research was headed.

TIM - Could you post me a link to those findings?

As far ad adiol G goes - I have posted a link before about this. A normal aged male who was about 70 years old was on TRT. He changed his regime and ended up with higher estradiol. His adiol g fell in half when his e2 went up. If you read about people in TRT you can see that TRT will not work if e2 is too high. If TRT does not work I am assume there is less androgen thoughput leading to less adiol-g. The thing is - most of these guys take a little arimidex and are fine. They may need to mess around with the dose for a while but usually they are on their way. This is not the cause for us. The same thing happens with steoird users. They take some arimidex and they are usually fine.

NEUROACTIVE STEROID LEVELS IN POST-FINASTERIDE PATIENTS
SHOWING PERSISTENT SEXUAL SIDE EFFECTS AND
ANXIOUS/DEPRESSIVE SYMPTOMATOLOGY

The enzyme 5α-reductase converts neuroactive steroids, such as testosterone (T) and
progesterone (PROG) into their metabolites. Thus, T is converted into dihydrotestosterone
(DHT) and subsequently into 5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol (3α-diol) or 5α-androstane-
3β,17β-diol (3β-diol), PROG into dihydroprogesterone (DHP) and then into
tetrahydroprogesterone (THP) or isopregnanolone [6]. An inhibitor of this enzyme, the
finasteride, is used for androgenic alopecia (male pattern hair loss). Observations
performed in a subset of man taking finasteride for male pattern hair loss seem to indicate
that sexual dysfunction as well as anxious/depressive symptomatology may occur [1,2,7,8].
Very important, persistent sexual side effects as well as depression persist despite the
discontinuation of the treatment [3-5]. A possible hypothesis to explain depression
symptoms after finasteride treatment might be impairment in the levels of neuroactive
steroids [9]. To this aim, neuroactive steroids levels were evaluated in paired plasma and
CSF samples obtained from 3 male patients who received finasteride for the treatment of
androgenic alopecia and that after drug discontinuation still show long-term sexual side
effects as well as anxious/depressive symptomatology. Data obtained by liquid
chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry show a general decrease of neuroactive steroid
levels, and particularly of 5α-reduced metabolites of PROG and T in CSF and plasma of
post-finasteride patients. The present results confirm that an impairment of neuroactive
steroid levels, associated to depression symptoms, is present in androgenic alopecia
patients despite the discontinuation of the finasteride treatment.

dafml.unito.it/anatomy/panzi … ctBook.pdf

Thank you for that.

Well neuro steroids are a complicated and not very well understood area. I do not think we should focus on this now as we need to understand what is affecting the functioning of the less complicated tissues of our body. Like why some people have gyno, fat hips, muscle loss. These tissues are much more simple to study and there is lots of research has been done on hormones and body composition, so we have something to go on.

If I could work out why my muscle tissues are not growing like they did before finasteride and why I now gain fat around my waste I think I would have an answer to this issue. Once this area is solved I am sure the same issues are affecting our brain function and neuro steroids.

I am quite sure that If i could start my hairloss again and increase lean body mass loose my love handles my brain would function as it used to.

I would not have a clue how different hormonal states in the body effects neurosteroid levels. Depression and anxiety are a common issue with low test in users who do not have PFS. I can not tell you what their neurosteroid levels are like but hormonal changes can bring about pfs symptoms and further hormonal changes with PFS can make all symptoms worse.

I do not know of how neurosteoid levels effect body mass when injecting testosterone. So I am not very interested in looking into this issue at all as I know I have recovered my state of well being temporally by manipulating sex hormones.

I would like to hear from anyone as to what are the flaws in the conclusions I have drawn from my observations.

Vincent the problem that is stated is there is low 5a metabolites from T and Prog. To me this says there is a problem with 5ar2.
Gyno, hips, muscle loss could all be explained by this as these are things that would be expected to happen while taking finasteride (creating a problem with 5ar2).

For me that does not add up.

Once we take our first pill of finasteride we can assume that our dht starts to fall. By the end of week 1 we could assume that out dht is quite low. But yet, in the first 2-3 weeks on finasteride I didn’t have many problems at all just sweat on my nose. After a few weeks I saw hair sprouting back on my temples. I am pretty sure at this time i didnt have any libido loss or numb dick issues. I can assume my DHT was low then as I was actually adding more hair. At the moment I and not adding new hairs to my head. All the sprouts I got from fin are long gone. If everybody got these terrible sides from day 1 they would have quiet after a few days. But this is not the case.

You and me know that thousands around the world are now taking finasteride and reducing the 5ar with no dramatic side effects right? Many are able to maintain their hair with it. So they must have lowered 5ar activity - do they have PFS like issue most no.

You would not need to look at neuro stroids to prove this but If I look at my blood tests. When on HCG and some transdermal T and a tiny dose of arimidex 0.05 every e2d…

Free T - 1004 ( 260 - 740) pmol/L
Total DHT - 5.5 (0.7 - 5.1) nomol/L

To me this looks like the conversion to DHT is fine. When my free T is over range my total DHT is over range.

Then there is the issue taking anti estrogens. I have read a number of studies which show large increase in DHT when inhibiting aromatze which makes perfect sense. So if we had “sluggish” 5ar a low dose anti estrogen should be a good stable treatment option. But we all know that treatment with anti estrogens is far from stable.

I think looking at neurosteroids complicates this picture as there is not enough data on it. We need to look at why people have gyno, no hair loss, female pattern fat gain, and have a hard time gaining muscle like before they took fin. This area of science is very well understood.

So you essentially think the scientists and doctors at numerous universities are wasting their time and that you have a better understanding of what is going on?

There is not enough consistency in side effects for either us to be right. I mean you list your problems and i don’t really fall under the same umbrella, as in i still have a mans body, normal genitals etc.

I have devastating brain fog, no libido but respond well to cialis, others have no brain fog and don’t respond to cialis.

The neurosteroid information is extremely important, it shows that the steroid hormones are not being broken down properly, this is a huge development.

There is a big X in this condition, something that has made us go haywire in our own individual way, something for the researches to find. pfsfoundation.org/donate/

The next couple of studies will show changes in our gene expression that correspond to our symptoms. They may find that some of us have a slightly different problem depending on the altered gene expression that we show. The more and sooner we donate, the sooner the study starts, the sooner we have answers.

Some men can have low testosterone and high estrogen and still have libido. Eveyone is different in that regard. Some will get brainfog more easily with hormonal changes. Some will be predisposed to gyno some hip fat etc etc. I speak with one guy he says his libido is pretty good but his free test is bottom of the range and he has a whole bunch of the low test high estrogen symptoms.

You talk about this study finding lowered neurosteroid metabolites - Compared to what? Low in relation to the hormone they are created from? Ie a low ratio? Or just low compared to other men?

I can almost bet that tim and eveyone here who have PFS do not have morning wood / nigh wood like they used to. I have asked this question to people with mostly brainfog and they have had changes in their nightwood. This is Usually related to test/estrogen balance hence when screwing with mine I can get the best night woods.

Before I used fin I would often wake up in the night my dick would be so hard that I would have a feeling i need to piss but I actually did not piss. Most days I would have to bend over to pee. I have only had this about 3 times since the onset of PFS. The same thing that is causing all my other symptoms is causing that and I do not know of a mechanism wherby neurosteroids lower the effects of testosterone on the muscle, and fat tissues.

As for brainfog. I have given myself brainfog from loweing my androgens even further when quitting TRT. Most/all of us have low body temps here. This is because as I said, messed up androgens / estrogens will screw with the binding hormones and will mess with thyroid and cortisol which will result in lowerd body temp. On that note I took cortisol and measured my body temp and it went right up to 37 degrees. But i felt worse because it will lower androgens further.

Sorry but I do not by this changes in gene expression stuff because I have no way to fit it in with my test results and observations. If someones is able to explain where my gene expression could have change which would result in my observations I would be happy to donate. For now I think my fatcells on my hips are regular fat cells and they will respond ok when I give them the right signals. I do not believe the gene expression in my fat cells changed over a few days. But I could be wrong.

You could convince me that gene expression in some cells? which ones? has let to low free testosterone which I have like many here and normal free estrogen levels? But I do not buy the lowerd 5ar2 - It just does not make sense.

If my fat cells have been reprogrammed I think I am fucked anyway, so I will just have to learn to accept this situation.

“So you essentially think the scientists and doctors at numerous universities are wasting their time and that you have a better understanding of what is going on?”

I have spent 10s of thousands of hours reading about all hormonal problems that people face. I have studied how people react to various steroids and hormones. I have tested things on myself that no doctor or researcher would dare or even be allowed to do. I have spent many years learning about this. I have read many books on the issue. I have seen the supposed best doctors in my country. And I can say yes, I know more than most. But yes, they have a lab and I do not. This does not mean they are going to know what to test, like most doctors and people on here they will have no idea. I have lots of hard evidence on this and I have to use it to draw a rational conclusion that fits the evidence. I am not willing to ignore or bend the evidence in order to support a theory. So if you are willing to help me work towards a theory that fits my observations. Please do.

Thanks.

Vincent like you i have read hundreds of studies related to this (hormones, enzymes, receptors, finasteride etc) but it comes down to the above quote. A lab is the only way this is going to be solved.

I still think it has to do with not-correctly working immune system. If it was due to 5AR deficiency we could have fixed it with DHT cream easily just as FTMs are doing fine. there are hundred of picture of changed/improved genitalia with bigger clitoris (I am sorry for this info) after application of DHT. we respond negatively to such application. I also posted the case of two Pakistani baby boys who were born with deficiency of 5AR enzymes as noted here

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1793798/

Two siblings of Pakistani origin, karyotype 46 XY, were born with predominantly female external genitalia with minute phallus, bifid scrotum, urogenital sinus, and palpable gonads. The older sibling at the age of 8 days showed an adequate testosterone response to human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) stimulation. The diagnosis of 5 alpha-reductase deficiency was made at age 6 years when no 5 alpha-reduced glucocorticoid metabolites were detectable in urine even after tetracosactrin (Synacthen) stimulation. In the younger sibling the diagnosis of 5 alpha-reductase deficiency was provisionally made at the early age of 3 days on the basis of high urinary tetrahydrocortisol (THF)/allotetrahydrocortisol (5 alpha-THF) ratio and this ratio increased with age confirming the diagnosis. Plasma testosterone: dihydrotestosterone (DHT) ratio before and after hCG stimulation was within normal limits at age 3 days but was raised at age 9 months. Topical DHT cream application to the external genitalia promoted significant phallic growth in both siblings and in the older sibling corrective surgery was facilitated. In prepubertal male pseudohermaphrodites with normal or raised testosterone concentrations, phallic growth in response to DHT cream treatment could be an indirect confirmation of 5 alpha-reductase deficiency.

Please read it again. they responded well to DHT application. More useful information can be found from this quote but I am not very good in Biology.
Also look at picture one at page 721 to see the clear effect of DHT application or click at the link ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article … 98/?page=2

also should we go for urinary tetrahydrocortisol (THF)/allotetrahydrocortisol (5 alpha-THF) ratio? based on
In the younger sibling the diagnosis of 5 alpha-reductase deficiency was provisionally made at the early age of 3 days on the basis of high urinary tetrahydrocortisol (THF)/allotetrahydrocortisol (5 alpha-THF) ratio and this ratio increased with age confirming the diagnosis

I also am sure this is immune system related based on my search for LDN (low dose naltrexone) treatmen. I searched for Accutane+naltrexone and found a guy (if any body interesed I can dig his mail to me) who had used LDN. I contacted him and he responded back to me advising me not to touch LDN. He said his immune system is crazy after Accuten and since LDN strengthens the immune system his all symptoms increased many times after using LDN.
I am working on calming down my immune system. It is no wonder I have not got any serious flue or fever or any viral /bacterial infection ever since this has started.

1 Like

Spstriken its obvious this is not straight up 5ar2 deficiency.

There are some studies showing that taking dht will lower testosterone more than it will lower estradiol. So if taken without testosterone you are unlikely to see any benefit. You will probably see more supression of testosterone and a worsening of side effects. But as I said on high dose TRT I grew body hair, more hair on my face, had to shave often and the hair on my head was falling out at a fast right. This kind of shows me all is ok with my DHT. If normal men without problems take DHT their genetals will not grow. WHen men get older they seem to see more hairloss and lowered libido is this due to MORE dht rather than less? And more estradiol along with more less free test? Now is it the androgen receptive cells around their body which are increasing the production of these metabolites or is it their leydig cells in their testicles?

We do not have normal or raised testosterone levels like in the study you mention.

I am not going to fall for this immune system talk without it being able to explain how it firts in with my observations.

If I injected some test right now I would have improvement in many ssmptoms I would probably get a wood within the hour. I would probably keep these improvements for about a week and then things would get woese. But if I stayed on HIGH dose TRT my body hair would grow like a gorilla, I would go bald but I would also get bad bad back acne and my estrogen would be way too high. This is totally consistent.

Low dose TRT wiill also change my body odor consistantly and low dose TRT will also stop the acne that I get on my ass that started about 1 or 2 years after fin.

All my trt experiences are repeatable and the results that I see are symptoms of hormonal imbalance. The question is where. As my results are so stable and repeatable I doubt any immune system theories.

Aromataze excess syndrome is an interesting one to look at in relation to this theory

-http://www.allthingsmale.com/forum/showthread.php?21017-Aromatase-excess-syndrome
No libido - High rt3 gyno - wood does not work well.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase_excess_syndrome
Treatment with with DHT or non aromatazble steroids - This brings to mind mark.r.d’s story gaining muscle and recovering on DECA. As for treatment with DHT - For me at least I do not think DHT is that much of a player in my side effects. If so I would have had all the PFS sides from day 1 that I took fin - I did not.

This causes problems with penile development and we see pyrones cases here.

TRT does obviously not work in people with these problems. I am unsure if these people are able to simply take an anti estrogen and feel better.