DHT deprivation leading to testicular changes.

General Discussion
#35

by megazoid, Jan 19, 2007 12:00AM
OK Guy’s, i found this thread by accident and i thought it would be important to reply. First off i want everyone to relax and stay calm and i don’t want anyone to think about suicide, i suffered the exact same as you guy’s did but no one to give me any kind of answers (i am only 24 myself). I have the answers you guy’s need, so please let me explain my own story first.

When i was born, i was a healthy, young baby boy. However it wasn’t noticed that i had an undescended testicle (right testicle) until i was 2 year’s old. The testicle was brought down but this in turn caused the testicle to remain small and atrophied (dysfunctional). My left testicle took over throughout puberty and became large and fully functional. I went through puberty as normal but my left testicle gained a huge size (2/3 inches) to compensate for the other ‘lost’ testicle.

6 months ago i got an injury to my left testicle which caused a varicocele to form (enlargement/swelling of the veins), this in turn causes blood pooling issues int he testicle and over-heating to occur (along with abnormal hormonal parameters). Over a course of 3 months my testicle atrophied and my sperm count dropped. During this time i just didn’t “feel right” (so to speak) and wasn’t getting morning erections or having a libido. I had joint and muscle pains and all manner of skin changes occured (more so on my penis like you guy’s - skin thinning, maybe a little dry at times). What had happened was a hormonal inbalance had set in and caused low testosterone (hypogonadism). Like you guy’s my penis shrunk up really bad and my testicles were always very tight and didn’t hang as normal.

Flaccid penis size is controlled by the free testosterone levels available in the blood. DHT (A hormone that gives us “all things male”) has a large degree of control over the penilie tissues (the “elasticness” of them for example). The Testosterone to estrogen ratio controls how “hard” your erections get and if this got knocked out (due to lack of testosterone for example) then getting erections will be tough and your flaccid penis will hang alot smaller and lifeless at times.

Morning wood is an indication of the correct ratio of Testosterone to Estrogen (E2). Lack of morning wood in almost all cases means either excess estrogen or low testosterone.

Imagine the flaccid penis like a balloon. When there isn’t enough testosterone in the blood to support it “shrinks” up. You guy’s need to be aware that unless you live with this for like 4/5 year’s the penis dosen’t “actually” shrink and lose tissue (it’s already developed muscular tissue) but just shrinks up into itself.

You WILL get your penis size and erection ability back when you get your hormones in order.

#36

So I have really low E2, 10.2 on a range from 10-60 pg/mL.

So could I still in fact have high Estrogen? (I havent got it tested in over a year, but it was high then) .

How would Progesterone relate to people with low E2?

#37

FeedMeMore :

First you took saw palmetto. So you are in the minority of people here, we may say SP and Fin cause similar problems but we do not know if it is the exact same issue for now. Second - are you experiencing the symptoms mentioned here for high e2?

Second: You say you have very low e2

Your results are :

Estrogens Total: 69 pg/mL [40-115]
Estradiol (Roche ECLIA methodology): 14.0 pg/mL [7.6-42.6]

Androgens :

Total Testosterone Serum: 374 ng/dL [348-1197]
Free Testosterone (Direct): 10.8 pg/mL [9.3-26.5]
DHT: 27 ng/dL [16-74]

Too me it looks like your restrogens are not low - your estradiol is double the min range and total is mid range. Now if your compare this to your testosterone levels they are hovering just above the range so I am going to say you are estrogen dominant. How can you even have mid level estrogens with such low free test? Such low free testosterone should mean very low total estrogen levels. Which you do not have. One factor I am not too sure about is what estrogen levels regular men have when they are suppresed via steroids? I am not sure if the body can or does up regulate aromotase to protect the tissues in this envionment or not. Or do men who are suppresed have very low T and very low E - When I was suppresed my E was in range and T was way below range. If anyone knows please tell us.

The other factor is binding hormones looking at total estrogens means nothing if you dont know how much is free. I do not know how to calculated it with SHBG - siliva test is best option. My total e2 was top 1/3rd of range but free siliva was over range. You can order a siliva test yourself without a doctor.

How many e2 tests have you done?

#38

Won’t the gene expression studies indicate whether or not we have estrogen dominance? Estrogen dominance should result in high expression of estrogen responsive genes.

#39

Ok we need to move this idea forward. I have a few ideas how we can do this -

1 --------------

More people order siliva tests you can
USA - zrtlab.com/
Australia - www.dorevitch.com.au / They took over Pathlabs

Test your free hormones we mostly want to know the free androgens vs free estrogens.

2 --------------

If Mark.r.d is legit which I am 90 percent sure he is more people need to give deca and TRT a try and monitor results and symptoms carefully. He is using 100mg/100mg

3 ---------------

Take some anti estrogens like arimidex and do a before and while siliva test. We need to focus on what is happening with androgens and estrogens. Scaredtodeath is the only guy I know that tested himself on just arimidex and his total estrogen was higher and free estrogen way higher.

4---------------

Check your testicles for nodules and bumps check carefully - For me I didnt knotirce I had 2 untill I took erase and they hurt like hell. But I am definatly not saying that we should expect that eveyone has palpable changes in their testicles.

5----------------

Biopsy? I have no real idea about this but in studies I have seen that they can look at the cells under the microscope and also can determine the ammount of estrogen in the samples. - Might be hard to find anyone with knowledge on this.

I dont know what else for know but both scared to deaths and mark.r.ds results are very interesting and they point to the same result estrogen dominance - Mark.r.d said he tried TRT without deca and it offered no releaf. And as the study I posted states people with AES need to take progestin based androgens. Like mark.r.d is doing.

#40

Is TRT something you have to take for the rest of your life ?

#41

yes unless some kind of underlying problem is found and fixed. It is obviously that our problem is not that we can not produce enough testosterone.

I forgot one more way to move this theory forward would be for someone here to try estradiol cream. If this makes all your symptoms worse then that can shed some more light on the subject. No need to be scared taking estradiol for a few days is not going to mess you up for good no way. I purchased estrogen cream to try this but could only get bi est and estriol cream these metabolites are not very pwerfull so not a very good test. you need to test estradiol. Can anyone do this? Thank you

#42

transgender.tribe.net/thread/ff2 … a5d418c0ac

Here is some talk of transgenders on estradiol some had balls removed some I think are taking spirolactane? Or whatever it is.

Reports on there are

  • Change in body odor - I have this. WHen I took trt it helped with this 80 percent. even though my e2 is too high on TRT.
  • No spontaions wood
  • No morning wood
  • Sperm going from Milky to clear - I still have this - WHen I was on TRT I took aromasin and it went from total water like to much more milky. When I feel a little better my seamen is more milky.
  • Loweing of metabolism - fatigue

I have spoken to some transgenders before and they said they are wired partly as a women so that is why estogen dominance could not effect their libido as much? I dont know about this.

But there is no shortage of women on estradiol having their wellbeing, libido, energy and life wipped out so estrogen dominance will screw both men and women. Of course eveyone does not get all the symtoms some guys here have ok libido with super low free test.

#43

A woman who has posted on propeciahelp had her skin fucked by spirolactone. Her user name was hoople.

1 Like
#44

---------------- Non fin user - Steroid user report

Let me explain my experience. I started a cycle of 400 per week enanthate after being off for 6 months. I had read where someone said you get leaner gains and better cut with you take an AI and there dosage was aromasin 12.5 mgs EOD. Well, LATER… I found out that that was a huge dose for someone who was prone to estrogen and gyno. So, me, who gets not signs of gyno, probably should have taken a lot less. Now… get this… I go to cut my 25 mg little pills in half and they would crumble when I tried to cut them in the pill cutter. So, I just take the whole thing and do that EOD. Sometimes, I would skip a day or two, one time didn’t take for like 4 days. Anyway, my gains were good and I was hornier than a toad. My hard-ons were massive (thought I’d throw that in). Then, I ran out of aromasin and I started to feel really bad in week 8. Actually, right before I quit, I think I was feeling weird in week 7. My gains started in week 4 (typically) and they came to a halt in week 8. I had depression, lost my gains, lost energy, lost libido and hard ons. I was a wreck. I would keep pinning and even jumped up to 600 mgs/wk of enanthate and I wouldn’t feel a thing. No libido, no strength, no gains. It was like pinning straight oil. I felt my blood pressure rise,… that’s it.

I had a long talk with sounder from here - He took fin for 10 years and quit, after 2 months of quiting he has a different set of problems and blood results. He sometimes has almost full libido and has lost all? the hair fin helped him keep. He has tested his e2 by blood (total) and it is usually low. And as a result he does not seem to have these too high e2 symtoms. But for most of us here I think this describes us well. And again there are more and more reports of great improvments reducing e2. Take a look at legendary’s thread, scaredtodeath ias back on anti estrogens and says he has improved. For me I think it is almost impossible for me to stabilize hormones with anti estrogen.

Who can do some of the tests mentioned here?

#45

Injecting 32.5 Testosterone-E E3D
Blood test taken just before the next shot
Free T 540 ( 260 - 740) pmol/L
Total T 27.1 ( 11.5 - 32.0 ) nmol/L
Blood E 112 ( <160 ) pmol/L

  • Felt like shit after a while on this dose works for about a week
  • no libido no appetite anxiety
  • Brick in the stomach feeling

So I try and reduce the dose
27.5 Test E E3D
Test done in the middle day between shots
SILIVA Tests
Estradiol(E2) 7 (<6) pmol/l
E1 (Estrone) 10 (9.6 - 20) pg/ml
E2 (Estriol) 27 (0.0 - 25) pg/ml

So we can assume that my free e2 would have been even higher on the larger dose despite free t being mid rang. So taking nothing free t bottom of range - total e2 mid range. Inject test get free T to mid rang free e is already over range. Tests show clearly that my problem is free e\t ratio. The question is which cells in my body are creating this damn estrogens. I am now thin, no excess fat. I am almost willing to bet my left or both testicles on this. At least if I am wrong we will rule out one thing?

#46

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11469540

Effects of androgen deprivation on the histology of adult chimpanzee testis.

After only 21 days of androgen-deprivation, chimpanzee testicular tissues exhibit specific atrophic changes, including the loss of contact between developing spermatocytes and between Sertoli cells and their developing spermatids, alterations in cell development resulting in missing maturation steps (elongating Sc and structurally complete Sd2 spermatids) and inappropriate cell associations, varying degrees of cytoplasmic degradation in germ cells, Sertoli cells, and Leydig cells, and a tubular lumen obscured by masses of sloughed primary and secondary spermatocytes and what appear histologically to be Sb1 and Sd1 spermatids.

This seems to be pretty important!

#47

That really sucks, I wonder if its the same with tissue of the whole region.

Either way, for the love of god, donate to the PFS foundation, no one will discover it on their own here, we know that. It’s been years of people thinking they can fix it on their own with rare doubtful successes.

Has anyone noticed that the people who recover have very few posts? I have yet to see one of the long time posters trying to battle this post a recovery. I think ihatepropecia702 is the only one I can think of. These “recoveries” mysteriously pop out of nowhere from “lurkers”. Makes me think they didn’t have it as bad or they’re just fake.

Again, donate to the PFS foundation, the more money we get, the sooner the studies will be done, the more likely we are to find out whats wrong and how to treat it. If anyone here thinks they are more likely to solve a problem than MDs and PhDs with a years of experience, a wealthy of knowledge that people here lack, and access to laboratories and scientific technology we don’t have access to, well then you are just delusional.

#48

Please do not pollute this thread with unrelated content. For anyone that has any ideas please provide your input. If you can do some of the tests mentioned that would be great. I can not do anything now as I am in the philippines the mail takes months to arrive if it does at all. I am thinking back of flying back to Australia for a couple of months to see if I can get this looked at. And do some more free e2 tests before trt after first injection and after a week or 2.

#49

landesbioscience.com/journal … 1748429188

Intratesticular Site of Aromatization
in the Diseased Testis

For example, in an adult patient with Klinefelter’s syndrome
(KS), aromatase immunostaining is evident in Leydig cells and
Sertoli cells.56 The increase in the number of aromatization sites
in this patient suggests a higher increase in the androgen to estrogen conversion, as supported by the fact that this patient presents
low bioavailable testosterone and relatively high serum estradiol
levels.

While no data on biological activity was available from this
study, others have reported that aromatase is four times higher in
testes of men with KS

– relatively high being compared to free t.

#50

There are a few older members who recovered, like Mitch, John Coleman, reason, searchofhealth, mrmoskowitz, etc. I’ve also seen many recovery stories from people at the 2-3 year mark. Always keep in mind that the recovery section is sparse because 1. most recovery posts on the forum are not moved there and 2. most people who recover never post about it, or were never members of this forum in the first place.

That’s off topic so that’s all I’ll say about it. Just wanted to point that out to keep up hope.

#51

Some may say all our problems are due to neurosteroids etc etc but all our problems can be explained by low androgens.

  • “I actually developed panic attacks right after the first orchiectomy for which I’ve had to take clonazepam for the last two years to control. Looking back, even though the test back then showed my testosterone in the “normal” range, I’m quite positive it was actually low for me.”

www.tc-cancer.com/forum/showthread.php/ … -questions

You will find so many women and men across the net that have the same problems as us who have never touched any 5-ar inhibitors but have messed up hormones from historectomies, orchiectomies, HRT even pregnancy.

#52

Cap 100% recovery is BS. I don’t believe these hollow claims. Have you ever seen any blood reports? No there is none, it can never be.Don’t call recoveries, you can say there is some improvement or rather dealing better with sides with the help of diet, exercise, and supplements like Vitamin D3, B1 ,B12 etc. So don’t make BS lies here. If someone is not posting here any more don’t assume he is recovered. I know few who have not recovered even 10 -12 years after but they don’t post here either.

#53

Changes in the human testis during anti-androgen treatment: histological, morphological and enzyme-histochemical investigations on testicular biopsies

Biopsies were performed on the testes of 33 sexual delinquents, 16-68 years of age, who were being treated with cyproterone acetate (c.a.). The daily c.a. dosage ranged from 50 to 200 mg (in 2 cases 300 mg), and the length of treatment varied from 6 months to 4 1/2 years. The biopsy samples were subjected to histological, histometrical, and enzyme-histochemical tests. A highly significant decrease of 18.5% in the tubular diameter was observed (p .001). The Leydig cells became atrophic and there was a decrease in the lipoids stored in them. A decrease in the activity of the enzyme 3 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase was observed. Extensive testicular damage was noted in 3 cases, for 2 of which explanations were found. A marked decrease in spermatogenesis can be effected with daily dosages of 50 mg of c.a. No irreversible damage to the testes was found to be caused by c.a. use, and normal spermatogenesis resumes after discontinuation of the medication.
`
Extensive testicular damage? Explanations found? No irreversible damage? Sounds a little fishy to me. Of course this is a small group and the majority of people who took fin are ok after they quit so… We are in the minority. Could something l

#54

Abstract
An attempt was made to study the effects of cyproterone acetate (CA), an antiandrogen, on the testicular activity of the frog Rana temporaria, employing histological and histochemical methods. Each treated frog received a total dose of 4 mg during the period of 4 weeks. Light-microscopic examinations revealed that CA blocked the formation of spermatids and mature sperms; however, the early stages of spermatogenesis, i.e. proliferation and development of spermatogonia and spermatocytes, remained unaffected. CA caused interstitial tissue disruption and degeneration, and led to the shrinkage of Leydig cells; the drug stopped the production of lipoidal material in the interstitial tissues. Also, a loss of testicular weight was documented in the frogs treated with CA.

This is in frogs and using a full anti androgen thought I would post it anyway while on the topic,