Cortisol management the key?

[bostonusa2009]

I thought I would post this on here, for those of you that suspect or know you have a cortisol issue. A guy on another forum was nice enough to put this together for me.

The thick blue line is my cortisol result from my 24 hour saliva test. The top two lines above it represent the range of where a healthy person’s cortisol level should be.

I think it really tells an accurate story of how little energy it felt like I had from the moment I work up. If you look at where my reading is at 8:00 am, it’s at the absolute bottom of the range for where you should be. Cortisol is supposed to gradually decrease throughout the day, while mine dropped like a rock.

[Mens_Rea]

@bostonusa2009

After doing more extensive research, I decided I would need to increase my Cortisol again. I’m tyring to figure out what the threshold is in terms of mgs per day. I listend to a audio that someone posted a while back in which Chrisler was talking about this subject. I believe he said up to 40mg per day. Can anyone confirm that?

I definitely think I need to go higher than 20mg to stabilze my temps.

I initially reported having erections in the middle of night once I started the HC. When I weaned back down to 5mg, the night time erections went away. I now am back up to 25mg per day. The past few nights I had erections every night. One even mad it a little difficult to piss.

Professor Bouloux told me that the amounts used in the past are far too high and that the body only produces about 15mg of cortisol ED itself whereas they used to think that figure was 30mg. So dont go near the 30mg mark, certainly not beyond it. Dr C said he never has had to go beyond it…

[bluejaysfan]

Bostonusa,

Had a 24hr saliva cortisol test with somewhat similar results.

AM 14 (range 2-11)
Noon 2.2 (1-7)
PM .65 (.5 - 3.5)
Bedtime .74 (.2 -1.3)

I find it weird that my cortisol is high in the morning yet I have to drag myself out of bed.

[m_81]

@bluejaysfan

I find it weird that my cortisol is high in the morning yet I have to drag myself out of bed.

Your energy depends both on cortisol and on thyroid hormones. They work together to increase metabolism and to give you energy. In your case, your thyroid output is probably low.

[m_81]

@bostonusa2009

I think it really tells an accurate story of how little energy it felt like I had from the moment I work up. If you look at where my reading is at 8:00 am, it’s at the absolute bottom of the range for where you should be. Cortisol is supposed to gradually decrease throughout the day, while mine dropped like a rock.

It really looks like you need a cortisol boost. If you can reach a state where both your cortisol and thyroid hormones are as high as in a young man, your energy issues will be all gone. That’s guaranteed. Testosterone related issues (sex drive, erectile dysfunction, muscle mass, emotions) are not guaranteed to get fixed.

If Chilln’s theory is right, right now you should have high E2 or high SHBG (since you have low cortisol). According to him, boosting your cortisol and progesterone will make E2 and SHBG drop. Keep us posted.

[toadstool]

@Oscar

@Colin297

Oscar hasn’t responded since any of this has been flagged up. Maybe he should admit he’s been over-zealous in his campaign AGAINST this thread. He labelled it a “thread dedicated to your (my) ignorance”…i think it’s pretty clear who is being unhelpful in all of this.

Actually, this was the thread to your ignorance: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4945, but you can take your pick!

As stated by myself, and more importantly Mew, it is unhelpful to post endless speculation without any sources. So its good to see that you have now dropped the whole ‘cortisol-production-line’ thing (I think you have anyway?) - but you must realise that the problem with it is that it is unsourced. If you had simply listened to me in the first place you would have realised that long ago!

His post didnt actually answer my question about that theory, which is unfortunate, and his actual answer seems to be some sort of compromise so as not to offend chilln. You can spin it in several ways. Unfortunately that has led to some confusion already! (Also, I have never read of Dr Cisler ever treating anyone for Adrenal Fatigue (whatever the hell that is anyway)).

My dear friend oscar… you do realize that pretty much that every thing we know about the human body or what we think we know about the human body was indeed a theory at one point? Down the road I hope his theory gets “proven” and I can call you a foolish fool…

[Mens_Rea]

Another post from Dr C…

@Dr John Crisler

The PREG is good in many to rebalance hormones–definitely a good idea to try in guys with PFS.

I’m going to fix the inital post soon.

All the haters can go jump for all im concerned.

[m_81]

To all those people that need scientific references, I’m glad to announce that chilln provided them in the primer called “Baldness and Prostate”. Go to musclechatroom.com/forum/content.php?121-baldness-and-prostate-101 and scroll to the bottom of the page.

The most important reference is:

Confirmation of cortisol’s ability to downregulate T (jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/3/671)

This reference explains the key point that is being made in this thread. Cortisol (and progesterone) downregulates T, exactly like E2 and SHBG. This theory argues that a sudden decrease of cortisol caused an increase of E2, SHBG, or prolactin, or a decreaase of T, which are the only other mechanisms that our body can resort to to downregulate T. Therefore, increasing cortisol (and progesterone) should be a priority for all PFS sufferers, because it will decrease E2 or SHBG or prolactin.

[Mew]

Therefore, increasing cortisol (and progesterone) should be a priority for all PFS sufferers, because it will decrease E2 or SHBG or prolactin.

Not according to the study you linked…

jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/3/671

Elevation of circulating cortisol resulting from insulininduced hypoglycemia or the administration of hydrocortisone was followed by a rapid decrease in serum T levels,

Sounds like the opposite of what people should want.

[m_81]

@Mew

Elevation of circulating cortisol resulting from insulininduced hypoglycemia or the administration of hydrocortisone was followed by a rapid decrease in serum T levels,

Sounds like the opposite of what people should want.

It sounds counter-intuitive, but this is exactly what you want. Nevertheless, note that, in the paper, the levels of cortisol are raised a lot (too much). Also, note that, in the paper, only cortisol has been raised, and not thyroid hormones. If both are raised, the increase in the overall metabolism rate will cause an increase of the production of all hormones (according to chilln).

The key point is that downregulating T must be done, in a way or another. Now, with hormone modulation, you can pick the downregulator you like best among:
-E2
-SHBG
-cortisol

Obviously, you should prefer the third one. For example, young males have high level of cortisol and, yet, optimal sexual function. Thanks to the high cortisol, their body does not need to further downregulate T, and therefore they have low SHBG and low E2.

In aging males, the decreasing levels of cortisol leave their body without a T downregulator. Therefore, their body has no choice other than raising E2 or SHBG.

In our case, according to this theory, cortisol suddenly dropped and forced our body to find alternative ways to downregulate T, i.e raising E2 or SHBG. Although the mechanism that connects this cortisol drop to propecia is not clear, Dr Crisler himself “can fathom a mechanism where severely reduced DHT levels could increase conversion of T4 to rT3” (musclechatroom.com/forum/content.php?121-baldness-and-prostate-101.

So, the bottom line is that if you have low cortisol, you will certainly have high E2 or high SHBG. And you don’t want that.

[Mew]

The key point is that downregulating T must be done, in a way or another.

Why?

For what reason would people want to reduce Testosterone further, when in many cases the drug already left them hypogonadal?

If anything we need to increase androgen to repair the damage that occurred while on the drug (ie, being deprived of androgen).

[m_81]

@Mew

The key point is that downregulating T must be done, in a way or another.

Why?

For what reason would people want to reduce Testosterone further, when in many cases the drug already left them hypogonadal?

Very good question. But there is one aspect to consider, which I left out to avoid a too complicated post. High Cortisol AND high T4 (or high T3 in case you are taking T3) boost overall metabolism, which boosts testosterone metabolism (simply put, T-sensitivity, see below). So, here is the slow motion of what happens by boosting a male’s cortisol:

Step 1. Suppose that you increase cortisol.
Step 2. This causes a reduction in T levels. Your libido decreases by 10 points of an arbitrary scale. Overall change in libido at this point = -10.
Step 3. Your hypothalamus, realizing this drop in T, reduce E2 or SHBG in an attempt of your body to reach the (degraded) homeostasis that was present before increasing cortisol. Your libido increases by 10 points. Overall change in libido at this point = -10 + 10 = 0.
Step 4 (the critical one). Your body, realizing an increase in cortisol, may or may not increase the production of T4, in an effort to have enough thyroid hormone to match the higher level of cortisol – because T3 and cortisol work together to increase metabolism.
Step 4a: if your body increases the production of T4 by a sufficient amount to match the extra cortisol, then your overall metabolism increases, resulting in extra energy. Also, according to chilln, an increase in overall metabolism boosts T metabolism, effectively resulting in a higher sensitivity of the androgen receptor to T. This is also partially confirmed by awor, who said that T3 increases the gene expression of the receptor. Therefore, your libido increases by, let’s say, 5 points. Overall change in libido = -10 + 10 +5 = +5.
Step 4b: if your body does not increase the production of T4 by a sufficient amount to match the extra cortisol (pretty common case), then you will have symptoms of high cortisol or low pregnenolone, depending on which method you used to boost cortisol.

So, if you end up being in case 4b, which is pretty common, then you will not benefit from a higher cortisol. But, if you end up being in case 4a (which is guaranteed, if you take a thyroid medication), then you will improve.

For hypogonadal men (i.e. with low Total Testosterone), the reasoning is the same. It depends on what their hypothalamus decides to do in step 4.

@Mew

If anything we need to increase androgen to repair the damage that occurred while on the drug (ie, being deprived of androgen).

Agreed. But, increasing T without boosting cortisol and thyroid hormones adequately can be detrimental, as shown by many of this board’s members. On the other hand, most of those who concurrently boosted overall metabolism and testosterone levels have been successful.

[bostonusa2009]

@m_81

@bostonusa2009

I think it really tells an accurate story of how little energy it felt like I had from the moment I work up. If you look at where my reading is at 8:00 am, it’s at the absolute bottom of the range for where you should be. Cortisol is supposed to gradually decrease throughout the day, while mine dropped like a rock.

It really looks like you need a cortisol boost. If you can reach a state where both your cortisol and thyroid hormones are as high as in a young man, your energy issues will be all gone. That’s guaranteed. Testosterone related issues (sex drive, erectile dysfunction, muscle mass, emotions) are not guaranteed to get fixed.

If Chilln’s theory is right, right now you should have high E2 or high SHBG (since you have low cortisol). According to him, boosting your cortisol and progesterone will make E2 and SHBG drop. Keep us posted.

M81,

I’m back on the higher dose of Cortisol. No question it helps with energy. I just need to do a better job of tracking my temps, so that I can introduce T3 to take care of my RT3 problem.

Yes, Chillen is right in regards to the SHBG. The last blood test it was above the range provided. They didn’t test my E2 on the last test even though I requested it. I will update again.

[toadstool]

@m_81

@Mew

The key point is that downregulating T must be done, in a way or another.

Why?

For what reason would people want to reduce Testosterone further, when in many cases the drug already left them hypogonadal?

Very good question. But there is one aspect to consider, which I left out to avoid a too complicated post. High Cortisol AND high T4 (or high T3 in case you are taking T3) boost overall metabolism, which boosts testosterone metabolism (simply put, T-sensitivity, see below). So, here is the slow motion of what happens by boosting a male’s cortisol:

Step 1. Suppose that you increase cortisol.
Step 2. This causes a reduction in T levels. Your libido decreases by 10 points of an arbitrary scale. Overall change in libido at this point = -10.
Step 3. Your hypothalamus, realizing this drop in T, reduce E2 or SHBG in an attempt of your body to reach the (degraded) homeostasis that was present before increasing cortisol. Your libido increases by 10 points. Overall change in libido at this point = -10 + 10 = 0.
Step 4 (the critical one). Your body, realizing an increase in cortisol, may or may not increase the production of T4, in an effort to have enough thyroid hormone to match the higher level of cortisol – because T3 and cortisol work together to increase metabolism.
Step 4a: if your body increases the production of T4 by a sufficient amount to match the extra cortisol, then your overall metabolism increases, resulting in extra energy. Also, according to chilln, an increase in overall metabolism boosts T metabolism, effectively resulting in a higher sensitivity of the androgen receptor to T. This is also partially confirmed by awor, who said that T3 increases the gene expression of the receptor. Therefore, your libido increases by, let’s say, 5 points. Overall change in libido = -10 + 10 +5 = +5.
Step 4b: if your body does not increase the production of T4 by a sufficient amount to match the extra cortisol (pretty common case), then you will have symptoms of high cortisol or low pregnenolone, depending on which method you used to boost cortisol.

So, if you end up being in case 4b, which is pretty common, then you will not benefit from a higher cortisol. But, if you end up being in case 4a (which is guaranteed, if you take a thyroid medication), then you will improve.

For hypogonadal men (i.e. with low Total Testosterone), the reasoning is the same. It depends on what their hypothalamus decides to do in step 4.

@Mew

If anything we need to increase androgen to repair the damage that occurred while on the drug (ie, being deprived of androgen).

Agreed. But, increasing T without boosting cortisol and thyroid hormones adequately can be detrimental, as shown by many of this board’s members. On the other hand, most of those who concurrently boosted overall metabolism and testosterone levels have been successful.

So how come you havent followed the necessary steps to get yourself better? I dont mean this in a rude way.

[m_81]

@toadstool

So how come you havent followed the necessary steps to get yourself better? I dont mean this in a rude way.

Yours is an absolutely legitimate question.

I am following the steps. My current target is to balance my intake of pregnenolone with my intake of T3.
Finding this balance is very hard. Too little cortisol results in fatigue, too much cortisol in high heart rate and insomnia. In those days where the balance is right, I have good energy and cognitive function (almost like pre-fin), which allow me to 1) work, 2) play sports, 3) eat whatever I want without having a heart attack, 4) drink a beer without having a heart attack. The testosterone related sides (sex drive, muscles, emotions) are bad and seem mostly unaffected by the treatment.

That’s why I am convinced that, although we might or might not be androgen insensitive, we are NOT insensitive to the other hormones (e.g. pregnenolone, thyroid, and cortisol). Therefore, it’s worth trying to optimize all these hormones to reach a decent quality of life. And that’s exactly what I’m trying to achieve.

[toadstool]

@m_81

@toadstool

So how come you havent followed the necessary steps to get yourself better? I dont mean this in a rude way.

Yours is an absolutely legitimate question.

I am following the steps. My current target is to balance my intake of pregnenolone with my intake of T3.
Finding this balance is very hard. Too little cortisol results in fatigue, too much cortisol in high heart rate and insomnia. In those days where the balance is right, I have good energy and cognitive function (almost like pre-fin), which allow me to 1) work, 2) play sports, 3) eat whatever I want without having a heart attack, 4) drink a beer without having a heart attack. The testosterone related sides (sex drive, muscles, emotions) are bad and seem mostly unaffected by the treatment.

That’s why I am convinced that, although we might or might not be androgen insensitive, we are NOT insensitive to the other hormones (e.g. pregnenolone, thyroid, and cortisol). Therefore, it’s worth trying to optimize all these hormones to reach a decent quality of life. And that’s exactly what I’m trying to achieve.

Is it safe to say you may need some sort of T boost as well…? Perhaps that’s why you still have those related side effects?

[m_81]

@toadstool

Is it safe to say you may need some sort of T boost as well…? Perhaps that’s why you still have those related side effects?

Maybe. We’ll see.

[bostonusa2009]

@toadstool

@m_81

@toadstool

So how come you havent followed the necessary steps to get yourself better? I dont mean this in a rude way.

Yours is an absolutely legitimate question.

I am following the steps. My current target is to balance my intake of pregnenolone with my intake of T3.
Finding this balance is very hard. Too little cortisol results in fatigue, too much cortisol in high heart rate and insomnia. In those days where the balance is right, I have good energy and cognitive function (almost like pre-fin), which allow me to 1) work, 2) play sports, 3) eat whatever I want without having a heart attack, 4) drink a beer without having a heart attack. The testosterone related sides (sex drive, muscles, emotions) are bad and seem mostly unaffected by the treatment.

That’s why I am convinced that, although we might or might not be androgen insensitive, we are NOT insensitive to the other hormones (e.g. pregnenolone, thyroid, and cortisol). Therefore, it’s worth trying to optimize all these hormones to reach a decent quality of life. And that’s exactly what I’m trying to achieve.

Is it safe to say you may need some sort of T boost as well…? Perhaps that’s why you still have those related side effects?

Toadstool,

Some of the sex hormones are regulated through adrenals and thyroid, so theoretically if he fixes the the thyriod issues he has it’s possible his sex hormones will kick back in. Of course there is no guarantee of it. At least this my current hope.

One thing that can not be denied on this forum is that there is definitely a connection of thyroid & adrenal problems with Propecia sufferers. I’m not saying everyone has it, but there appears to be a large number of guys who fall into this camp. There is no question that cortisol helped me and still is.

[toadstool]

I would agree… The funnest part for me is that I have maybe the worst adrenal levels on this board. And worse then ive ever seen posted on any forum im part of… And yet, HC doesnt make me feel on top of the world… I never really had an energy problem… With me its more of a motivation problem… Motiviation and energy are diff things… at least IMO. i could be wrong.

[Mens_Rea]

My last cortisol level (am) was top range. Fasting.

Perhaps the preg usage boosting this and its sustained or maybe it’s just another random test.

Will see if my ACTH levels have improved much.

The high cortisol level has definately thrown me a little but i’ll be delighted if i find my adrenals are okay.