Chi's recovery post reposted

Seeing as the other major PFS forum appears to be dead now, and that is where Chi’s most important recovery account was posted, I am assuming it was lost to us PH users. If I am mistaken and it has been republished on this forum, my apologies and by all means delete this. But I have searched for some exact phrases from it on here and found nothing. I saved it in a Google doc and am reposting it below.

The Google doc didn’t clearly format between questions posed to Chi and his answers, so I hope it is reasonably clear.


The following account was not written by me, it was written by @Chi, so please don’t question me on it


Hello

I will follow this up with several sets of bloods from Bouloux’s lab in 2011 and then recent ones from 2016 shortly, then add the same post to PH. I will also add some photos from when I suffered and today.

PFS

PFS is essentially severe CFS with the root cause lying in the gut. For one reason or another finasteride disrupts the micro biotic balance in the gut and damages the gut lining. This results in malabsorption of nutrients and a prevalence of pathogens (not parasites). Pathogens are essentially disease causing bacteria (whereas parasites are organisms which can live off the body but be completely harmless).

The downstream impact of problems in the gut is on the whole endocrine. For example Serotonin, a neurotransmitter and hormone found almost predominantly in the gut, is completely suppressed. Adequate serotonin is required for deep sleep, calming anxiety and relieving depression. It also assists in memory, regulates appetite, cell growth, wound healing, sexual desire and mood. On the contrary low serotonin causes anxiety, fatigue, insomnia and a host of other awful symptoms. This is just one hormonal impact of a dysfunctional gut, but there are others.

Why us?

The reason only a sub-set of finasteride users get affected is because this sub-set of people have a weaker than optimal gut, diet and immune system before the occurrence. Note it is also possible to feel completely normal, yet have a weaker than optimal gut and immune system before the finasteride related issues, at least if that is the way you have felt your entire life or the process of decline was so gradual as to be undiscernible.

Our weaker than optimal gut and immune systems was susceptible to decline and deteriorating health conditions anyway, however that doesn’t mean we would have suffered discernible or deteriorating health in our lifetime. It took the introduction of a potent chemical to completely throw a delicate balance out of whack – for many the crunch point was cessation of the drug – which in itself would have constituted a change in chemical balance. Others suffer at different times dependent on lifestyle, diet and existing health factors.

My symptom List (no particular order)

  • Shrunken balls
  • Insomnia / poor unrefreshing sleep
  • Anhedonia
  • Low or no libido
  • Poor or no erections
  • Penis curvature to left
  • Muscle wasting (particularly back of shoulders, upper/lower arms, wrists and fingers)
  • Mild gynecomastia
  • Pain/flare ups in gyno lumps
  • Cuticle recession
  • Low tolerance to stress
  • Long refractory period
  • Low tolerance to light
  • Poor memory
  • Poor focus
  • Hair thinning (particularly pubic and lower legs)
  • Slow wound healing
  • Skin ageing (wrinkles forming under eyes)
  • Sunken eyes
  • Blurring vision / focus
  • Bloodshot eyes
  • General weakness
  • Facial changes, more feminine at times
  • Increased susceptibility to colds and sneezing
  • Lowered body temperature

Today

Today I do not suffer from any of these symptoms and in fact I am healthier than I ever have been. The only thing I have is some lines under eyes, but then I am nearly 30 now (I became ill at 24) and I don’t deem mine to be any worse than friends my age, in fact better because I don’t really drink alcohol.

Recovery

Nutritionist & Tests

  • Gillian Hamer - London
  • Comprehensive Parasitology (checks Pathogens)

Supplements

  • Bionutri Ecobalance (inner 2 at breakfast, outer 2 at lunch)
  • Bionutri Tyro-plus
  • Bionutri Tara-cyn
  • Biocare Liquid Vitamin C
  • Biocare Liquid Trace Minerals
  • Biocare Liquid Multivitamin
  • Spatone Iron sachet
  • Ionic Zinc
  • Viridian Digestive Aid
  • VSL3 probiotic or Primal Nutrition Probiotics (spore forming)
  • Lugol’s Iodine (occasionally)

Herbal Tinctures

  • Swedish Bitters
  • Wormwood
  • Clove
  • Andrographis

Diet

  • Breakfast = Steamed Vegetables (preferably fresh/home-grown/cruciferous)
  • Lunch = Salad + Meat/Fish
  • Dinner = Meat/Fish + vegetables
  • Intermittent fasting 1 day p.w.
  • Cook with coconut oil if required
  • Buy high quality pasture/grass-fed and wild fish only
  • No fruit (only small handful of berries every few days)
  • No nuts
  • No nightshade fruits and vegetables (e.g. tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, aubergine)
  • No sauces
  • No oils – high quality extra virgin olive oil OK occasionally on salads, but don’t overdo
  • No dairy
  • No carbohydrate foods (e.g. pasta, rice, potato, bread)
  • No sugar
  • No alcohol
  • Only drink spring water
  • Herbal Teas: Pau D’Arco, Nettle Leaf
  • Treat: Avocado, Kale, Lemon and Spring Water smoothie
  • Treat: Hot Water, Lemon, Celtic Sea Salt

Exercise

  • Run 5k x 3 per week
  • Hills sprints x 1 per week
  • Gym x 1-3 times per week, big movements only (e.g. squats, chest press, overhead press, dips, pull ups, deadlifts, clean, snatch)
  • Yoga daily
  • Some meditation

Other lifestyle

  • Use perfume and paraben free body and hair wash
  • Use fluoride free toothpaste
  • Do not use deodorant or spray chemicals on body
  • Wake up between 5:30-6am every day - boosts cortisol/adrenal function
  • Attach a shower filter to remove chlorine
  • Take freezing cold showers only, morning and night (easier after exercise)
  • Do not lie down during the day to rest/sleep
  • Aim to be asleep by 10:30
  • Do not use electronic devices after 8pm (including TV, mobile, laptop)
  • Grow your own organic vegetables – to maximise nutrition and remove risk of chemicals
  • Spend time outside in the natural light
  • Walk in forests and near rivers
  • Go swimming in lakes
  • Read books about health and nutrition
  • Remain positive
  • Laugh
  • Don’t give up
  • Try to see friends as much as possible
  • Remove stressors
  • Do not visit the internet researching your condition
  • Avoid mirrors
  • Cut out people that cause you stress

Final note

I just want to add that all this stuff wasn’t some wild punt in the dark and wasn’t introduced overnight. It was a 3.5year process of research, listening to my body and learning. However, I firmly believe that full recovery can happen to anyone, irrespective of the severity of symptoms and time suffered, within a few months (possibly weeks) if you can get the balance of things mentioned right. To add weight to this, 6 months before full recovery I was still having massive set-backs and terrible episodes of awfulness. However when you’ve cracked the code it doesn’t matter – everything is in your favour to recover.

Today, 5 years post crashing I feel brilliant. I can eat carbs and sugar as and when I want, but I try to limit it. I (nobody) feels good eating these shit foods. I ate plenty of cake this Christmas though and that feels good, just it’s not something I want to make a habit of knowing how bad this stuff is. It’s difficult though in our modern society – sugar and carb is prevalent – which is a great threat to health and longevity. Today I try to live a paleo lifestyle, which is in essence what the above recovery list is but with additional things thrown in. It is not so complicated, but you need to believe and stick to it. And by the way the Bionutri supplements are absolutely critical to this – I recall when I ran out on several occasions, my world started to implode again.

I really hope this helps.

Cheers

Chi


I notice that you said no nuts whereas you said in your thread at propeciahelp that you used to have brazil nuts. Is this new advice post recovery or did you cut out the nuts in order to recover?

Chi:
They were eaten as a treat, but nuts generally will hinder more than help. They don’t digest so easily and irritate the gut.

snell1234:

Is there anything you took which specifically helped with the liver?

Chi:
The Tara-cyn is key for the liver.

snell1234:

And finally, when you were cured, are you able to have carbs and get no pfs symptoms at all (instead, just the shitty symptoms anyone would get from eating foods that arent good for you).

Chi:
My lifestyle today alternates between bingeing on carbs for 1-2 days tops, followed by a long period of time spent without any carbs. My body and mind simply loves being low carb, I feel unmistakebly better, but who doesn’t get weak for tea and cake?! Recently I’ve been drinking more alcohol too (making up for lost time!), but don’t intend to make a habit of it.


Chi, how did you keep a normal weight on that diet. I want to try a mostly vegetable diet but im having trouble to keep a healthy weight even when im eating shitty since pfs. With only vegetables and some meat of fish I won’t even reach 1500 kcal. Any tips?

Chi:
I lost LOADS of weight while recovering. The lowest I got was 60kg, I am now 73kg. You will need to load up on the veg + meat+fish. Don’t worry about how many calories it is, just eat until you’re full. Don’t pick in between meals, just have 3 square meals a day, but make them big. Remember this isn’t just about diet, though. Weight training also key.

***************************************************8

Chi,

How committed have you been to this protocol, and how long did it take to see sustainable results?

Chi:
1 year of turmoil, 1 year of trying to exercise, 1.5 years of diet manipulation and training. However, I believe with the right protocol implemented, recovery can start within a matter of days and it’s possible to achieve full recovery within weeks. I say this because I could go from the absolutely depths of despair, but then get my shit together and feel great within a few weeks. Maintaining it was the problem, because I always took a wrong turn (e.g. eating too many nuts, fruits, or training too hard). In the end I learned to avoid all the wrong turns

progress:

Do you feel like you have to be in a mood of well being for this protocol to work, or on the contrary, did this protocol help diminish anxiety?

Chi:
You need a positive mind in order to recover. Motivation is key in all of this, but this is absolutely within your control. You need to look up, keep focus and press on despite depression, anxiety, brain fog etc. Easier said than done, but doable!!

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Nothing but complete tripe

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Based on you having tried it, or you’re just writing it off out of hand based on no evidence? The guy was an active member for a number of years before this approach apparently got him right.

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I don’t know whats worse, you discrediting a reported recovery and contributing nothing to the discussion or the fact 6 other people liked your post.

Seems like the logic on this site is that everybody here is crippled and fucked and if the cure isnt some pill or injection a person can take then the advice is useless. Not surprised seeing as we all looked to a drug to magically make hair grow back.

Personally I think Chi was on to something and I think we’d all be doing ourselves a favor by attempting to replicate his work.

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Fair enough if he recovered I just don’t believe that herbs and any diet is able to fix this situation depending on how severe the case is unless someone can prove to me otherwise that epimutations which usually last a lifetime can be reverted back to their original state.

Epigenetic information is influenced by environment, diet, stress, Finasteride, vitamins, etc.
Of course diet, herbs might change epigenetic information.
On the other hand, we do not know what should be changed and what should not. So it remains risky to take any supplements.
However saying that this story is " a complete trip " is a complete trip.

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Think what you want @slavoushka follow his protocols, supplements and diets come back to me if it cures you or helps to relieve your symptoms I’ll be darn happy for you but my best guess is that it won’t help, everyone loves a positive story but they need a reality check as this disease will need Scientific interference from Scientists that’s the bottom line. Over the span of a decade the same “tripe” keeps repeating itself over and over again like a vicious loop rarely with any worthy results. I’ve read this forum back to front and from my own experience diet doesn’t really seem to have any impact on this disease and supplements have harmed more people than anything. The only thing I can say is time might have a mitigating factor with PFS why that is I have absolutely no idea and isn’t the case for everyone and certainly not with myself.

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I told that any sups remain dangerous until we understand the mechanism.
Time can heal - agree. Or time can make things worse. No mechanism - no idea.
Hang on, brother.

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I did a 1 month of clean carnivore diet plus 2 days of waterfast. And only thing that seems to change is some increase in my morning woods… I must do more maybe, but a month should have showed some improvements… i really don’t understand how Chi got recovered… considering that im maybe the mildest case in this forum and even i didn’t recovered with more strict diet than him.

But, i still suggest everyone to try carnivore diet to see some more results of others. Because other people improved with it here. Plus, i really felt healthy and energetic on carnivore. And there isn’t anything unhealthy about this diet. (Do your own research always) So you can give a shot.

I really think we can seriously improve PFS symptoms through food and lifestyle changes.

The problem is that we want to be fixed NOW and thats completely understandable, but thats not how it will happen at least for the time being.

We are the pioneers for this syndrome and the more people we have doing everything they can do to get better, the better idea we an get of what is wrong: Exercise, better diet, drug experimentation. We need people doing these things, is it risky? Yes, but what fucking choice do we have?

I have searched this forum high and low and have found that people have achieved recoveries thorugh many different means.

CLEAN UP YOUR DIET, DO SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO FIGURING THIS OUT.

I also highly suggest setting up a goal to achieve outside of PFS in order to give your life a sense of progress and growth. Along with my PFS recovery efforts I am now studying daily to get my PMP certification. Knowing I am educating myself for a higher income has given me a sense of progress and growth I have long lost since PFS hit me.

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If supplements have the power to make things worse, is it so inconceivable that something can also make this better? Clearly this disease is not “unmovable” lots of people, even active ones on this forum, even mods, have claimed temporary recovery.

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I can’t see it if I’m being honest, if a simple supplement can reverse the several alternations in the brain, low vitamin D, glutathione depletion, depletion of allopregnanolone then please tell me where I can get this magic pill.

Chi doesn’t mention a single pill. It’s a painful lifestyle change, wholistic approach, and a couple years of time. I’m not saying it’s the solution, but MAYBE doing something this can start to reverse epigenetic changes.

A month of a diet is hardly anything I would be surprised if you got any permanent results from that

How many times has this been repeated guys, there is people that went to extreme lengths with diet and had little to no success, just look at the history some fasting for 10 plus days causing malnutrition. I just keep seeing history repeating itself over and over again like one big vicious cycle this eventually gets tiring. We need to start looking at the mechanisms involved here instead of jumping to holistic approaches to be our saviour. Like I said before there is something that is keeping us in this state and I have a firm belief that it’s to do with androgen receptors overexpressing (although other opinions may differ) which is creating a negative feedback loop that keeps the genes methylated how can this be overcome through diet? It can’t be anything other than this unless the DNA itself has been mutated. I think the genetic predisposition to this whole thing in the first place is that we simply already had higher than normal androgen receptors to begin with which can be validated by the fact that many people here were hypersexual and taking finasteride/endocrine disrupters created an environment that the body wasn’t able to cope with sensing too much of the substance that was being inhibited by these drugs/supplements and crashed the system sending multiple pathways haywire.

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Of course and this is what the admin and mods are doing with their projects. And I’m not talking a 10 day fast, I’m talking a life style for change for years. And even if this doesn’t work, you will be leading a healthy lifecycle. So to put someone like Chi down who worked so hard to better himself is silly. Two years of strict diet and workout is not easy. I’m not saying it’s a cure but it’s better than smoking, being sedentary, and eating bad food. Also, I am in agreement that there is not magic cure or pill. And maybe I’m just more naive but I do hope some natural healing can happen.

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If you are looking for a way to contribute toward the future, rather than expecting an instant recovery, could you please do your part by participating in the post-drug survey?

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So what should i do? Staying in the carnivore diet and drug/alcohol free for at least 6 months to see some permanent recovery? I could really do that if thats a solution. But a month of a strict ketosis+ 2 days of waterfast is still something. (My protocol) I didn’t see any considerable improvements by doing these things. How doing few months more, can change anything significant? + why you, yourself didn’t try this already?

I just have some fantasies to end my life in near future if things don’t improve man. I don’t want to accept what happened to me, im not even sure what is the normal and what is a “healthy” body anymore. What should i try now?

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If I knew what to do I wouldn’t be on here but I’ve been following ozeph’s recovery closely and I believe he said it took 6-9 months before he had sexual improvements. Definitely don’t give up hope man hopefully something will come along. I’m personally on day 4 of the keto diet and eventually I’ll switch to carnivore.

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I would think that one should stay on the carnivore diet and stay drug free for at least 6 months which is half a year which is a massive amount of time, but its the answer to your question. Please report back with results.

Some things take more time then others. One thing that is consistent with all recoveries is that literally none of them are instant.

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