Autoimmune reaction

[Despo111]

Greetings,
by my modest opignion, my particular problem is in immune response to changed bowel-environment. Propecia was only trigger. Altered expression of androgen is possible, but only as a pathology of auto-immune processes.

How can it be? For that matter, appriciated auditorium will have to wait my next post.

However, feel free to disccus on this subject, since I have only law diploma, not medical one.

D.

[Oscar]

I’ve been tring to find an answer to my particular problems finasteride - a massive ‘crash’ shortly after stopping.

The problem is that this timeline of events, stopping and getting worse, didnt really seem to match with any issues with any other known problems with drugs. However I recently read about a one in a million reaction to statins that gets worse after stopping. It is a sustained autoimmune reaction and funnily enough is the result of Autoantibodies directed against a Reductase Enzyme.

theheart.org/article/1162047.do

Antibodies target HMG-CoA protein, triggering autoimmune myopathy in statin-treated patients

Baltimore, IL - New research suggests that statins appear to upregulate the expression of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl-coenzyme A reductase (HMG-CoA), the major target of autoantibodies in patients who develop statin-associated autoimmune necrotizing myopathy. The results, according to investigators, provide a mechanistic link between an environmental trigger, statin therapy, and the development of a sustained autoimmune disorder that persists even after the drugs have been stopped.

“In the vast majority of cases, in patients who develop muscle symptoms while taking statins, the symptoms resolve once you have the patient stop taking the statin, without any needed form of treatment,” lead investigator Dr Andrew Mammen (Johns Hopkins Medical Institute, Baltimore, MD) told heartwire. “But there is a rare group of patients who develop a sustained autoimmune process that actually requires immunosuppressive therapy to treat. Otherwise, they continue to get worse and worse, with many of our patients coming into the clinic in wheelchairs, even after having been off the statin for months.”

Their findings are published in the December 2010 issue of Arthritis & Rheumatism.

Mammen explained that some of their initial research involved evaluating patients who had developed myopathy, with elevated creatinine kinase (CK) levels and muscle weakness, who appeared to have autoimmune muscle disease but without any inflammation, an unusual feature, in the muscle biopsy specimens. As a result, they wanted to determine whether these patients had any novel autoantibodies, which are often found in patients who have autoimmune muscle disease.

The researchers identified unique autoantibodies in 16 of 26 individuals currently treated at the Johns Hopkins Myositis Center for necrotizing myopathy. When they analyzed the patients, they discovered that 12 of the 16 patients 50 years of age and older had been treated with a statin prior to developing the muscle disease.

“When you talked to the patients, a very typical story was that they got put on a statin medication,” said Mammen. “It was recognized that it was causing some muscle problems, it was stopped, maybe switched to another one, and then finally the medication was discontinued. But instead of getting better, which is what usually happens with statin myopathy, it just continued to progress and get worse. It didn’t get better until they were put on immunosuppressive medications.”

Rare, but serious side effect

With that background, the group then wanted to determine what the antibodies were recognizing. In this latest study, they learned the antibodies recognize HMG-CoA reductase, the target of statin therapy. After 750 patients with muscle symptoms at the clinic were screened, 45 patients, or 6%, were identified as having the HMG-CoA-reductase antibodies. Among patients 50 years of age and older, 92% of patients were exposed to statin therapy.

Mammen said that normal muscle has very low levels of HMG-CoA reductase, but regenerating muscle, muscle that has been previously damaged, has very high levels. As a result, that damaged muscle continues to serve as a rich source of the HMG-CoA-reductase protein even after the statin is discontinued, which helps explain why an autoimmune muscle disease process started with the statin continues after the drugs have been stopped.

Approximately 5% of individuals prescribed statins develop some sort of muscle side effects, such as cramping or muscle pain, that can lead to switching to another drug or stopping the medication altogether. Mammen stressed that the response resulting in necrotizing myopathy is extremely rare, doing a back-of-envelope calculation suggesting that one or two individuals per million per year develop the autoimmune disorder.

“This is not a reason not to take statins,” he told heartwire. “It’s a very rare side effect, but it’s one to know about because nobody really knows what’s going on with these patients after the medication is stopped. It’s important to recognize it as a rare but serious side effect of statin use.”

One of the potential benefits of the new research is the possible development of tests that identify antibodies targeting HMG-CoA reductase, allowing clinicians to know which patients are developing an autoimmune myopathy following statin therapy that needs to be treated with immunosuppressive therapy, said Mammen.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21104722?dopt=Abstract

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21885975

Perhaps similar has happened to me. Autoantibodies directed against 5alpha-Reductase. Perhaps this is why I also get worse with TRT.

[Luckfax]

With finasteride we are certainly talking about more than one or two per million, and most of this site also crashed.

[Oscar]

99%+ of people suffer no persistent side effects with finasteride. I dont think most of the people that do suffer persistent side effects ‘crash’ after stopping. And most of those people that ‘crash’ after stopping arent suffering from muscle wasting, anhedonia and other strange and wonderful problems. Therefore my particular symptoms may be very rare indeed.

And its my problems i am trying to find an answer to. Just as some guys believe their problems are due to prostatitis because they only suffer sexual symptoms. Thats not to say the above idea couldnt - somehow - apply to everyone.

[Luckfax]

99%+ of people suffer no persistent side effects with finasteride. I dont think most of the people that do suffer persistent side effects ‘crash’ after stopping. And most of those people that ‘crash’ after stopping arent suffering from muscle wasting, anhedonia and other strange and wonderful problems. Therefore my particular symptoms may be very rare indeed.

I’d disagree with this. From devouring hair loss forums I’d say about 5% at least of fin users get persistent side effects, such as lowered libido or brain fog that takes many months to improve. Within that you have maybe 1% who get long term/permanent problems, bad sides, physical changes etc. I’d say at least half of those have some sort of crash or worsening in the weeks after quitting. But yeah, when you throw in muscle wasting etc the number begins to get pretty tiny, unfortunately for those of us who do.

Remember, propecia is not a blockbuster drug. It has been a relative failure commercially and can’t be compared to statins which are used by tens of millions.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bestselling_drugs

[spstriken]

@Despo111

Greetings,
by my modest opignion, my particular problem is in immune response to changed bowel-environment. Propecia was only trigger. Altered expression of androgen is possible, but only as a pathology of auto-immune processes.

How can it be? For that matter, appriciated auditorium will have to wait my next post.

However, feel free to disccus on this subject, since I have only law diploma, not medical one.

D.

do not why you started a separate thread, you could you easily write it under viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4869

[Oscar]

@spstriken

do not why you started a separate thread, you could you easily write it under viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4869

I have actually had sperm antibodies checked. Came back negative. Check out my blood test results thread.

Just to follow up on my above post(s). 5alphaReductase Autoantibodies can exists. Not sure how or if it would cause problems though.

Anti-5 alpha-reductase autoantibodies in the serum of patients with prostatic cancer.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2229323

Testosterone autoantibodies can exist too, and cause hypogonadism, but results in raised LH/FSH. See;

Autoantibody against Testosterone in a Woman with Hypergonadotropic Hypogonadism
jcem.endojournals.org/content/83/1/14.full.pdf

[martinM]

@Luckfax

Remember, propecia is not a blockbuster drug. It has been a relative failure commercially and can’t be compared to statins which are used by tens of millions.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bestselling_drugs

Propecia isn’t covered by insurance in the usa and last I checked cost about $2/day. I saw a back of the envelope calculation which put about 1,000,000 prescriptions out there with a potential market of about 35,000,000 in the USA (numbers could be a little off). What propecia has is excellent growth potential in the marketplace. At $720 per year per prescription (last I checked) propecia is not a commercial failure.

[bostonusa2009]

Despo,

On the topic of Autoimmune reaction, I was viewing some videos on the topic of parasite testing on youtube and came accross this video. This doctor claims that the 70-75% of the autoimmune system surrounds the lower intestinal tract. He states very often this is where the problem resides.

youtube.com/watch?v=5VA277PPpE4

If you don’t want to watch the whole video, zoom to the 8:00 mark.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_gastrointestinal_tract

I am exploring the areas of liver, gallbladder & intestines with a gastro doctor. My LFT (liver function test) testcame back with issues and problems in the gallbladder. I discovered there is a link to gallbladder problems and parasites as JN had. I need find a very thorough test, like the one this doctor discusses in this video.

Apparently, it could get missed with the wrong test. I’ll try to eliminate that first and then move on to other caues. By no means am I stating there aren’t other problems going on as well, such as prostate as well, but for me personally this is an issue.

I’m also going to look into testing the stomach PH level.

[toadstool]

@bostonusa2009

Despo,

On the topic of Autoimmune reaction, I was viewing some videos on the topic of parasite testing on youtube and came accross this video. This doctor claims that the 70-75% of the autoimmune system surrounds the lower intestinal tract. He states very often this is where the problem resides.

youtube.com/watch?v=5VA277PPpE4

If you don’t want to watch the whole video, zoom to the 8:00 mark.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_gastrointestinal_tract

I am exploring the areas of liver, gallbladder & intestines with a gastro doctor. My LFT (liver function test) testcame back with issues and problems in the gallbladder. I discovered there is a link to gallbladder problems and parasites as JN had. I need find a very thorough test, like the one this doctor discusses in this video.

Apparently, it could get missed with the wrong test. I’ll try to eliminate that first and then move on to other caues. By no means am I stating there aren’t other problems going on as well, such as prostate as well, but for me personally this is an issue.

I’m also going to look into testing the stomach PH level.

Yea, Dr. Emerson told me in an email to go with Metamatrix…

[bostonusa2009]

Yea, Dr. Emerson told me in an email to go with Metamatrix…

good to hear. So apparently that must be the “gold standard” for this type of testing. I only saw one post on this forum of a guy that had this test done and he claimed the test came back concluding that he had leaky gut. This guy no longer posts here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_gut_syndrome

Around and around in a cicle we go with this stuff. Leaky Gut is tied to intestinal inflammation & immune reaction. Wiki states there is some belief that Leaky Gut is linked to CFS and Crohn’s.

[toadstool]

@bostonusa2009

Yea, Dr. Emerson told me in an email to go with Metamatrix…

good to hear. So apparently that must be the “gold standard” for this type of testing. I only saw one post on this forum of a guy that had this test done and he claimed the test came back concluding that he had leaky gut. This guy no longer posts here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_gut_syndrome

Around and around in a cicle we go with this stuff. Leaky Gut is tied to intestinal inflammation & immune reaction. Wiki states there is some belief that Leaky Gut is linked to CFS and Crohn’s.

This most def is the gold standard for stool tests, as he said in the video… Doesn’t surprise me that he no longer posts here…

[bluejaysfan]

Here’s a great read:

jackkruse.com/category/brain-gut-axis/

[bluecloud87]

@martinM

@Luckfax

Remember, propecia is not a blockbuster drug. It has been a relative failure commercially and can’t be compared to statins which are used by tens of millions.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bestselling_drugs

Propecia isn’t covered by insurance in the usa and last I checked cost about $2/day. I saw a back of the envelope calculation which put about 1,000,000 prescriptions out there with a potential market of about 35,000,000 in the USA (numbers could be a little off). What propecia has is excellent growth potential in the marketplace. At $720 per year per prescription (last I checked) propecia is not a commercial failure.

I think the online pharmacies make a lot of sales too. Inhouse, unitedpharmacies and others have always stocked many different generic finasteride brands so there must be a demand. The hair loss forums have thousands and thousands of lurkers.

Back on topic - i think investigating the gut with a doctor is a very good idea. I have pains in the lower part of my stomach at times, often comes about when i am feeling better! like an area that is very tender.

Who was this user who did not return after mentioning leaky gut?

[tim1911]

Does leaky gut exist?

[toadstool]

@bluejaysfan

Here’s a great read:

jackkruse.com/category/brain-gut-axis/

Very good read sir… This is pretty bright…

[bostonusa2009]

@UK20

@martinM

@Luckfax

Remember, propecia is not a blockbuster drug. It has been a relative failure commercially and can’t be compared to statins which are used by tens of millions.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bestselling_drugs

Propecia isn’t covered by insurance in the usa and last I checked cost about $2/day. I saw a back of the envelope calculation which put about 1,000,000 prescriptions out there with a potential market of about 35,000,000 in the USA (numbers could be a little off). What propecia has is excellent growth potential in the marketplace. At $720 per year per prescription (last I checked) propecia is not a commercial failure.

I think the online pharmacies make a lot of sales too. Inhouse, unitedpharmacies and others have always stocked many different generic finasteride brands so there must be a demand. The hair loss forums have thousands and thousands of lurkers.

Back on topic - i think investigating the gut with a doctor is a very good idea. I have pains in the lower part of my stomach at times, often comes about when i am feeling better! like an area that is very tender.

Who was this user who did not return after mentioning leaky gut?

Venom34 was the user.

I met with my gastro doctor again. I tried to get some of these tests ordered. Of course he turned out to be like the typical arogant know it all doctor.

He refused to order a test for leaky gut inspite my history of having a stomach ulcer caused from the poison and the recent issue with the gallbladder. He wouldn’t agree to the metametrix test either. So, I’ll be getting what I can from the DB.

He did agree to order a test to look inside of my stomach. I believe it is with a camera, which I have heard is very painful as the send the device down your throat. Also, He ordered a partial Endoscopy test and a standard stool test for parasites. If it comes back negative, I’ll pay out of pocket for the Metametrix test.

for those of you unfamiliar with leaky gut, read this link for starters. It seems to list almost every side imaginable with our condition.

Every brain chemical known as a neurotransmitter is also found in the intestine where 99 percent of neurotransmitters are made.

Not sure about you guys, but I never would have linked intestine issues to nuerotransmitter problems. I was aware that the liver metabaolizes hormones and leaky gut puts a serious strain on it’s ability to do this.

Articles – Dr. Nikolas Hedberg, D.C.

[Mew]

“Leaky gut” is not considered a mainstream medical diagnosis and hence why you will find little support for it from most in the medical field. Hence why it is often peddled by naturopaths or alternative health practitioners, who do not practice in these areas.

I’d listen to your doc’s advice. From my understanding there is little, if any evidence that “leaky guy” actually exists and the fact that “Dr. Hedberg” (a chiropractor, of all people) is trying to attribute this supposed condition with every symptom under the sun should tell you something.

Just my opinion but don’t believe everything you read online.

[bostonusa2009]

@Mew

“Leaky gut” is not considered a mainstream medical diagnosis and hence why you will find little support for it from most in the medical field. Hence why it is often peddled by naturopaths or alternative health practitioners, who do not practice in these areas.

I’d listen to your doc’s advice. From my understanding there is little, if any evidence that “leaky guy” actually exists and the fact that “Dr. Hedberg” (a chiropractor, of all people) is trying to attribute this supposed condition with every symptom under the sun should tell you something.

Just my opinion but don’t believe everything you read online.

If I listened to my Primary Care doctor’s advice I would never have discovered a problem with my Gallbladder. So just as alternative medicine doctor’s could be wrong, so can medical doctors.

This is just one link, Mew. I didn’t bother to try to locate several medical studies to back it up. I know this this theory doesn’t bode well for other areas of our problem, but I’m trying to fix the damage done to me and I’m going to follow the most obvious path according to my test results. This is one of several theories that could explain what happened to me. For me, It doesn’t need to be printed in a highly regarded medical journal for me to give it consideration.

I would disagree with you that “leaky gut” doesn’t exist. Maybe we should just agree to disagree. Personally, I have lost all respect for medical doctors and have no intention of letting a doctor’s ego get in the way of learning what this poison did to me.

[toadstool]

Mew, most docs believe that PFS doesn’t exist either… They must be right too then? I dont think guys like Dr. Emerson are quacks, after all they are world renowned docs and have received much praise… so…