40's nightmare

Member Stories
#1

41 years old, I resume my personal and dramatic clinic situation, as it has negatively developed during the time.

In 1999, with the prescription of a dermatologist and family doctor, I begun to take finasteride for alopecia (Propecia 1 mg./die, or Proscar 1,25 mg./die) until December 2007. During this period I didn’t have any problems or symptoms, except for an increase of anxiety and chronic fatigue in the last year that my logical fallacy hadn’t correlated with the drug, but rather with work’s care and other daily engagements. Anyway I decided to stop the treatment because, for two times, I did not obtain erection with my partner and had some obvious suspect. In that moment I didn’t feel depressed and went on regularly my daily activities.

In the first three months of 2008, after the interruption of treatment with finasteride, I begun to feel in my mind a strong loss of libido and sex drive, associated with lose weight, insomnia and tachycardia, all symptoms that I never experienced before. So I decided to check in my blood the clinical, lipid, haematology and hormonal levels, finding a deficit of LH and Free Testosterone (April 2008) that could have perhaps explain my problems. I remained instead astonished when, thirty days after, I repeated the blood test (LH, FSH, Prolactin, Estradiol, total and free Testosterone, DHT, Cortisol, SHBG, A.C.T.H., TSH, FT3, FT4 and IGF-1) and all the results were in range, but my libido was progressively disappeared and anxiety, chronic fatigue and difficulty focusing were jacking up.

Unfortunately it wasn’t all over. In September of 2008 I felt symptoms I didn’t believe possible, but were terribly real: strange sensations and pain in pelvic area and cramps to my penis with its contextual shrinkage, numbness and loss of fullness, blood flow and sensitivity. Obviously I begun to have serious problems of erectile dysfunction also with masturbation and was becoming crazy.

In January of 2009, after consulting several urologists, andrologists and endocrinologists and doing further tests on my blood, prostate and nervous conductions with negative results, I begun my personal research about unresolved finasteride side effects and found this forum, understanding that they can gravely unbalance all the sexual, mental and physical system of few and unlucky ex-consumers. Now I am on the opinion that my ill health could look like the one of a person with 5AR2 deficit or some kind of androgen insensitivity syndrome. With regard, I list my actual problems and symptoms.

  1. Sexual problems and symptoms
    I suffer of a complete loss of libido and sex drive and have a weak and nearly impossible erection, with insufficient rigidity and duration. My penis tissue is changed (contraction, shrinkage, wrinkled skin, absence of blood flow, total loss of fullness), testicular area has reduced and makes me feel burning skin sensation, gland penis and penis skin are totally insensitive to touch. I had besides a penis ventral curving because of spongious body’s fibrosis (see attached list of checks on date May 13, 2009 and July 28, 2009) and a reduced ejaculate’s power and quantity.

  2. Pelvic problems and symptoms
    I’m in torment for prostate and inguinal pain because of prostatitis (see attached list of checks on date July 24, 2009 – August 10, 2009 – September 5, 2009 – October 6, 2009), strong loss of fullness and movement’s capacity in the perineal muscles and weak urine flow.

  3. Physical and nervous problems and symptoms
    I experiment with tachycardia, muscle twitching to limbs, chronic fatigue, nervousness and impossibility of complete relaxation, joint and articular pain.

  4. Mental problems and symptoms
    I have difficulties of concentration and focusing, less memory and understanding capacity, extreme anxiety, panic attacks and strong depression. Contextually I feel lack of motivations, emotions for life, sense of reality and even troubles facing sun light.

All the problems I’ve just listed give the impression about the “torture” I must live every day. I feel my identity totally upset and the situation is very dramatic for my family too. I’m hopeless, on the contrary I’m afraid of further worsening because there are moments – especially in the morning – during which I can’t stand. I don’t know how I will be able to live the rest of my life, also because of sense to be in fault, with myself and the persons who love me, only for some stupid hair more.

During this nightmare I tried to keep my pseudo mental balance with tranquillizers (alprazolam) and antidepressants (paroxetine, escitalopram, mirtazapine), without appreciable results.

In September 2009 I tried to assume tamoxifen 10 mg./day and verified an immediate increase of LH, FSH and Testosterone in my blood test, but after 22 days I stopped the administration becouse my problems of libido, erection, depression and nervousness were further increasing instead of hold steady. I don’t know why, but I’m sure those problems were not a figment of my imagination and I have read it’s possible that, sometimes, Nolvadex determines them.

Recently I have contacted Dr. John Crisler, who has proposed to me an initial urine test for individualize a protocol of treatment, telling about surrenal fatigue and probable administration of cortisone (10 mg./day). I would ask if someone of members knows this doctor and tried some protocol with him. In this case, did you obtain some positive result?

Finally I would do some remark and question for the other members of forum.

  1. I think to suffer of an enzyme 5AR2 deficiency in my brain and target tissue (prostate, genital skin, seminal vesicles, etc.) and, with regard, I would demand your attention and opinion about these issues:
    a) the metabolite of DHT 3Alpha-diol G (androstenediol glucuronide) presents a blood level under the normal range (see attached blood test on date August 7, 2009). I think it means a low peripheral 5AR2 activity.
    b) Progesterone blood levels are under the normal range (see attached blood tests on date April 22, 2009 – August 7, 2009). May be this problem is due to an over activity of surrenal glands which perceive a lack of conversion in allopregnanolone by 5AR2 activity.

  2. It’s probable I’m suffering the consequences of an androgen receptor mutation or deactivation in my hypotalam, nervous system and genital area (penis, prostate, pelvis, etc.). I really don’t know what to do for changing this horrible situation.

  3. I’m very worry for spongious body’s fibrosis, loss of fullness and movement’s capacity in the perineal muscles and penis tissue changes. I’m sceptical that testosterone or DHT administration can take back to an acceptable functionality of these organs, also considering the negative effects of this administration, like aromatize into estrogen, testicular atrophy and affects on PSA, hematocrit or anxiety levels.

ATTACHED:

  1. list of checks;
  2. results of blood tests.

LIST OF CHECKS

• May 23, 2008 – Examination by endocrinologist (diagnosis of moderate bilateral gynecomas-tia)
• August 27, 2008 – Examination by urologist (diagnosis of right dimensions after prostate digital exploration)
• September 16, 2008 – Urine test and culture (negative results)
• December 27, 2008 – Genital and cortical nervous system test (normal report);
• February 10, 2009 – Penis ultrasound (normal report)
• May 13, 2009 – Erectile function test by prostaglandine E1 (diagnosis of cavernous body’s good rigidity, but only partial stiffening of glans penis and spongious body of the urethra)
• April 15, 2009 – Ejaculate test, with evidence of low quantity of sperm (1 ml., normal range 3-5), excess of anomalous forms of spermatozoas (40%, normal range 0-30%) and deficit of mobil spermatozoas (50%, normal range 60-80%)
• April 27, 2009 – Prostate ultrasound, with evidence of diameter 32x22x30 and ipoplasic seminal vesicles
• April 29, 2009 – Magnetic resonance of pelvis (normal report)
• May 4, 2009 – Electric stimulation of pelvis (normal report)
• May 13, 2009 – Testicular and penis ultrasounds, with evidence of two calcifications at the base of spongious body of the urethra (diameter 2,3 mm. e 1 mm.)
• July 24, 2009 – Examination by urologist (diagnosis of suspicious prostatitis after prostate digital exploration)
• July 28, 2009 – Examination by endocrinologist (diagnosis of ipoplasic penis and testicles, spongious body’s fibrosis and probable hypogonadotropic hypogonadism because of low LH and FSH production in relation with plight of androgen receptors)
• August 10, 2009 – Sperm culture (positive results for gamma-hemolytic streptococcus and enterococcus faecalis that confirm prostatitis)
• August 9, 2009 – Abdomen ultrasound (normal report for liver, spleen, kidneys and pancreas)
• August 24, 2009 – Magnetic resonance of brain, with evidence of congenital asymmetry of pituitary gland
• September 3, 2009 – Stimulating test of pituitary gland, with evidence of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism because of FSH blood levels were close to zero before gonadoreline injection
• September 5, 2009 – Examination by endocrinologist (diagnosis of suspicious prostatitis)
• October 6, 2009 – Examination by urologist (diagnosis of bacterial prostatitis and prescription of antibiotics

RESULTS OF BLOOD TESTS

April 4, 2008
Type of test Results Range
LH < 1,4 mIU/ml 1,7 – 8,6
Prolactin 4,3 ng/ml 4,1 – 15.3
Total Testosterone 5,54 ng/ml 0,28 – 11,00

April 22, 2008
Type of test Results Range
Total Testosterone 6,07 ng/ml 2,80 – 8,00
Free Testosterone < 4,50 pg/ml 5,60 – 40,00

May 21, 2008
Type of test Results Range
FSH 2,19 mUI/ml 1,7 – 12,0
LH 2,63 mUI/ml 1,1 – 7,0
Prolactin 8,13 ng/ml 3,0 – 25,0
Estradiol 17 beta 22,30 pg/ml < 62,00
Total Testosterone 5,77 ng/ml 2,8 – 8,0
Free Testosterone 12,30 pg/ml 5,60 – 40,00
DHT 648 pg/ml 300 – 1200
Cortisol (8.00 o’clock) 155,4 ng/ml 55,0 – 287,0
SHBG 27 nmol/l 16 – 120
A.C.T.H. 26,30 pg/ml <= 46
TSH 2,100 mUI/l 0,270 – 4,200
Free T3 4,24 pmol/l 3,10 – 6,80
Free T4 18,88 pmol/l 12,00 – 22,00
Somatomedin C – IGF-1 144,00 ng/ml 90 – 360

June 6, 2008
Type of test Results Range
LH 1,9 mUI/ml 1,7 – 8,6
Prolactin 5,0 ng/ml 4,1 – 15.3
Total Testosterone 5,55 ng/ml 0,28 – 11,00

September 16, 2008
Type of test Results Range
FSH 1,74 mUI/ml 1,7 – 12,0
LH 1,93 mUI/ml 1,1 – 7,0
Total Testosterone 6,96 ng/ml 2,8 – 8,0
Free Testosterone 7,10 pg/ml 5,60 – 40,00
DHT 613 pg/ml 300 – 1200
Total PSA 0,850 ng/ml <= 4,000
Free PSA 0,243 ng/ml -
Free PSA/Total PSA ratio 28,59% -

January 27, 2009
Type of test Results Range
FSH 2,23 mUI/ml 1,7 – 12,0
LH 2,79 mUI/ml 1,1 – 7,0
Total Testosterone 5,39 ng/ml 2,80 – 8,00
Free Testosterone 11,4 pg/ml 5,60 – 40,00
DHT 618 pg/ml 300 – 1200
Total PSA 1,130 ng/ml <= 4,000
Free PSA 0,324 ng/ml -
Free PSA/Total PSA ratio 28,673% -

April 22, 2009
Type of test Results Range
FSH 2,23 mUI/ml 1,7 – 12,0
LH 1,74 mUI/ml 1,1 – 7,0
Total Testosterone 3,85 ng/ml 2,80 – 8,00
Free Testosterone 13,1 pg/ml 5,60 – 40,00
DHT 656 pg/ml 300 – 1200
Delta4 Androstenedione 2,59 ng/ml 0,60 – 3,10
DHEA-S 280,00 ug/dl 80,00 – 560,00
3Alpha-diol G 6,80 ng/ml 3,40 – 22,00
Aldosterone 104 pg/ml 35 – 300
Prolactin 7,67 ng/ml 3,00 – 25,00
Estradiol 17 beta 17,59 pg/ml <62>
Progesterone 0,75 ng/ml 0,25 – 0,56
17OH Progesterone 1,80 ng/ml 0,31 – 2,17
Cortisol (8.00 o’clock) 189,18 ng/ml 55,0 – 287,0
Cortisone 44,00 nmol/l 25,00 – 45,00
Corticosterone 3,90 nmol/l <= 10
Pregnenolone 1,32 nmol/l 0,80 – 2,20
17OH Pregnenolone 2,00 nmol/l <= 10
SHBG 32,3 nmol/l 13 – 71
Total PSA 0,879 ng/ml <= 4,000
GGT 41 U/l 11 – 50
Total Bilirubin 0,51 mg/dl 0,10 – 1,20
Albumin 4,70 g/dl 3,84 – 4,80
Creatinine 1,08 mg/dl 0,70 – 1,40

June 22, 2009
Type of test Results Range
FSH 1,7 mUI/ml 1,4 – 18,1
LH 2,7 mUI/ml 1,5 – 9,3
Total Testosterone 4,97 ng/ml 2,41 – 8,27
Progesterone 0,93 ng/ml 0,28 – 1,22
Prolactin 11,0 ng/ml 2,1 – 17,7
TSH (3° generation) 2,289 microUI/ml 0,350 – 5,500
T3 1,30 ng/ml 0,60 – 1,81
Free T4 1,17 ng/dl 0,89 – 1,76

August 7, 2009
Type of test Results Range
FSH 1,86 mUI/ml 1,7 – 12,0
LH 2,14 mUI/ml 1,1 – 7,0
Total Testosterone 5,36 ng/ml 2,80 – 8,00
Free Testosterone 11,3 pg/ml 5,60 – 40,00
DHT 644 pg/ml 300 – 1200
Delta4 Androstenedione 2,90 ng/ml 0,60 – 3,10
Free DHEA 9,60 ng/ml 0,20 – 9,80
3Alpha-diol G < 2,40 ng/ml 3,40 - 22,00
Cortisol (8.00 o’clock) 185,44 ng/ml 55,0 - 287,0
Progesterone > 0,73 ng/ml 0,25 - 0,56
Aldosterone > 164 pg/ml 7,5 - 150
Total PSA 0,787 ng/ml <=4,000
GGT 71 U/l 11 – 50
Creatinine 1,01 mg/dl 0,70 – 1,40
Glycaemia 83 mg/dl 70 – 110
Estradiol 17 beta 24,70 pg/ml <62

#2

40,

Thanks for posting all of your blood tests. I think that can be helpful to all of us. You are closing in on being off of P for 2 years now, are you feeling any better than when you were taking it?

Your Free T has risen and your SHBG has dropped, which is certainly what you want. I noticed your LH level is still low and your DHT is relatively the same which could be part of the problem. WHat improvements have you noticed?

I assume you tested negative for a pituitary tumor. Did your endo dr discuss treatment options for your pituitary gland?

#3

Hi 40, thanks for sharing your story. I share similar sexual side effects as you do. Although, I still have a little libido and am still able to have sex every once in a while. I also have pain the groin region and penis. It is also harder for me to flex my perineal muscles. I went to see a couple of urologists but they tell me I am too young(25 years old) to have these problems and it is all in my head. They refuse to do any specific checks. Although, one urologist said I have epidydimitis and prescribed antibiotics, but they did not make a difference.

I went to see Dr. Crisler and he performed a urine hormone panel. My results are listed in the hormone section. There was nothing specific that he could point out. He told me to take DHEA supplement since my level of it were low, and to re-evaluate in one month with another hormone panel. He is concerned about my high cortisol levels. I stopped DHEA after two weeks because it had no effect and was making my breast/nipples more sensitive. They have been hurting prior to this though.
The only conclusion that we reached was that my 5ARII activity was low. I found some studies that concluded that DHEA raises 3-adiolG and so does creatine. But DHEA has had no effect on me. I will try creatine next after I talk to Dr. Crisler again.

This is so depressing after reading stories like yours it just kills my hope for getting better even more.

#4

Bostonusa2009,

I don’t know if my blood tests could help you. Unfortunately they are not particularly indicative about the root cause of our problems, except perhaps for 3Alpha-diol G low level of 7 august 2009 (2,40 ng/ml). The fact that my Free T has risen and SHBG has dropped contrast with my progressive worsening of health, problems and symptoms during the last two years. I really think that it’s not a question of circulating hormones amount, but rather of theirs’ path and uptake interruption.

The asymmetry of my pituitary gland hasn’t clinic meaning and importance, because it’s congenital. A lot of persons could present this feature without suffer of any problems. Anyway my endocrinologist wanted I tested it for excluding tumour or other anomalies before starting tamoxifen’s administration.

I don’t understand what you mean when you write that part of the problem regards a still low level of LH combined with a relatively unchanged DHT. Can you explain a little better?

#5

My story,
unfortunately there are scientific researchs that demonstrate the structural damages of finasteride in groin region, prostate, testicles, seminal vesicles and glands. It’s the reason of pain and insensitivity, also becouse of cell’s apoptosis. I remember that Solonjk, one of the forum’s members, had mentioned it in the section “Doctor conducting study on finasteride side effects”.

Solonjk tells that “it sais in a specific research paper what damage takes place in the prostate. If it were damaged in a sense of changing towards a malignant structure then we would allready be dead by now. Nevertheless apoptosis is an unwanted procedure when it happens in an early age in our testicles and surrounding genital structures.
If you read that research about effects of finasteride on prostate, testicles, seminal vesicles and glands you will see why we are affected so much in those organs. Plus in the end changing intraprostatic, intratesticular DHT/T levels is not good. Normally prostate is supposed to have (as well as all surrounding tissues that grow and this growth is sustained with the help of dht) more dht than T and in our case we have certainly inverted this by far and this causes all the inflammations and increases in prostate and decreases in testicle size we see. Probably some aromatase activity is increased too or could be.
Its explained there in perfect way, regardin the apoptotic proteins that get increased after finasteride use and a bunch of others necessary for ultimate cellular function get depleted so the end result is a mess
Ultrastructure of prostate and surrouding tissues is not affected in a way that you could call it damaged. Your prostate still works, so do your genitals in general (testicles included) they just work through very difficult circumstances, depleting your body of necessary DhT in order to perform previously easy daily tasks, like giving you the ability to hold an erection”.

My story, I have two questions for you.

  • Which is your opinion about Dr. Crisler? Have you discussed with him if there is any way to increase 3-AdiolG level?
  • Can you indicate to me the studies in which it says that DEHA and creatine raises 3-AdiolG?
#6

40, welcome to the forum and thanks for your detailed story and test results. Many of the symptoms and endocrine system crash timeline you describe is common for members on this site.

If you haven’t already, pls read FAQ at top of site (although it sounds like you’ve already done a fair bit of reading).

This is still theoretical but without research done on us, we’ll never know. That is the objective from this point forward, to try and get such research done.

I’m assuming you have read the thread on gene expression/androgen insensitivity?

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2216

In meantime, it is possible to check for 5AR2 activity via 3-adiol-g tests (which you have done) and also via genital skin fibroblast culture:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1453

You will need to accept that this was not your fault, but Merck’s fault for not fully disclosing the true risks of their medication. We simply took it based on official published information.

If you want to channel your anger, channel it towards a class action lawsuit, and getting awareness within the medical & research community to undertake research on us. Beating yourself up over things is not going to bring you any further ahead and will only turn you into a bitter person. For many, this mess only solidifies their resolve and confidence to better improve themselves, to keep a positive outlook on things, and realize that superficiality and vanity is a useless and dangerous quality which got us into this mess in the first place.

Trust me, we’ve all been there emotionally, and there are various stages we all go through… denial, anger… and eventually for many, acceptance that for now, this is how things are until they try treatments. Even though things have changed for us, it is important to remain optimistic and take action to get the awareness this problem so desperately needs, to get research and lawsuits underway.

This is just my opinion but I would not rely on any other drugs for time being, especially SSRIs which can cause their own set of side effects – sexual, mental, hormonal – which will simply muddle the picture and make it more difficult to assess if your issues are from Finasteride or the other medicatins you took/are taking. This is especially important when dealing with doctors, as they will then have another scapegoat to blame for your problems instead of Finasteride.

There are a few members here who have seen and are currently undergoing treatment with Dr. Crisler, there stories are in the Members Story section. You’ll probably need to do some reading, or use search function to find more details.

There is a list of results for men who have had adiol-g tested here:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2763

For more details on Adiol-G & 5AR2:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=761

Unfortunately it is not possible to test Allopregnanolone in commercial labs, only in research labs. However based on the fact loss of allopregnanolone is correlated with depression during use of Finasteride, and many members’ depression clears up within a few weeks of quitting the drug, it would appear anecdotally that 5AR1 (which is mildly inhibited by Finasteride and is predominant in the brain) is no longer being inhibited and thus Allopregnanolone is working.

The other reason is allopregnanolone is increased during alcohol consumption, which makes you feel drunk via activation of GABA-A receptors. While on Fin many guys report they no longer feel drunk when drinking, but after quitting they can once again feel the effects of alcohol.

Wether the above means 5AR2 is also still working correctly post-Fin, I don’t know.

This is still only a theory, until proven otherwise. Again, please refer to thread about androgen insensitivity/gene expression and read through if you haven’t yet: propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2216

Two members of this site have had their AR tested and they both came back with normal androgen binding and no evidence of mutation. Per the above thread, the notion that the problem may lie downstream from the AR (post-receptor) has emerged.

Nonetheless, it has been documented that supraphysiological doses of Testosterone can overcome androgen insensitivity in some instances. Additionally, from conversations with a biochemist and other specialists that both Awor and myself have had, our understanding is that even if androgen signalling pathways have been remodeled due to loss of DHT, it may be possible to remodel them in the opposite direction via certain environmental factors. What those factors might be is currently unknown, as we don’t know if this is what has in fact happened or what exact pathways/proteins may have been affected if true. The point is, the body is a dynamic system, not static… hence why we need a clinical research study done on us vs men who never took Finasteride, to find the differences between us.

Numerous studies show that Testosterone and DHT are critical in maintaining penile health, erectile and tissue function. In animal models, castration induces fibrotic tissue changes and androgen treatment restores smooth muscle tone. Thus if you are at hypogonadal levels of Testosterone, this may be a big reason for why you are experiencing loss of libido, penile tissue changes etc. If other hormones (ie estradiol) need to be controlled during testosterone treatment (ie, after trying clomid, hCG or Tamoxifen), then that may be what you’ll need to do. Low-dose Arimidex (ie 0.25m) every 3 days during TRT to control aromatization of T–>E2 is a typical protocol if you have elevated estrogen issues.

Since you have been given these diagnoses, what were their suggestions to correct the problems?

In nearly all your blood tests, your Free Testosterone is near the bottom of the range. Since only 2% of Testosterone is available to the body at any one time (the rest being bound to SHBG and albumin), having a higher value here could possibly result in symptom improvement.

Such studies can be found in the FINASTERIDE STUDIES section at top of site.

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=201
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1402
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … 0902#10902

… and others which can be found by reading through that forum area.

Please keep us posted as to your progress with Crisler or any other doctors you see. As well, contacting researchers/professors at universities may be of interest to you, to try and generate awareness and interest to conduct a study on men like us to figure out why these symptoms persist post-drug.

Cheers.

#7

40,
I think Dr. Crisler is trying to help, although I’m not sure what his intentions are. He is the only doctor that has believed me that my problems stem from finasteride use and was willing to conduct various tests. He has not heard of 3-AdiolG when I mentioned it to him in September but was willing to perform the test to check it. I’m not sure if he has done more research into it or not. But the more of us that bring it up with him the more he will probably be willing to look into it. From the urine panel that he does it is also possible to evaluate 5AR activity by doing ratios on some 5alpha and 5beta reduced metabolites of cortisol and cortisone.

Here is a study on DHEA:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2881
ADG refers to 3-adiol-G. DHEA did not seem to help me and might have aggravated my chest pain.

Here is one that talks about creatine raising DHT levels:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1974 … d_RVDocSum

here is a study that I have found that show IGF-1 boosts 5ARII activity and another study that mentions creatine boosts IGF-1 in muscles so by extension creatine should increase 5ARII. This is original research on my part though.
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … t=creatine

#8

40,

This was my orginal reply to your post:

“Your Free T has risen and your SHBG has dropped, which is certainly what you want. I noticed your LH level is still low and your DHT is relatively the same which could be part of the problem. WHat improvements have you noticed?”

We know LH lutenizing Hormone is a component of the Pituitary gland is responsible for communicating with the testicles and tell it how much Testosterone and Semen to produce.

I was implying that possibly raising your LH level would help your body to produce more T and semen. Regarding DHT I was simply mentioning that we would want to see this rise as well and your DHT level has not risen.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luteinizing_hormone

Our hormone profiles are so different, even though many of us took the drug for same periods of time. My LH doesn’t look that bad, but my Free T, Total and SHBG look like crap. Your LH and free T look very bad. Your Total is low as well, but your SHBG doesn’t look bad.

FSH is involved with stimulating production of sperm in the body. FSH is also a pituitary gland product. YOur FSH level is very low. SInce both your FSH and LH are low, I mentioned look to your Pituitary gland.

The bottom line is we all have a different set of issues going on in our bodies. It’s very complex. If my LH level isn’t that bad, one would think my body is producing enough testosterone. Which may be the case, however it just isn’t able to use it because too much SHBG is binded to it.

Also, you mentioned the morning is the most difficult for you. I also have felt the same way. Our hormones are supposed to be at their highest levels in the morning around 8:00. I suspect are very low T levels make us feel lousy in the AM.

If you are not doing so already you should try to exercise and weight training is very good idea. I know it’s very difficult feeling the way you are, but there is a lot of evidence to indicate it helps our bodies produce T.

#9

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#10

Mew,
thanks for your informations and advices. As you had already understood, I read FAQ at the top of site and it orientated me for my blood tests. With regard, I invite you to observe the last one I did on date November 3, 2009 after Crisler’s request.

Type of test Results Range
FSH 2,4 mUI/mL 1,5 - 12,4
LH 4,5 mUI/mL 1,7 - 8,6
Total testosterone 9,58 ng/mL 0,28 - 11,00
Cortisol > 29,2 ug/dL 6,2 - 19,4
LDH > 698 U/L 240 - 480
Sodium > 146,0 nmol/L 133,0 - 145,0
Potassium 4,37 nmol/L 3,30 - 5,10
Chlorine 105 nmol/L 96 - 108
Calcium 9,49 mg/dL 8,60 - 10,20
Phosphorus 3,59 mg/dL 2,70 - 4,50
Magnesium 2,12 mg/dL 1,58 - 2,55
TSH 1,88 uUI/mL 0,27 - 4,20

As you can see, I was in excess of Cortisol (morning sample) and LDH - Lactate Dehydrogenase, an enzyme which can indicate, when high, inflammation’s process in the body or other pathologies (for example hepatitis, muscular fatigue, diabetes, etc.). I don’t believe, anyway, that we could understand our problems only looking at blood tests.

You write there aren’t researchs done on us to prove our possible 5AR2 deficit. I tried to do that on myself, but here in Italy it’s very difficult for two reasons:

  • any doctor takes the responsibility to operate on somebody (for example with a genital skin fibroblast culture) in absence of preventive and valid tests which justify unequivocally this necessity;
  • every doctor says that, even though we could find a 5AR2 deficit by this way, nobody knows exactly what to do for compensating it.
    Now I’m in contact with a doctor who believe me - initially he doesn’t think about unresolved finasteride side effects - and I convinced him to present my case and ask the opinion to the “Ethical Committee”. In Italy, infact, those organisms - composed by meds, philosophers and religious men - decide if it’s worth for doing medical in-depth or researchs in front of new and “strange” pathologies like mine. It’s mean that I will wait too much for any answere and probably it will be negative.

Anyway the question remains: what can we do for restoring a possible 5AR2 deficit? I read and appreciated all the informations you sent to me, but it’s not still clear the way to follow in front of this problem. Trying with testosterone or DHT administration? We know all the risks of this therapies, but may be you have some information more. I’m really disorientate and believe that the same question is open about a possible androgen insensitivity or receptor mutation: what could we do?

You asked to me what were my endocrinologist’s suggestions after his diagnosis of ipoplasic penis and testicles, spongious body’s fibrosis and hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. He said that I could have tried to increase LH and FSH production for “awaken” the androgen receptors by clomiphene or tamoxifen or testosterone 10 mg./day. He considered also DHT administration, but only like last option. As you know, I tried to take Nolvadex 10 mg./day, but after 22 days I was feeling - and feel still now - very ill in spite of an increased blood’s levels that you can verify above. Perhaps this happened becouse I’m not hypogonadal, my testosterone’s level is already into the range and I don’t need it.

With regard of antidepressants, I believe you’re right about SSRI’s side effects. I could only signal that mirtazapine (Remeron) is a NASSA, has not sexual complications and increases allopregnanolone’s level in plasma (see, for example, cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17502460). I took it for three months and had some benefit about humour, muscle twitching and nervousness, but not for extreme anxiety and panic attachs. I think, infact, that unfortunately nothing can be done by antidepressants for recovering our libido and getting out of the catatonic frame of mind which makes suffer me and us so intensely.

This is the third question: why libido, sex drive and positive emotional capacity are literally been washed from our mind? And what can we do to recover just a little part of them? I feel that I’m risking to became for good crazy becouse I can’t imagine to live in this way without solutions. You write that if someone experiences loss of libido and penile tissue changes, testosterone or Clomid/HCG/Tamoxifen treatment could be tried, but reading the forum I understood that only few members tell to have recovered by this way. And you, Mew? What have you done to recover till this moment?

The last question I would discuss with you and the other members regards the prostate and decreased nitric oxide synthase activity. Can DHT help to recover erectile disfunction? Isn’t this hormone very suppressive of HPTA axis, like dr. Crisler says? I would like to know if there is really someone that resolved or improved this side effect of finasteride.

Bye Mew,
40

#11

40, note that DHT does NOT aromatise into oestrogen.
Testosterone does, however.

DHT competes with oestrogen (ie) in breast tissue and prostatic tissue.

Interestingly, I have experienced 2 small breast abscesses in the last year which have self resolved. I also find it hard to develop my ‘pectorals’ at the gym. Possibly due to unopposed oestrogen activity?

My prostate is hurting more and more, and urinary symptoms worsening. Again, possibly due to unopposed oestrogen activity.

I will be starting DHT shots within 2 weeks.

#12

My story,
thank you for you opinion about Crisler and the studies attached.

You say that Crisler is willing to perform the test to check 3-AdiolG level. How? With 5alpha and 5beta ratio of cortisol and cortisone?

You say also that DHEA aggravated your chest pain. What a mess! The problem is that everybody reacts in his own way to the treatments and we could help only telling the single experience, but then it’s necessary to try medicines on ourselves to understand if something improves or gets worse.

I hope you will be more lucky with creatine. With regard of IGF-1 effects on 5AR2, I’ve read the story of “sufferer2001recovered2009”. He’s saying that GH hormone has resolved his sexual problems.

Bye
40

#13

Suffered2001recovered2009,
I know that DHT doesn’t aromatize into estrogen, but I’ve read it’s very suppressive of HPTA axis. Isn’t it true?

I also read your long story and would like to understand if you have had benefits from DHT, or if you have had to wait for GH hormone to recover your libido and erection. If I remember right, you didn’t have any sexual progress with testosterone administration. Or not?

Which are the side effects you experimented in all these years, in particular with GH hormone?

Bye,
40

#14

Bostonusa2009,
look at my new blood test of november 3, 2009 in the post above for Mew. You will see that my LH, FSH and Total Testosterone have increased, but I feel worse than before (nervousness, mental confusion, depression). What I want to say is that I really don’t know how much our problems are connected with blood levels, or may be with other questions more diffucult to treat and resolve.
I confess to feel very confused and depressed in this period. I don’t see the light and, sincerely, I think that eight years of finasteride are really too much for hoping to recover. Happy to be denied by the facts, obviously!

Bye,
40

#15

Hey 40,

Yes, DHT suppresses endogenous T. I’m already on TRT though (Sustanon and HCG).

TRT didn’t help erections. It made me feel better. My pre TRT testosterone was top of the range, so when I say TRT, I actually mean ‘pushing my T level to supraphysiological’.

Proviron helps my erections noticeably. It is a weak oral DHT. I want DHT injections.

Whilst GH helped my symptoms, I aim NEVER to take it again. It is expensive and does not solve the underlying problem. I have noticed an increased supraorbital ridge, but hopefully my family won’t notice!

I am hoping DHT shots give me back my sexuality and improves my urinary symptoms which seem to be worsening (and prostate pain) by increasing Adiol G levels. In theory, they should.

#16

40,

There is no questioning the devastation this drug can cause and the amount of time it can take to recover. However, I am recovering and I think we all can. Are there any other factors in your life that could be contributing to the problems that P caused us? Are you eating healthy, exercising and living a pretty stress free life?

I am unquestionably better than I was three months ago and a ton better than I was 10 months ago. I continue to see improvements week to week and I am not taking any medication, so there is hope for you. I am a believer that rigorous exercise is a big help for us, especially weight training.

If I stop seeing signs that I am continuing to recover, I may feel differently. Try to find something in your life that can make you feel better. I recall when I was at my worst, I was thankful I had my dog. She was always happy to see me and made me feel good when I felt things really sucked and questioned if they would get better.

take care,

#17

Sufferer2001recovered2009,
I’ve read numerous post by yourself, but I still don’t understand if you have recovered or not and, if yes, in which way.
Recently you told that, till 2008, you were unable to have sex with TRT and Proviron, but have only more energy and appetite. Now you’re telling that Proviron helps your erections noticeably.
Then you wrote that you were able to have sex with your girlfriend by HGH at three units per day and recommend this solution to the members of forum, but now you maintain that you will not take it anymore becouse it doesn’t resolve your underlying problem.
Sorry, but I’m confused and have another question for you: how much high is “supraphysiological T level”? Doesn’t this level help your libido? And doesn’t it determine an increase of anxiety and/or depression?
Bye
40

#18

I had a 1200-1400 Testerone level while on clomid, and had a hard time getting it up. Something wrong there? That was on clomid, so no way in hell am I taking TRT if my body is responding perfectly fine from clomid.

Again, get your 3 Adiol G levels checked, we are coming across something here…

#19

I haven’t recovered yet.

I am looking to recover the following:

  • Sexual functioning (erectile function and libido)
    Ejaculate volume and quality

  • I want increased head hair loss (it barely falls out)
    Increased acne and oily skin and sweating

  • Improvement in urinary ‘prostatic’ like symptoms.

This is true. I was unable to have sex on TRT/Proviron.
Yes, Proviron helps erections, but when combined with TRT, I was still unable to have sex. When combined with HGH, I am able to have sex. I have not taken HGH for a month now, and I find that the more Proviron I take, the better my erectile quality. Now, off HGH, my erectile quality has worsened. I’ve made myself quite clear.

Yes, this is true, and yes, I recommended it. Whilst it helped all aspects of my suffering, HGH clearly wasn’t the DIRECT cure for me. Normalisation to top of range for both IGF-1 and IGF BP3 did not adequately cure my symptoms, and I therefore deduced that HGH was not the main player in my suffering. It helped my symptoms, but it was not the cure.

I’m sorry to hear this.

I require 60mg T per week to take me to the top of range for T level. For a while I was taking 250mg T per week and my T was 52 range (9 to 26). I am now taking 150mg per week. I have not tested my T level on 150mg but I know it is supraphysiological. Of note, I require 0.75mg of anastrazole (Arimidex) in 3 divided doses to maintain a mid-range E2 level.

A supraphysiological T has reduced my anxiety and depression symptoms. Of note, I went without HCG for a few weeks in 2005 and I became a real nervous wreck. I can’t understate how important HCG is to a TRT protocol.

40, I trust you are enlightened now as to my current status?

#20

Sufferer2001recovered2009,
thanks for your clarifications. Tell me if I understand them well and, if you want, reply to my questions.

  1. You are always on TRT (Testosterone + HCG) from a lot of years and this is necessary every day for your well-being regarding more energy and lower anxiety or depression, but it’s not effective for your sexual functioning. Is it correct? Is dr. Crisler the one that put you on TRT? If yes, what do you think about him? I ask it becouse, as you know, I’m in contact with him too.

  2. You tell that DHT combined with TRT makes you unable to have sex. So, how can you feel improvements with Proviron, if you are always on TRT? I’m questioning myself if, to be able, you were on TRT (T + HCG) + HGH + Proviron. And now, if you’re off HGH, are you worsening or can you compensate with more and more Proviron? That’s not clear for me.

  3. Does Proviron help only erections, or libido too? Do you feel more sex drive and pleasure with Proviron, or only a better erectile function? Has Proviron some side effects? I think you’re not completely impotent or lacking in libido, so you’re trying to recover all your sexual functionig at 100%, but you don’t start nearly from “zero” like me. Am I right?

  4. You say that HGH wasn’t the “direct” cure, but - if I understand well - only with-it you could have sex. I think that, unfortunately, the direct cure doesn’t exist for majority finasteride sufferers, but may be there are ways to feel better.

  5. It’s possible that your problems of acne, oily skin, sweating and prostate derive from all the hormonal therapies that you’re doing. Or not?

Sorry for the questioning. I’m new into the forum and would like to know something more to exit from this hell. Thanks for reply.

Bye
40