40's nightmare

Bostonusa2009,

I dont’ drink anymore alcoholic beverages becouse, if I do it, I begin to tremble. Before quitting finasteride, I was instead a very good drinker. I eat less and without appetite, but I don’t know what you mean for “healthy” foods. I exercise rarely becouse there are days I can’t not even stand for cronic fatigue and muscular cramps. Before suffering, I went regularly to run two or three times per week. It’s not also easy living a pretty stress free life becouse of work’s care and other engagements. It’s just a nightmare, I said.

How long did you take finasteride? And when have you stopped to take it? I don’t feel improvements, bur rather worsening in all forehead (sexual, mental and physical). This is the trouble. May be I took the drug for too much time and now I can’t feel the signs you perceive on yourself, so I’m pessimistic. It should be sufficient some signal of improvement to change my thought, but that’s not the case…

Bye
40

Lots of Fruits and Vegetables, lean meats, nuts & seeds, fish and whole grain oats and wheat. No fast foods.

I guess we all have a different level of suffering physically and mentally from this drug. What I can tell you for motivation is that 9 or 10 months ago I remember having an incredibly difficult time getting myself to workout, but I somehow managed to get myself to do it. I just promised myself to get through the workout and tried to focus on just that workout not get overwhelmed thinking how am I going to do this all the time.

I assume your just saying that your career is stressful and it is contributing to things. You have to try to take ownership of the situation and if this job is hurting your recovery, go find a job that will make it easier on you. You should make your recovery a top priority in your life.
There is no way I will work in a stressful environment that is going to make things worse for me. I

I took propecia for about 6 years. It wasn’t until I found this website that I really realized what this medication had been doing to me. I have now been off of it a little more than 10 months. I have seen many improvements, but still realize I have a ways to go still.

For now, I have opted to try to beat this drug by letting my body do it on it’s own naturally.

You only took the drug a couple of years longer than I did. I think you need to look for the improvements that you experiencing. You must surely be seeing improvements in some area. You have been off of the medication for quite a while

Bostonusa2009,

thank you for your encouragements and advices. What about pasta and carbohydrates?

The problem is that now I’m not experiencing any improvements and, differently than you, then months after quitting the drug my worsening process was just accentuating. I don’t know, anyway, which are the side effects you experimented with and what has recently changed for you.

I think too that, if I stopped finasteride after five or six years, I haven’t had all these problems, but, as you tell, who could really realize what the medication had been doing to my health? Another negative factor could be my taking Proscar 1,25 mg/day instead of Propecia 1 mg./day for the last four years.

Cheers
40

Solonjk,

I’ve read all your advices and I’m perplexed to begin hormonal therapies, but at the same time I don’t see any other chance. In the last blood test I did - after Tamoxifen administration - T was high and cortisol was just a little over the range (see the post reply to Mew) and I feel more and more worse.

You say that hormones are the best solution becouse they patch up the problem, but then you warn me about all possible and significant side effects of cortisone supplementation (vision loss, glaucoma, break on GNRH production, hypothyroidism, lowered ACTH, etc.). I think it should be possible to try it only for a short period (1-2 weeks), not in the long term. What do you think about TRT or DHT to feel better and increase libido and erection?

You have quit to try patching up the problems becouse it made you feel worse. Which were your problems or symptoms due to finasteride use? And which therapies had you tried before homeopathy? And their long side effects about you tell? Did you take antidepressants? If yes, which kind (es. SSRI) and benefits?

I believe that you went through hell like myself. I don’t know how long you used finasteride, when you have quit and if you recovered some symptoms. Tell me, if you want.

Bye
40

I personally don’t eat a lot pasta. I eat it at most once a week. It really isn’t that good for unless you’re eating a whole grain pasta and most people don’t eat that kind.

Try to get the majory of your carbs from fruits vegetables & whole grains. I will eat something like yogurt in place of ice cream or some other sweet.

I had a ton of sides related to this drug many of which I didn’t realize until I read a bunch of posts here.
I had brain fog, bad memory, speech problems, eye sensitivity to light and wind, anxiety, sleep problems, muscular atrophy, loss of libido, watery semen, lowered semen count, weakened ejaculate, loss of morning erections.

After 10 months off of this crap I still have loss of libido, sporadic morning erections(although this is greatly improved lately) & muscular atrophy still.
I used to have a body builder type physique, so it’s easy for me to measure my recovery in this area. I have still not regained some of muscle mainly in my arms and legs. I have been focusing on the improvements I have made. All of the other sides I mentioned above are gone.

Bostonusa2009,

If you want to tweak your diet even more, you should eliminate ALL grains whatsoever.

Some good resources for this are: “Grain Damage.” by Douglas Graham. This book is short, but to the point and very eye opening. It has some very good science behind it.

Also, you may want to look up the Paleo diet, or the hunter gather diet, which is what I’m on now. Basically it is exactly like the raw diet I was on except I added in eggs and lean meats and cook some of my veggies. On this diet you eat:

Fruit, alot of it. (I mostly makes delicious smoothies)
Veggies, raw and cooked
Nuts and seeds, raw
Lean meats and seafood
Eggs
Very, very limited amounts of dairy, usually in the form of butter

Check out this video in the middle of this page. It does a very good and humorous job of describing why you should eat this way…

boost-your-low-testosterone. … -Diet.html

Since I’ve been eating this way and cycling supps I feel great. I never realized what an actual difference it makes until I did it for a month and then went back to eating grains, just to see what would happen. Man, was I hit with a boost of energy and then the crash from hell came. It changed my mood and everythng. I got foggy headed, cranky, it wasn’t pretty.

Check it out…

Yes, exactly that.

Yes, he introduced me to his TRT regimen, which is excellent. TRT at supraphysiological doses made me feel better. He didn’t recommend TRT at supra levels. I just realised that more made me feel better.

I think he has a good TRT regimen. Other than that, I can’t name anyone who he’s got better. I think he operates within his comfort zone like most docs. He has the benefit of being an ex-bodybuilder and steroid user himself and knows first hand what effect hormone manipulation can have. He goes by SWALE on the bodybuilding forums, and he makes excellent posts.

I’m quite angry he never recommended Proviron to me as it clearly helped my erections. Again, he has himself to think of and is not allowed by US law to prescribe Proviron.

I’m glad I’m not his patient anymore as I think I’ll get myself better through educating myself via journals, info from BB and learning from this website (Adiol G etc).

When on TRT AND Proviron together and then I stop the Proviron, I notice a worsening in my erections after say, 4 or 5 days.

And yes, erections have worsened since stopping HGH. I stopped HGH 1 month ago. In the last week I have increased my Proviron to 6 tablets a day (previously was 1 x 25mg tablet) and my erections have improved, so yes, I feel I am compensating. Also, my skin is more oily.

When I receive Drostanolone (am still waiting legal clearance from Australian authorities to be able to import it), I will not use Proviron as well, as Drostanolone is also a DHT (but more bioavailable, less harsh on the liver as it’s intramuscular and not oral)

I think my libido is higher with Proviron as well. Don’t worry too much about ‘starting from zero’. Dysfunctional is dysfunctional, whether you’re zero or 30% or 50%. The cause is important here and I’m confident we’ll work it out. I was certainly zero when on finasteride and not much more when I discontinued it.

Erm, I’m hoping DHT injections bring my sexuality back. I hope my Adiol G is low. That’s all I’ll say.

I want to get back to my pre fin state. I wish my skin was more oily, that I sweat like I used to, that I get my acne back and that my prostate symptoms resolve.

A low Adiol G could explain these problems (plus the fact that MY HAIR DOES NOT FALL OUT EVEN A TENTH OF WHAT IT USED TO PRE FIN). The side effects of Drostanolone are acne, hair loss, oily skin…all virilisation symptoms. So, keep the hope as I’m sure some chaps here will try DHT shots in the future. Assuming a low Adiol G, the science backs DHT shots as a means to increase Adiol G.

Yes, it’s hell, but I think there is evidence to be hopeful. I won’t stop till I’m better.

JN

CDnuts,

While I respect your opinion about grains. I have my undergraduate degree in nutrition and worked as a nutritionist for 6 years. There are many different types of grains so simply saying you should remove all grains from your diet is definitely not healthy.

There are healthy grains and there are unhealthy grains. The unhealthy ones are the ones that the majority of the world eats. They eat bleached enriched breads, like Italian bread, rolls, white breads. These breads have been refined by man or in other words altered and have very low nutritional value. These types of grains may even be very unhealthy and responsible for certain types of diseases.

Then there are healthy whole grains like whole grain oats, wheat, Barley, Brown Rice, Maize and Rye. These grains contain the bran, germ and endosperm. Some additional health benefit information about Whole Grains: It’s also worthwhile to mention that you need to quite diligent when looking for a whole grain bread many are disguised to be healthy and actually contain “high fructose corn syrup” which is not healthy. Some will show a label “whole grain” and not actually be a whole grain bread. The first ingredient listed on the bread should be: Stone Ground whole wheat flour.

Whole grains have been shown to reduce the risk of heart disease by decreasing cholesterol levels, blood pressure, and blood coagulation. Whole grains have also been found to reduce the risks of many types of cancer. They may also help regulate blood glucose in people living with diabetes.

I highlighted the “blood coagulation” because I’m sure you know low testosterone levels can lead to narrowing of the arteries. Whole grains have been proven to act to free areas of the arteries that are blocked.

Here is study done by the Harvard School of public health on the benefits of whole grains and how it fights hardening of the arteries

hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionso … index.html

If propecia actually caused our arteries to narrow we need all the help we can get and “whole grains” not all grains have medically proven heart and artery benefits.

Well, typically once I hear someone is a classically trained nutritionist, that’s my queue to go the other way! (please don’t feel disrespected) It’s just that these are the same people that tell you to follow the nutrition pyramid, which is the farthest thing from a healthy diet you can get.

Have you read “Grain Damage?”

Our species just doesn’t do well on a diet filled with grains. even “good” grains. We can live, sure. But to thrive, grains should be limited. We can link arthritis, celiac’s disease, and other intestinal difficulties to grain ingestion.

Have you ever tried cutting them out of your diet? I ask because I thought that grains were good for us at one point too, that is until I took them out of my diet for a month and FELT an immediate difference in the way I operated. It was nothing short of amazing. My head was clear, my mood was stable and I didn’t get ravenously hungry between meals. Being a classically trained nutritionist, you probably rely on intellect and studies to back up your beliefs, rather then real world experience.(complete conjecture on my part here, just going on what usually happens to todays nutritionists) They can quote study after study and I can quote study after study that says otherwise, so it really comes down to doing it yourself, to see what happens.

Rather then getting complex carbs from grains, simple carbs from fruit are much easier digested and easier on the system as a whole. Complex carbs are nutrionally expensive, as they tax the digestive system to be broken down into more usable simple carbs. As you know, complex carbs cant be used as is, they need to be broken down.

I would love for you to try it, and see what you think. Thing is, they are also very addictive to give up. That’s not too natural, IMO. How many times have you heard someone say, "oh, I could never give up bread.
" There’s a reason for that, and it lies in the very small amount of opiates in the grains themselves.

Don’t take this post the wrong way, but I would like for you to experience what I did by removing grains from your diet for a month or so. Then, when you put them back in, see how your body responds. I think you’ll be quite surprised, and may even change your view. Of course all of those studies are not completely wrong, they do have vitamins and minerals and other good things in them, how do you think the birds stay alive…

My story,
you have written that it is possible to evaluate 5AR activity from the urine panel, by doing ratios on some 5alpha and 5beta reduced metabolites of cortisol and cortisone.
Could you specify more exactly which are those metabolites and the range’s limits (inferior and superior) of their ratio for evaluating 5AR2 activity? Are there researchs about it?
Thanks

Bye
40

See downloadable PDFs

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … 3678#13678

Mew beat me to it, but the paper describes which ratios are used. The only thing that I am unsure about are the ranges of the results. In the paper they provide normal ranges. I’m not sure if we can directly use them or not. Since they are ratios I’m guessing that the ranges should be similar to that in the paper.

Has anybody had some significant improvement on sexual side effects by protocols of treatment based on Proviron or other form of external DHT? I did a research on this site, but didn’t found nothing clear about it…

From what I recall…

groups.google.ca/group/alt.suppo … b2017722b1

The above link is mentioned in this theory: propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2262

The other person might be JN, as noted in his replies here… however he now admits Proviron did not clear things up for him 100%. He has tried HGH which he thought was a potential cure, but then found the improvements were shortlived. He’s now going to pursue DHT injections, if he can obtain them: propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2261

Don’t have any more info. Might want to ask around bodybuilding sites.

Following dr. Crisler prescriptions, I started off with testosterone cypionate 120 mg. per week on December 28, 2009. Six days before I did a blood test with these results:

Dec 22, 2009
Type of test Results Range
FSH 2,46 mUI/ml 1,7 – 12,0
LH 2,23 mUI/ml 1,7 – 8,6
Total Testosterone 4,97 ng/ml 2,8 – 8,0
Free Testosterone 6,10 pg/ml 5,60 – 40,00
DHT 486 pg/ml 300 – 1200
3Adiol-G 7,50 ng/ml 3,40 - 22,00
DHEA 7,90 ug/dl 0,20 - 9,80
Prolactin 8,77 ng/ml 3,0 – 25,0
Estradiol 17 beta 24,96 pg/ml <62
Progesterone + 0,70 ng/ml 0,25 - 0,56
Cortisol 211,45 ng/ml 55,00 - 287,00
SHBG 27,9 nmol/l 13 - 71
A.C.T.H. 33,5 pg/ml 7,2 - 63,3
TSH 2,330 mUI/l 0,270 – 4,200
Free T3 5,50 pmol/l 3,10 – 6,80
Free T4 19,38 pmol/l 12,00 – 22,00
Somatomedin C – IGF-1 139 ng/ml 90 – 360

At the fourth week of T iniections (120mg./week for three weeks and 80mg./week in the last) I am perceiving improvements and worsenings:

  • my anxiety level, nervousness, muscle twitching and trembling has decreased;
  • I feel an improvement about energy, working capacity and wish to do physical exercises;
  • the rank levels of chronic fatigue and muscle pain have strongly diminished;
  • joint pain is still present (knees, ankles, hands);
  • sexual symptoms have absolutely got worse and I don’t like it no way (testicles are shrinking, pelvic area is contract, erections are more difficult, penis is insensitive, eiaculation is unbelievably poor and sex drive - that was very low - is now at zero level).

Dr. Crisler was happy for the improvement of the physical problems and told me to continue with T for three weeks before doing another blood test and verify if it’s time to go on. Nevertheless I perceived the worsening of my sexual symptoms already from the second week of injections, so I did another blood test after three weeks (Jan 15, 2010). FSH and LH has gone down to 0,23 mUI/ml and 0,15 mUI/ml; Total Testosterone level has increased a lot (9,37 ng/ml, normal range 2,80 - 8,00) and Free Testosterone just a little (15,50 pg/ml); compared to the past, Cortisol has considerably lowered (85,92 ng/ml) and progesterone too (0,58); Estradiol is instead higher, above the normal range (75,43 pg/ml, normal range < 62,00). [Size=4]The most important datum regards 3-AdiolG level: it has incredibly rised (22,20 ng/ml, normal range 3,40 - 22,00), but my sexual symptoms have clearly got worse[/size]. May be this result could deny all the theories about the link between androstenediol glucuronide and finasteride side effects. In the past I had much lower levels of this indicator (see thread above), but felt sexually better than now. Besides it could be considerable that, although T comes appreciably up across the normal limits, my DHT doesn’t rise in a corresponding manner (644 pg/ml) and remains into the levels of all previous tests (from 486 to 656 pg/ml, never in the high part of the range). It is perhaps a signal of a bad 5AR2 activity.

My local endo retains that estradiol is not so high to justify an administration of Arimidex, not even at a low dosage. He indicated too the possibility to use HMG (LH and FSH together) instead of only HCG to treat the testicle’s shrinkage. I would like to know if someone of you knows the menopausal gonadotropine (ie Humegon or Repronex), their possible disadvantages and the reason for which we should generally consider only HCG in TRT, when my local endo informed me that only 20% of testicular volume depends from LH and well the 80% from FSH.

My conclusion, in short, is that 120 mgs/week of Testosterone have certainly improved my physical symptoms, but has surely decreased my sexual problems. For this reason I lowered the dosage to 80mg. at the fourth week and don’t know if to go on in the future, in spite of physical benefits. I’m afraid that this worsening could be due to a shutting down of androgen receptors in genital area and brain, as the intelligent user Awor is theorizing: the more our receptors are damaged, the less we will benefit from TRT. I don’t think, anyway, that the couse is my estradiol higher than usually or an altered T/E ratio.

Cheers
40

I’d say you need some active E2 control and this is the likely source of the sexual problems now, even on TRT.

Talk to Dr. Crisler about Arimidex to bring Estradiol back into range – elevated estrogen in men can kill sex drive, erections etc and yours is clearly WAY beyond the limit.

I’m not so sure, nevertheless I should try to take Arimidex too. It was you, some month ago, who told me about a low dose of 0.25mg. every three days during TRT to control T aromatization in E2. I hope this is the problem, becouse in this case I could have a little chance.

If I continue TRT, I shall also take HCG or HMG (Human Menopausal Gonadotropins). Both make the testicles produce estrogens directly, without aromatization, so I shouldn’t control them with any medicine. Talking with dr. Crisler about HCG, he said that the way to avoid or to reduce this problem is taking a daily and very low dosage (100 UI).

My fear (and conviction) is that all this filthy disease is (also) connected with a damage to our androgen receptors or something similar, so my body could not responde or rebel to my hormonal artifices. We shall see.

Dude, i know you feel like crap…but this is GOOD NEWS…You have successfuly got your 3a-diol G up…This is KEY…

Now, the reason why you are feeling like crap is high estrogen. Anything above 35+ is bad bad bad I believe…Through research on body building forums, body builders say the sweet zone is anywhere between 20-25 I believe…yours is like 70+ dude!

You need to talk to dr. crisler and see if he will prescribe you some armidex…If he does, take it…and retest your hormones when he thinks it’s necessary. If you feel a surge in your sexual function, then…you will be ok!:slight_smile:

good stuff mate about the adiol g

strange dht didn’t come up that much hmm…

estradiol needs to be lowered talk to your doc about arimidex

otherwise get some liquidex or indolplex dim to lower it for better functioning down there , g/l

Perhaps you’re never meant to have that much DHT in your body by nature. Would you suggest everyone that treatment? Or are the sides really that bad?