Yet Another Fool

[neonshift]

Welcome to our community. Please fill in the following template as a way of introducing yourself, and helping others to understand your background and situation.

Where are you from (country)?
United States (born in the UK)

How did you find this forum (Google search – if so, what search terms? Via link from a forum or website – if so, what page? Other?)
Google & Reddit

What is your current age, height, weight?
25, 6’3", 180lbs

What specific drug did you use (finasteride, dutasteride, saw palmetto, isotretinoin/Accutane, fluoxetine, sertraline, citalopram, leuprorelin, etc…)?
Finasteride (forhims topical Min+Fin compound)

What dose did you take (eg. 1 mg/day, 1 mg every other day etc.)?
1 spray every other day @ 0.3% concentration

What condition was being treated with the drug?
Hairloss

For how long did you take the drug (weeks/months/years)?
14 days (every other day, so 7 days)

Date when you started the drug?
September 9th, 2022

Date when you quit the drug?
September 23rd, 2022

Age when you quit?
25

How did you quit (cold turkey or taper off)?
Cold Turkey

How long into your usage did you notice the onset of side effects?
1.5 - 2 weeks (at cessation basically)

What side effects did you experience that have yet to resolve since discontinuation?

Check the boxes that apply. You can save your post first, then interactively check/uncheck the boxes by clicking on them. If your symptoms change, please update your list.

Sexual
[x] Loss of Libido / Sex Drive
[x] Erectile Dysfunction
[x] Complete Impotence
[p] Loss of Morning Erections (partially, seems to have recovered after most recent crash)
[ ] Loss of Spontaneous Erections
[ ] Loss of Nocturnal Erections
[ ] Watery Ejaculate
[ ] Reduced Ejaculate
[ ] Inability or Difficulty to Ejaculate / Orgasm
[ ] Reduced Sperm Count / Motility

Mental
[x] Emotional Blunting / Emotionally Flat (possibly improving, unsure)
[x] Difficulty Focusing / Concentrating (possibly improving, unsure)
[ ] Confusion
[ ] Memory Loss / Forgetfulness
[ ] Stumbling over Words / Losing Train of Thought
[ ] Slurring of Speech
[x] Lack of Motivation / Feeling Passive / Complacency
[ ] Extreme Anxiety / Panic Attacks
[ ] Severe Depression / Melancholy
[ ] Suicidal Thoughts

Physical
[ ] Penile Tissue Changes (narrowing, shrinkage, wrinkled)
[ ] Penis curvature / rotation on axis
[ ] Testicular Pain
[ ] Testicular Shrinkage / Loss of Fullness
[ ] Genital numbness / sensitivity decrease
[ ] Weight Gain
[ ] Gynecomastia (male breasts)
[ ] Muscle Wastage
[ ] Muscle Weakness
[ ] Joint Pain
[ ] Dry / Dark Circles under eyes

Misc
[ ] Prostate pain
[ ] Persistent Fatigue / Exhaustion
[ ] Stomach Pains / Digestion Problems
[ ] Constipation / “Poo Pellets”
[ ] Vision - Acuity Decrease / Blurriness
[ ] Tinnitus (ringing or high pitched sound in ears)
[ ] Hearing loss
[ ] Increased hair loss
[ ] Frequent urination
[ ] Lowered body temperature

[ ] Other (please explain)

What (if any) treatments have you undertaken to recover from your side effects since discontinuation of the drug?
Some basic low risk supplements. Increased exercise (biking to work, and running in the mornings when not biking). Slowly modifying diet to reflect paleo/raw diet a la Chi recovery & others I have read here. Attempting to lower anxiety & stress to aid any natural recovery my body may be attempting.

Supplements I am taking

• 1x Centrum Mens daily
• 4x Vitamin D3 1000IU daily
• 1x Fish Oil tablet 1200mg daily
• 2x Vitamin C gummies 250mg daily
• 1x L-Arginine 1000mg daily
• 2x NAC 600mg daily

If you have pre or post-drug blood tests, what hormonal changes have you encountered since discontinuing the drug (please post your test results in the “Blood Tests” section and link to them in your post)?
I have taken 2 limited scope blood tests since cessation. Only thing of note is my T has improved over 2 months. At 1 month it was 266 ng/dL and now at 2 months it has risen to 406ng/dL.

Anything not listed in the above questions you’d like to share about your experience?
Only other odd side effects I have noticed is my social anxiety has completely evaporated and my appetite is very low or non-existent. It almost feels like the reward center of my brain just went lights out. This has improved during both of my “temporary recoveries” if you can call them that. It however regresses during the crashes.

Tell us your story, in your own words, about your usage and side effects experienced while on/off the drug.

For the past few years I’ve been dealing with progressive hairloss on my hairline that hadn’t really bothered me. Upon entering into a new relationship I worried that my partner might not like it so decided to be proactive about it. Eventually through searching Reddit as I often do for human opinion I stumbled on r/tressless who suggested Fin+Min as the first line of defense against hair loss.

I did some extensive research about the drug (Fin) and even stumbled across this forum + countless reports of Post Finasteride Syndrome across Reddit & Twitter. Foolishly and arrogantly I wrote most of this off as a statistical exception and rolled the dice reminding myself I could stop as soon as I noticed mild symptoms. Likely on account of 1 too many Kevin Mann videos.

I started on forhims topical solution just doing one spray per night every other day before bed. Feeling confident I carried on for the next week and a half roughly until I noticed the onset of sexual symptoms. I wasn’t getting erections in response to porn and wasn’t being as naturally aggressive. Eventually at the 2 week mark the symptoms were very apparent and I immediately decided to quit and wait out the symptoms to see what happened.

I am now just north of the 2 month mark with ups and downs. I had one recovery about 2 weeks after cessation where I got better for 1 week then had the dreaded crash. I had another recovery just recently at the 50 day mark that again lasted for a week. So far this seems to be on some sort of sinusoidal pattern that I hope signals some sort of long term recovery. I am unsure whether my baseline is recovering. My daily journal I keep seems to suggest as such but I’m hesitant to say so. While crashed I suffer from a complete lack of libido, brain fog that waxes and wanes in intensity, and a general anhendonia/lack of emotion.

I am sorry for ignoring you all and wish everyone here a swift recovery. I understand my case is comparatively much milder than many others here. I will document my ongoing journey & therapeutic attempts here in the interest of possibly helping any others. I will be keeping my visits to this forum as infrequent as possible for my mental health but will try to provide updates. Staying hopeful for a recovery.

God speed.

[Sugarhouse]

Welcome @neonshift - I’m really sorry to hear about your situation. I hope things improve for you.

You’re right - there is a lot of misinformation out there about this condition. My story is one of those on YouTube and my image has even been used for the cover image on one of Kevin’s videos, and I can understand the arguments he (and others) make can be very convincing.

Please continue to report back, and if you would like to get involved in any other way, happy to chat.

Thanks,
Mitch

[neonshift]

Following up here with a question for the community: my mental state has seemingly been steadily and slowly improving since cessation in almost perfect 2 week or 15 day cycles. Is it likely sexual symptoms will follow suit at some point or are these things not correlated? I do get a few days of slight libido when these cycles are at their highest but overall sexual symptoms don’t seem to have made much progress comparatively

I have been graphing my perceived cognitive state (1-10) hourly and taking the average each day which so far has looked like so

Also while I understand he is controversial in these parts I’m planning on beginning the CDSNuts/TMO protocol soon and will report back my results.

[Henrique]

Be careful with the CDNUTS protocol, because it contains alpha blocking substances that can make your situation worse,

[neonshift]

Yeah I am aware of the issues with certain herbs and compounds. I am avoiding Ashwagandha for the time being but trialing others in a rotation a la:

Tribulus*
Fo Ti
Horny Goat Weed*
Royal Jelly
Cordyceps
Mucuna L-Dopa*
Pine Pollen
Tongkat Ali
Shilajit
Rhodiola*

* denoting which I have tried thus far with no negative effects.

[Cbrandel]

Pine pollen and Cordyceps are anti androgenic / 5ARI.

I advise you to not use.

[neonshift]

Understood, thank you for the heads up. Sounds like I’ll need to do more reading before diving in

[neonshift]

Just a quick update to my story since I’ve been in a horrible downswing the past week or two. I’ve been attempting to improve my health holistically from every angle I can and have had minor improvements with some setbacks wrought by my experimentation with hormones

• [+] Morning erections are much more consistent now albeit fluctuate when I tinker with hormones
• [+] Libido has come back very slightly here and there - I was able to have sex for the first time since crashing a few weeks ago
• [-] My brain fog however remains my most stubborn and worst symptom. It feels like there is some awful filter between me and the world preventing me from “grasping” it or absorbing what I am looking at. It feels horrible not being able to enjoy my hobbies or even absorb what should be a nice relaxing vacation. Even reading is sometimes difficult

Overall mentally I am not doing well. I have had dark thoughts as I’m sure many others have. I am currently responsible for taking care of my mother so I am considering maxing out my life insurance policy and riding this out for at least as long as it takes their suicide clause to age out. I feel trapped and tortured. I dread what it will do to my mother, girlfriend, and friends if I take the cowards way out here but I cannot see any other option. Sometimes I think of what my funeral will look like.

I’m sorry if I’m not supposed to discuss these thoughts here. I know it is distressing to others too, it’s why I avoid this forum like the plague as it does horrible things to my mental health. I just felt the obligation to update my story, my mere data point in a sea of suffering.

For now however I’m gonna keep swinging. I’m going to try everything I can…

• I have a trip to a fasting facility scheduled in July for a 21 day fast to see if it improves anything
• I plan on trying hCG + DHT gel at some point to see if it modulates symptoms
• I plan on trying BPC-157 to see if it improves gut function and consequently anything else
• I am running an almost perfect diet trying to hit every macro in cronometer every single day
• I am doing HIIT and weight training 5-6 days a week and my body is already in very good shape, I wish my mind followed suit
• I am rotating helpful herbs and supplements as I’ve tested them
• I am doing daily meditation, reducing stress as much as possible, and avoiding online talk as much as possible

My current supplement stack for reference

• Glycine 5g/day
• Inulin 3g/day
• Creatine Monohydrate 5g/day
• L-Glutamine 3g/day
• Boron Glycinate 6mg/day
• Taurine 500mg/day
• NAC 900mg/day
• Thorne ALA 300mg/day
• Swanson Citrus Pectin 2/day
• Prescription Assist 2/day
• Cultured Coconut 1tbsp/day

[neonshift]

I did not mean to imply that, I apologize

[tjanok]

I would be curious to see how the fasting helps with your mental state. Our description of brain fog is the same, and fasting makes it worse for me personally. But for most - it seems to bring some sort of clarity.

[neonshift]

Fasting has been beneficial for me already. I’ve done 2x 5 day fasts so far that seem to clear me up a bit/bring baseline improvements. So far the main things that have (temporarily) helped me with brain fog are thyroid surrgoate type substances like caffeine, aspirin, niacinamide and androsterone. Bacopa helped almost totally clear my brain fog but put me into a suicidal depression and almost totally evaporated my ability to sleep.

I’ve been running an experiment this week with high doses of iodine that seems to have been doing wonders bizarrely. I am not sure why. My guesses are it’s thyroid modulating capabilities or broad spectrum anti microbial properties in the gut. Could be doing more harm than good but I don’t care.

I am chasing down more and more drastic routes of experimentation as times goes on. As I get more and more grim thoughts I’m more willing to just do whatever. I figure if I feel suicidal then trying anything is at least a little better. The option of checking out being available whenever I want is actually kind of comforting now.

As a quick update this week: Been on BPC 157 for a few days which has seemingly helped restore sleep to 100%. Brain fog isn’t bad at all surprisingly. Only things still unchanged or worse now are libido and general drive/reward mechanism which I imagine are related to dopaminergic signaling / f’d up androgenic signaling in brain/CSF.

My next major lab rat like experiment on myself will involve running some kind of test/preg/dhea base or hCG + high dose topical DHT + thyroid support & iodine to see how it modulates symptoms. If I get an intense urge to “check out” as it were I am even considering modulating this experiment with a non steroidal anti androgen like RU or pyri as these, from what I’ve seen in anecdotal reports, have a unique ability to stir up the initial volatility of the crash and even in one case I have seen… recover someone outright bizarrely. I do understand the mortal risk of trying such a compound.

The most interesting take I’ve come across on the condition (while empirically baseless like any other take) is that it seems to be some codependent/reflexive failure of androgenic signaling + extrathyroidial function. We all seem to present with lots of hypogonadal & hypothyroid like symptoms and one of the semi-common things I’ve seen across recoveries (with exception of father time) has been androgens and/or thyroid modulation. For example lots of CDSNuts recoveries use Androsterone which metabolizes to DHT and is a potent thyroid mimetic. I’ve seen lots of recoveries using supra physiological doses of DHT and even some dumping loads of iodine. Even @BrongFogBoy recently who was dumping >1g of iodine into himself daily before his FMT. No telling if it was it’s anti microbial properties that did it or possible thyroid overstimulation but interesting none the less

There is a guy over on another forum I’m not sure if I can mention who made a very convincing case for this and seems to have recovered possibly in part due to iodine+DHT+RU58841. I’m not desperate enough to start spraying some more rat poison on myself in the form of RU58841/pryi/whatever yet but it’s tempting. I have also gathered many other anecdotal reports about folks trying some kind of AA or NSAA after getting PFS and getting several day windows of 100% function. The question then is there some functional way to make these windows “stick” back into a normal metabolic/non-diseased state. The random fluctuation of this disease and almost miraculous recoveries in some cases has me convinced there is… but finding how to without crashing myself into a coffin is the rub I suppose. Almost makes me wonder if I could buy some actual rats.

Overall I’m still alive somehow despite my dumb experiments. I know there is a way out of this condition. I may never find it within my lifetime but I’ll at least die trying. I’ll keep reporting everything on here to share any knowledge that might be useful for future observers.

I hope everyone else is fairing OK. You’re all warriors and deserve nothing but recovery. o7

[PeaceHugs]

First, I’m sorry this happened to you. I feel you on not being a constant presence in the Finasteride conversation for my mental health. For me, lately, it’s actually been helpful to read the same conversations happening over and over here, partially because I don’t want to discuss this with anyone in my normal daily life. Also, I feel like this group really understands in a way that no one in my daily life has understood. In fact, the only person in my daily life who said anything useful was a friend who said to find other guys in my situation. That sounded unhelpful to me when she said it. But, now that I’m here, I feel much better when I’m here than I do anywhere else. Also, there’s no reason to feel like your situation is any less than anyone else’s. Everyone here has been hit by the bus. Everyone here could use a hug. Weirdly, it’s comforting for me to hear how many other people are contemplating suicide too. Like, weirdly, each guy who says he wants to kill himself makes me feel like I have another brother, and another reason to stick around and see if he posts again. I hope no one here actually does it. But, I would totally understand. I would completely get it. I do think it makes more sense to take poison-pushers with me if I were to do that, but I actually think that I end up finding a project, even with my destroyed psychology and physiology, and it’s the reason I keep going.

I didn’t read every word of your entire thread, so I’m not sure if you mention this, but you don’t have to make a lab rat of yourself. It’s okay if you want to keep testing options, and it’s okay if you accept where you are and try nothing more than time. Also, you still matter even if you don’t get back to what you were before. You’re still putting a lot of energy out, you’re still clearly analytical. It’s great if you find something that reduces or eliminates your symptoms. It’s also okay if you turn that energy toward any other project. It’s also okay if you lay in bed for a year and do nothing at all.

[tjanok]

@neonshift

ssible thyroid overstimulation but interesting none the less

Awesome approach man. Keep us posted! The iodine is very interesting after I read about Brong’s experience.

[BibFortuna]

You got sources for either?

I don’t mean to give a fire-and-brimstone sermon but I really got something to say. This community seems to have a bit of a problem with stuff like this. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen someone randomly pop in to a thread to say “heads up, X is a 5ari” while having nothing to back it up. Either provide a source or acknowledge that you don’t have one and that your comment should be taken with a grain of salt, but don’t just confidently spread unsourced information.

Okay, mini-rant over.

[neonshift]

This is a beautiful read and made me smile. You sound like an incredibly kind and wise person. Thank you for sharing this

[neonshift]

Honestly agreed. The term “5ARi” has lost any meaning for me after browsing this forum. Eggs are a 5ARi if you dig enough on pubmed. What may or may not crash an individual is a complete unknown… feels like I’ve heard folks here claim everything from bread to too much sun has crashed them.

I think making aggressive passes at trying to recover from this comes with implicit risks one must accept. I’ve tried herbs like Tribulus that have sent me into a weeks long spiral meanwhile aggressive doses of a 5ARi like cordyceps did nothing but kill my dicks ability to function for a week or so.

Frankly given the choices I am faced with, it feels like the most insane one is just passively sitting and waiting this thing out. I’m obviously not going out and swallowing Fin again but I’ve stopped allowing other’s bioindividual experiences to dictate my own therapeutic journey and while I am still clearly suffering I am no doubt alive today as a result of many of these substances bolstering my ability to cope with my condition. Caffeine, Androsterone, and more recently DHT and Allopregnanolone have been clear needle movers for me, allowing me to function enough to continue my day job and support my family

While I continue to support the collective efforts at research and am hopeful that we might have some mechanistic answers in the next few years I don’t think solving this thing medically will be simple, quick, or wrought by a single therapeutic. This drug affects so many disparate systems in the body like androgen signaling, 5aR metabolites in the CSF, prostaglandins, immune function/cytokines, cell proliferation, even possibly seemingly unrelated stuff like the progesterone receptors I’ve heard some theorize about.

Having poured over a few hundred PFS recoveries I’ve collected data about in a spreadsheet the most common needle movers seem to be holistic treatment like strict diet and exercise followed by a few hormones like Androsterone, hCG, and DHT. While there is obviously no silver bullet I think it would be foolish of me to leave any stone unturned in my own journey.

[Erik]

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