Why some men supposedly recover or improve with supraphysiological levels of T

This is pure speculation, just based on logic.

As we know 30% of DHT is formed through 5ar I and about 70% with 5arII. Now, suppose our 5 ar II does not work anymore because of fin. We are stuck with 30% of DHT from an already lowered T. See, 30% conversion of DHT from 700 ng/dl Testosterone is one thing, 30% conversion of DHT from 300 - 400 ng/dl can obviously make a difference in someone’s metabolism.
It is easier to see this in numbers. For someone whose Total testosteone plummeted from 700 ng/dl to 400 ng/dl for example, the reduction in total DHT and further 3 adiol G could represent a decline of 83% from the amount he had before taking Propecia.

Example (some numbers don’t correspond to actual ranges):
Guy “a”: had a total T of say 800 ng/dl - take 100 ng/dl of this amount to be converted in DHT. He is not taking propecia yet. Then he starts taking propecia and it blocks 5arII (70% of total dht conversion) -> DHT goes down from 100 to 30, right? (the rest probably was tranformed into E2) Ok. Studies (from Merck :imp: ) show that there is no problem in living with only 30% conversion. BUT, somehow most of us saw a decrease in our total T levels, if T has declined to 400, for example, the real number for this guy is now 17.1 of DHT. So, 83% of recuction from the number he had prior to starting Propecia.
Now, some will say “So how my Dht numbers show above scale?” Well, my first blood test showed the same thing, 50% above range. This could be a temparary situation, the body trying to rebalance (the liver can produce DHT as well). Now my blood tests show mid range DHT but under range 3 adiol G. All doctors say DHT test is not very reliable, so i ll take the 3 adiol result.

Treatment (theory):
So, basic math again: if Guy “a” has only 30% of his 5ar working (the type I), and his Total T is 400 ng/dl, he would need an increase of 488% in Total T to bring his DHT to levels he had before propecia. This would be 1952 ng/dl of Total T in order to reach the same level of DHT conversion. Obviuosly this is unhealthy. But if he could bring his T to the top range around 1500 ng /dl (top range), i think this could bring some improvement. The basic thinking is extra T to make 5ar type I do the job.

In this process, there could be a bonus, the extra T could “reactivate” some of the Type II. I don’t think Clomid or Tamoxifen would be appropriate for this, even hypogonadal men have mixed results with these drugs, they increase the numbers but seem inaffective. Some Gels, like the one that is expected to be converted into DHT on the skin would not be effective for us (Type II is on the skin, if ours is damaged it would not work). I think this would have to be eighter a T gel that is absorbed as Testosterone or T injections. And any regimen would need an anti aromatase drug like Arimidex.

Of course some of this is speculation, and i am sure some people here have thought about this, but i decided to post as it can give us new ideas.

Perhaps?

books.google.ca/books?id=RxiWaP0 … sd&f=false

Well, Mew, in our case i think it is more apropriate to consider it possible but not granted. This experiment was done in tissues never exposed to Finasteride. This drug is so ridiculously potent, that i honestly always expect the worst scenarios.
Thanks for the input.

Are you referring to the screenshot?

The tissues were exposed to Flutamide which is an actual antiandrogen, blocking both Testosterone AND DHT from binding to the androgen receptor – which is even more potent than what Finasteride did (lowered DHT levels ~65-70, increased Testosterone).

So, if anything the screenshot should be encouraging since those tissues were exposed to a drug even more potent than Finasteride, effectively preventing any androgen from exerting its effects – yet they found Testosterone increased 5AR2 gene expression afterwards.

Granted this is likely in rats or mice, but still interesting to note.

Sweet!!

I suggest you get yourself a tube of Andractim (DHT gel) and give that a try. For me it was 100% clear that our problem has got nothing to do with 5AR/DHT after having gone through 20 odd tubes myself. I’ve got labs showing my DHT increasing by a factor of 3 to 50% over reference ranges while on the gel. Not only did this little experiment not improve my situation, it made it worse.

Sorry to hear that awor. My goal with this post was brainstorming. So i guess it should be something related to AR or gene expression. After your response, i read some of your posts, and how much stuff you have tried, hey, thanks for all the tests you’ve done, it helps us all. I haven’t read all your posts yet, i am right now reading the thread “Finasteride caused Androgen insensitivity or altered Gene expression?”. I have realized i need to read more threads in this forum, i am finally not so depressed anymore and will spend more time studying.

Hate to ask this but where did you apply it?