Why is theories section not viewable without login? Thanks.
An adjustment was made to the settings.
I assume the reason for making the theories section hidden was because it may prove to be embarrasing if any media or medical types start reading it - especially with all the crap in there recently.
If so - is it not time to start being a bit stricter? I mean, the amount of crap written about ‘reverse t3’ and ‘adrenal fatigue’ and ‘cortisol production lines’ has really gotten out of hand recently. Highly embarrasing if any serious persons read it.
I’m no fan of this cortisol-production line is the cure crap but adrenal fatigue has been suggested by Crisler himself as being part of this condition for many. That’s a doc with vast experience of seeing us guys and our bloods. It is also treated by Shippen and Hertoghe among others, so to dismiss it as medical quackery is a big mistake imo.
We’re just laymen trying to figure things out so inevitably there’s going to be a load of half-baked theories kicking about, probably your’s included! I don’t think self-censorship should be applied on the forum unless it gets drowned in a load of dumbass stuff.
I’d like to remind you that that theory is posted in the homepage of Dr Crisler’s website, and therefore must have some value. If it was total crap, he would not allow it.
plus JN fixed himself using cortisol and getting rid of RT3… oscar have you even tested yourself for it? i don’t see why you are so against it when clearly we have RT3 problems. look at my labwork… i have too much RT3 in my body, its in the lab, you can’t deny that lol.
What Oscar denies is NOT that RT3 is not high or that cortisol is not good. What he denies (and others do too) is that this RT3 and cortisol theory has nothing to do with libido and sex problems. I actually completely understand their concern, because I cannot find any paper that explains it. But, on the other hand, I think they should not ignore the concrete cases of people that, by addressing those problems, made it possible for hormonal therapies to work: JN, Dury. Or other people, like correiovip and theDuck, who just by increasing their cortisol (by prednisone and biotin, respectively) they boosted their sex drive.
Although these methods won’t work on everybody, these cases indicate that sex drive can be improved by other hormones than testosterone, DHT, and E2. Furthermore, even if we were androgen insensitive, these cases give us some hope that an improvement is possible by acting on cortisol-production line and thyroid hormones.
i see. from what i read here, medical-library.net/reverse_t3_dominance_syndrome.html , it says that low sex drive can happen because of it. that guy is a doctor… STTM also says sex drive can be effected by this. although i can see that they are not that concrete, but then again, this condition is not concrete either.
chilln over at allthingsmale who is like a god on hormones claims the finasteride problem is a cortisol production line problem, i’d say he’s pretty damn knowledgeable on the subject, heres that link:
musclechatroom.com/forum/content.php?121-baldness-and-prostate-101
Posting links to spam/shady anti-aging doctor’s websites that are designed to sell you supplements and treatments does not qualify as a legitimate source.
Do not keep posting this spam. The doctor is already listed on the Quackwatch website and the entire nature of his site is geared towards selling you miracle cures for whatever ails you. Pure snakeoil salesmen techniques, peddled to gullible believers. The fact people keep falling for this stuff should make you step back and rethink how you critically evaluate sources of information, especially online.
Someone’s anecdotal experience with this “doctor” when seeing him for HIV/AIDS related issues:
While I respect other posters’ knowledge, none of us (including he) are qualified physicians.
If Chilln claims to have the answers to everyone’s problems, then we should all be easily cured and on our way, and biochemical/molecular researchers and andrologists like Traish and Irwig would have no need to publish the papers they recently did.
When Crisler himself admits the medical community doesn’t know what is going on with us or why men continue to suffer from Post-Finasteride Syndrome – youtube.com/propeciahelp#p/a/u/1/BEGCTMtlgoc – and the fact that others like Dr. Jacobs also are struggling to understand why, that should tell you something: That unfortunately this problem is extremely complex and will not be solved through anonymous Internet postings and armchair doctors. Rather, it will be solved in a lab.
The sooner people realize and understand this, and concentrate their efforts to make this happen, the better off you, I and everyone else will be. For example, Dr. Irwig is currently conducting a 2nd study to measure hormonal and fertility parameters in men affected by persistent Finasteride side effects: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=4815 .
Here is an example of an interested medical professional and academic reaching out to help us, out of his own interest in our problem. What have members (collectively) done to help make this 2nd study getting published a reality? Have each of YOU signed up to participate yet? If not, WHAT are you waiting for? Take the necessary steps and actions to MAKE THINGS HAPPEN, TODAY.
We can theorize all day and night amongst ourselves, but until we are actually studied in a lab, we will be no closer to answers. In that regard, all this theorizing and no action is starting to bother me, in that we need more concrete and real-world actions to be taken to get things done, rather than debate back and forth all day online.
If people put in 1/10th the time & effort they spend debating in circles over concepts baked out of thin air/pseudo-science, and put that time into participating in research initiatives, generating real awareness and contacting researchers to move the problem forward, we’d all collectively get towards the goal of getting this problem investigated and hopefully solved, FASTER. Otherwise, you are just wasting time spinning wheels.
Trust me – just as those before me and after, I’ve also put in massive amounts of my time theorizing and researching the problem, but there is only so far you can take it as a layman reviewing published articles online in order to formulate an opinion. The real work STILL needs to be done by scientists who will investigate this condition on our behalf.
This forum is meant to be a place of support and information sharing, yes. But we must also work together to get this problem the attention it so desperately deserves, and that means getting media and medical awareness that the problem exists, and participating in research initiatives when such golden opportunities are presented to us.
Thanks to Dr. Traish and Dr. Irwig’s recent papers, such attention is starting to occur – now let’s keep the ball rolling and make things happen in the real-world, rather than spending years theorizing online with nothing to show for it.
I agree with Mew. Theories are only so good. They have their use but it is limited. We’ve all made them and each one has supporters.
But bottom line is the the facts will only be found in a lab. Debating about how one is more right than another without doing proper full blown research studying reputable articles such as journals etc… is useless and quoting the odd doctor is again useless. I see nothing wrong in people doing literature reviews in a scientific manner but most people here lack those skills.
I offered to help Dr Irwig write the paper on depression but he said he already had medical students helping him.
So be useful!
Take part in the study please folks!
Good post Mew
BUT I do think this whole “we need saved by a master Scientist” concept literally (for no good reason) is being used as a reason NOT to try address ovbious hormonal imbalances.
If your bloods indicate adrenal problems, try FIX THEM. Thyroid problems? Emmm, try fix them. If you have low testosterone? How about trying to boost it? Of course all this should be done by the best endos or the likes of Dr Crisler who actually know what they’re doing.
Yes, it’s all well and good investigating the root causes and potential blanket cures but at the end of the day, we are where we are individually and we will all have different experiences with different treatments. Most milder cases on here will probably enjoy substantial improvement by the right hormonal treatments. I have no doubt about that.
All that shouldn’t discourage people from participating in studies etc, this whole effort should be in tandem with BOTH causes.
You’re a relative newcomer to this site. Many men have attempted to be treated by docs, including PFS docs, with little success. Stating people have not tried to treat or fix themselves due to “laziness” or “waiting for someone else to find the answers” is exactly the type of attitude we don’t need.
What you wrote above is your personal opinion based on a limited view of activity on this site. I can tell you that if it were as easy to fix ourselves as you claim, then none of us would be here. However, historically speaking this has not been the case. That is the problem.
Re-watch the Crisler video again Colin – he specifically defines the problem in detail: for men who may be hypogoonadal, he can try and jumpstart their systems, but all to often there are men with normal Testosterone values who continue to have all the symptoms of hypogonadism. He doesn’t know why, and he has infinitely more knowledge on this problem that any of us combined considering his training and background. Same goes for Dr. Alan Jacobs (who alludes to androgen resistance as a possible cause in his blog posts), Dr. Shippen and others.
If they don’t have the answers yet, you have to understand this problem is far more complex than you are giving it credit (adjustment of hormone levels). Many people have tries this over the years on this forum and others, without success. It’s time to start looking beyond hormones, and get to the root of the matter at what is likely the molecular/receptor, genetic and gene expression level.
What do you think people have been doing around here all this time, twiddling their thumbs? See comments above.
People have tried various therapies under the most competent PFS docs and while some have had mild improvements, we have not seen a flood of "100% cured recovered users over the years.
Hence why the Recoveries section is so small.
Hence why Dr. Traish and Dr. Irwig recently published articles on the problem.
Hence why increasing media awareness is starting to be written about it.
Hence why we have quotes like this, from Dr. Traish to prove the point that this is an extremely complex problem that goes beyond simple hormonal adjustments:
We get YOUR position that you think this can be solved through simple hormonal adjustments, but as mentioned you need to wake up and smell the coffee – guys have been doing this for year’s with little to show for it.
When research experts such as Traish admit they “don’t know why” something “biological gets shut off, and shut off for good”, that should make it clear to you that this is a problem that WILL require investigation in a lab, likely at the molecular/receptor/genetic level as mentioned before.
Colin, I appreciate your encouragement for people to correct their hormonal issues first and foremost, and I agree. But if and when that fails, you have to look beyond it, and the next likely area is molecular. If you disagree with all of the above, no offense but maybe you aren’t suffering from the same issues the rest of us are.
Mew,
I agree that, most likely, fixing a hormonal imbalance cannot “completely” fix us. I would also like to clarify that this “cortisol” based view does not contradict the androgen resistance theory, i.e. they can live together. But note that, although we may be insensitive to androgens (as theorized by respected doctors such as Goldstein, Crisler, etc…), we are NOT insensitive to cortisol, thyroid hormones, or neurotransmitters. This is proven by the fact that people’s improvements are most often only limited to “cortisol-thyroid-neurotransmitters”-driven symptoms, such as fatigue, racing heart, brain fog, or insomnia, while most often no improvement is made on symptoms that are strictly driven by T/DHT, such as libido.
This reasoning implies that the “cortisol-thyroid-neurotransmitters”-driven symptoms can be treated, at least in the vast majority of cases. Hence, although fixing hormonal imbalance cannot cure T/DHT related issues, there is nothing wrong in trying to address symptoms caused by thyroid, cortisol, or neurotransmitters issues, because we know that they can be likely improved.
Mew, i don’t disagree. I know some people appear seriously unresponsive to hormonal tweaking. I’ve no doubt there’s complicated roots to all.
Even then though, given the complexity that is the endoctrine system, saying that “some” protocols haven’t worked doesn’t rule out all hormonal treatment. I mean, if you are trying to cure anything, you can’t conclude nothing works until you’ve literally tried every type of protocol out there (which noone have even came close to because its not even possible) with different combinations, durations and doseages. Considering most people on here haven’t even got full adrenal checkups, insultin resistance testing, full thyroid profiles or even an extensive list of sex hormones tests, then i don’t see why you are so readily overlooking the importance of giving the endoctrine system a very extensive checkup.
Dr Crisler said in a thread recently (in response to me) that he has had the odd guy with seemingly normal levels but yet presents with all these problems. THAT is fucked up. Thing is, even among this forum, that appears quite rare, no? I’d like to see examples? The above probably even applies to them.
Again, im not trying to downplay real scientific research (im desperate to see this done!!) but im also 99% sure that if everyone on this forum was given unlimited resources to the best medical care and attention available that most would have atleast partial symtomatic recoveries which would raise their living standards. For the forseeable future that is really what most people want - relieft from symptoms. I want a 90% recovery and i’ll be happy. If ive got molecule changes or gene changes, fuck it, ill get over it so long as i feel decent.
Lastly, ive went through most of the notable efforts on this forum and there isn’t actually as many elaborate attempts as you seem to imply. Not to mention doesn’t Dr C claim he’s cured a decent percentage and Dr Shippin say that something like 40% benefit from PCT restarts?
Look, I’m not against improving symptoms. That is a given and hormonal therapies may provide some symptomatic relief. But they are band-aids for after the fact and don’t address the ROOT CAUSE of all of our issues.
What I’m trying to make clear is that we need scientific research to investigate WHY THIS PROBLEM IS HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PLACE, and why only in a specific subgroup of Finasteride users.
Why is it that we are affected by this syndrome while others are not? Why is it when we quit the drug, for the most part there’s a surge of DHT which then quickly shuts down androgenic response in the body from that point forward? Why do most men have sub normal Adiol-G and hypogonadal Testosterone values within weeks of quitting the drug? How can inhibiting and then no longer inhibiting 5AR2 and other dependent pathways cause these effects? In short, WHY does PFS occur, and why only in us?
We can theorize all day but nobody has true answers yet because the question has not been scientifically investigated yet.
When scientists can give us answers as to why our bodies reacted the way they did after quitting, to cause persistent side effects to continue, complete loss of sex drive, penile shrinkage, complete loss of morning/spontaneous/nocturnal erections etc, THEN we will be closer to answers and hormonal treatments and likely other therapies can be applied with much more likely success.
Until the question of WHY “Biologically, something gets shut off and gets shut off once and for all” (as Dr. Traish puts it) is answered, we are still fumbling in the dark. So let’s work together to get this question answered by generating the necessary media and medical awareness, participating in research opportunities available to us, and getting more researchers interested in this problem.
Correcting hormonal values is obviously an objective for many as well, to hopefully enable symptomatic relief, but it is a seperate undertaking vs. the core issue of figuring out why PFS occurs in the first place.
Why should it be necessary for the administrators of Propeciahelp to edit the way the forum is displayed and dedicate time to repeatedly stating the obvious to certain individuals?
Why should it be the case that certain individuals can effectively spam Propeciahelp with misinformation, crazy unsourced ideas, false endocrinology and blatant lies (“the PFS docs have cured people”)?
Certain individuals quite clearly have an embarrasing lack of knowledge of this subject for some reason and seem immune to rational discussion, in fact its almost as if they cant read the responses to them at all (not a good idea on a text based forum 
)
And now we learn that those same certain individuals have been having long conversations with the doctors listed on this website? Jeeesus, what on earth must they think? This is exactly what we do not need. I wouldnt be suprised if those docs now believe this whole website is an experiment in mass hysteria. Hindering progress on this forum is one thing - in the ‘real world’ quite another.
Certain individuals are really not helping. Their position must be untenable.
Why would their mindset be like this anyway?..
I’m getting a little bit tired of this whole mentality.
Let’s be honest here…
The REALITY is that a certain percentage of people on this board have probably suffered sexual difficulty SOLELY due to psychological and mental issues that they blame on finasteride. Some won’t have any real physical problems. Many of these guys find miraculous recoveries from the most simple of things (usually engineered by themselves). Amazing eh?
I fucking wish i wasn’t the same “as the rest of us”. The REALITY is i’m one of the real sufferers.
My issue are 100% physical. Shooting penis pain (one fucking YEAR after stopping finasteride), loss of girth, watery semen, dry skin and sky high estrogen.
The REALITY is that some members may have had contributory factors to their PFS. This may be due to use of steroids in the past, sexual problems long before fin or the fact they took anti-depressants or certain other drugs. If anything, i am in that sub-category that stands up to scrutiny beyond all doubt that i have been altered thanks to finasteride. I will pass every question the doctor or endo asks when they are curious as to whether im a true sufferer. I’m young, am and was otherwise always 100% healthy, never took ANY other drugs of any kind, and was previously super sexual without a shadow of issue. My sexual sides are PHYSICAL as proven by my physical sides and my bloods. Say what you want, but the only thing i truly lack is base bloods.
The sad, sad, thing is, if i do manage to recovery fully it’ll be underminded by the likes of Oscar simply because i partook in these debates. Pathetic. I could easily remain untreated and static like some of you guys who have “given up” on trying to help their damaged endoctrine systems, too. If i recover it’ll be because i’ll be trying highly specific and highly monitored treatment that pertains to my bloods. I’ll be monitoring my bloods weekly from next week on progressive doses of arimidex for instance. This drug has helped people before. It goes without saying i’d consider myself hugely lucky that i was able to manage such a recovery and that i realise that I was one of the lucky ones and that other guys are much more difficult to treat / have more permanent problems. I KNOW this. I’m not deluded. I’ve met with a guy on this forum (who doesn’t even post really) who has one of the worst cases of PFS on this whole board and i’m under no illusions how fucked up this is. But, even he is getting some relief from using TRT and Nolvadex. As i said, he doesn’t even particpate on this forum or post his bloods (which ive seen) and i doubt he’d even be on posting about his recovery either. It works both ways.
So on that note, It just isn’t human mentality for more people to sit on the forums and post about how great they’re feeling now. Instead, people that need something are the people who will populate this forum more. I’m not implying this is less serious than you suggest (im not), or that there are various phantom recoveries out there, im just saying that such a help forum is obviously going to be conducive to the people in the worst positions. As Dr Irwig said “inherent bias”. I think there’s definately “inherent bias” here in the sense that there is much more good stories out there than you would think by browsing this “help” forum. If only the Doctor’s like Dr C, Shippen and Jacobs could be authorised to publish all their files, i guarantee it’d open alot of our minds and make us see that a forum such as this is always going to be limited. Its inherent in its nature.
So please Mew, why give Oscar, the angry little man, amunition? You’ll note that i haven’t disagreed with you once. This shit needs intensive research from the top-line guys. The fact that my penis has been physically effected alone (which most doctors have trouble getting their head around or even believing!!) proves that there is something sinister here, i can only imagine what dustasteride would do to my body.
All that said i stand by my insistence on the need for every PFS sufferer to work diligently to perfect their endoctrine system where there has been clear disruption. It’s an imperative starting point and have absolutely nothing exclusive to do with the bigger picture of PFS…
Here’s a quote from Boston from information he got from them from speaking personally to them as a patient…
Now, perhaps those figures are grossly exaggerated or completely wrong but you can’t deny that everyone should try find something that works for them even if it only helps their daily lives until a better recovery method (in events of partial recovery) is realised. Why is there a divide in ethos here? New sufferers deserve to be encouraged to seek this, not told they’re fucked when in many cases, they really aren’t.
You mean theories in the THEORIES section?
You’re entitled to your opinion but you are massively limited by your own ignorance in all of this.
You what?
I LISTEN to what they say and ask them their opinions on certain matters. I’m pretty sure my conversation would be much more appreciated and open minded than yours, or do you think most of these guys would prefer to discuss your detailed (but almost certainly insanely incorrect, theory?)
My questions are always open to debate and hit the core issues. Do you really think i would waste an hour with a top endo in male hormone to discuss pregnenelone cream?
No…here is what I tend to address:
Example: “Dr Jacobs et al have mentioned that there is scope to believe that partial AR may have manifested itself in certain PFS sufferers, what would you opinion/experience be on this?”
Exampel 2: “What would you opinion be on the apparent trend of low levels of FSH in PFS sufferers like myself? Is there another mechanism that may be suppressing these levels as many sufferers appear less responsive to SERM’s than the normal person?”
Example 3: “In your opinion, is DHT/Testosterone Metabolism an issue here?”
Example 4: “What do you think of the pregenenelone and cortisol trend among several anti-aging doctors in Amercia who swear by it for adrendal optimisation?”
…If you think I’m a complete dumbass that’s fine but I’m pretty sure these are all important questions that we all want addressed.
Probably MUCH healthier to yours in almost every aspect. That’s what i deduce anyhow. Going by your online demeanour it definately would appear that you were always a dick.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4784&p=34679#p34679
Wow! Your “continued fight against aggressive hairloss”? I have destroyed my life, destroyed my health, for want of a slightly different haircut. Im not sure what symptoms you claim to have, but if you still care about hairloss then its little wonder you are treated like a fool.
I think you need to take a step back. You now have an entire thread dedicated to your ignorance. Noone has ever had that before.
I wont bother arguing this point anymore because you dont listen. But if you continue, I would like to see your account suspended.
Stop playing the “im the bigger victim” game. You are part of the 10% of posters that it has actually “destroyed” their health. I’ve got sexual problems but i still live try live a normal life. Sorry if I haven’t curled up in a ball of anger like you
So yes, i do continue my fight against hairloss (dare i say rather poorly though considering i cant use any anti-androgen for fear of side effects), it’s less important to me than my sexual health but just because i have had sexual complications doesn’t mean I don’t take pride in my appearance and atleast try (safely) to help fight my aggressive MPB. Why shoul d i say “fuck it” to my hair because i have experienced sexual problems, again?
You seem bitter against a fellow sufferer because i still have the “luxury” of caring about this. I think that’s eternally sad.
You mean its been received well from others apart from you. Get over it.
Listen to what? I respond to everything you say but you never actually say anything of substance. All you do do is rant about why Chillin’s theory (a fucking cream) is the devil. You’d think the theory was to run a course of dustasteride or something the way you go on.
Suspend my account for what? You’re probably the most aggressive poster on here and put a few people of posting (ive been told this) whereas I encourage people to have their hormones checked and for them to go to the top doctors like Dr Crisler for full profiles. I think it’s you that needs to “step back”. I’m moving forward, you’re not.
Can you dicks do this via pm or something. Do you think people reserching or trying to find out info want to see this.