…and some have no prob on it?
I posted this elsewhere as part of an answer/my opinion in another thread.
The degree of problems/symptoms found between individuals vary greatly based upon the extent of the problem incurred and the form of the problem incurred. As we have seen finasteride causes a multitude of differing endocrine problems. Even just considering the sex hormonal effects that are proven we have seen men with;
Elevated SHBG and low free testosterone levels, men with acceptable levels of SHBG but low LH and low total and free testosterone levels, men with elevated estradiol levels etc.
A wide variety of adverse effects then.
The dose and duration of use of finasteride is almost certainly a factor and it is probable that many people are to differing degrees predisposed to a variety of problems.
Some people are probably predisposed to adverse effects via boarderline hormonal status be that via the sex hormones or potentially other hormonal effects, some people may have had little predisposition but took sufficient doses of finasteride to cause adverse effects. Others could potentially have a predisposition to or undiagnosed poor liver function. Some people have suggested or theorized about other potential effects or predispositions.
As you can see that isn’t an acceptable answer, it is just the best one that I can offer and I think this is something that Dr Shippen, Dr Crisler and other doctors treating these conditions are also somewhat flummoxed by. Of course they may be able to supply a better and more detailed answer that can be evidenced; you would have to ask them.
I think the plain fact of the matter is that no product containing finasteride should have been licensed for anything other than the most serious of conditions, that finasteride is a poison to the endocrine system at the least and that it simply should not be licensed in the manner that it is.
It might seem strange that a drug can cause such wide ranging side-effects and problems. But one look at the side-effects found on any medication does give you an idea of the wide variety of differing physiological response that different people have with even the most mild and safe medications
P.S
At a high enough dose I think you WILL find that everyone is adversely affected, something I think has been shown in the use of finasteride at higher levels to treat prostate cancer .
Nobody really knows why (unless the scientific/medical community would take the time to investigate this further), that’s why we only have theories at this point.
Dr Shippen believes some men may have a genetic predisposition to the drug’s effects, as noted here (note this is 2nd hand info from a member who saw Shippen for treatment): propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … 12f483960a
Another theory is that the drug caused a genetic mutation in the 5AR enzyme/androgen receptor, as noted as possible here: propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … 12f483960a
Or… perhaps because the drug is a 4-azasteroid (a testosterone analogue), for some of us it had the same effect as taking “steroids” (like bodybuilders, except WITHOUT cyclying) and our HTPAs got shutdown in a similar manner as theirs. Coupled with the above possible genetic predisposition to the drug’s effects/possiblity of gene mutations, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone eventually discovers this goes beyond simply restoring hormone balance and gets down to the genetic, cellular, stem cell level.
Those are some of my thoughts, anyway.
Well this kind of thinking is not what u/we need, u need to be thinking that its down to not eating enough sallad or whatever else u can have an impact on instead of imprisoning yrself with such negative thoughts. Im not saying that what u describe could never happen but im atleast 1 guy who feels like total crap most of the time energy and libido wise but i felt fine with trt, i know u know this so wont bore u with the reversal of symptoms but that definetly show that some1 who feels the same way u do and has the same cause as u do can feel just fine once hormones are somewhat balanced.
Happy Thoughts!
They aren’t negative thoughts, I’m simply trying to throw out ideas as to HOW this could have happened, since some guys have tried TRT, clomid etc and not felt any different. And of course, don’t discount the Prostate with regards to sexual sides (aside from libido), since it is the primary target of action by Finasteride.
Likely only Merck knows the answer to our questions and even then, maybe even they don’t. We’ll never know unless there’s a class action lawsuit and they are forced to reveal everything about the drug’s method of action, OR scientists investigate on our behalf.
Again, I’m not being negative – I’m just answering the original poster’s questions – how and why could this have happened to certain men and not others… and what I said was simply my own personal thoughts on the matter, worse-case scenario and all.
Of course we need to stay positive! The fact that Shippen has had success in helping a number of men recover gives us all hope that they are getting closer to figuring this out. And beyond that I can say that things do improve as time goes on. I am much better mentally and sexually 20 months off the drug compared to when I first quit.
I sort of posted about this once before (“The finasteride-grapefruit juice interaction”), but I believe it’s worth mentioning again.
Consider the fact that CYP3A4 enzymes are responsible for metabolizing finasteride…
connection.lww.com/products/foye … eRA-06.asp
“Whereas no clinically significant drug interactions have been reported, CYP3A4 inhibitors appear to have the potential for affecting the activity of finasteride.”
I listed grapefruit juice as one known inhibitor of said isozymes…
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer … t=Abstract
Grapefruit juice contains potent CYP3A4 inhibitors, which would act to prevent circulating finasteride from being metabolized…
But the list does not end there…
cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16150801
“Resveratrol, a polyphenol found in red wine, was recently suggested to act as an irreversible, mechanism-based inactivator of cytochrome P450 3A4 (CYP3A4).”
“Resveratrol, piceid, resveratroloside, 4’-dihydroxy-3-O-methoxystilbene, and 5,3-dihydroxy-4’-O-methoxystilbene were all shown to inhibit hydroxylation of testosterone by CYP3A4.”
Resveratrol’s inhibition is “irreversible,” meaning it inactivates the enzyme permanently.
I would be very curious to hear the story of a finasteride user who was also a heavy, long-term grapefruit juice and/or red wine drinker…
In addition, it appears that the wikipedia entry for CYP3A4 contains a comprehensive list of inhibitors: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP3A4
Hmm, also interesting is the list of inducers…
For example, apparently if you take finasteride with St. John’s Wort, you’ll increase CYP3A4 transcription, and thus increase finasteride metabolism (decrease the half-life?).
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wow alot of info, the reason i was asking is because I wanted to know how I would know whther I would have sides or not. I have been taking the drug for a year with no noticeable problems but I am quitting now because of all the horror stories. But I just wanted some info, I think in the end the best decision is stop messing with my hormones. I have been weening myself off the drug. Should be propecia free in a couple weeks.
I’m actually in pretty much the same boat. I took it for about 2 and a half, without any clear sides. I experienced some testicle pain while on it, and toward the end I believe brain fog may have been an issue. I was definitely experiencing symptoms of depression. Whether that was (and still is?) associated with the drug, however, I can’t be certain.
However, I am curious as well about possible long-term effects, perhaps subtle, related to hormone imbalance. I’m mainly concerned about the imbalances caused by finasteride resulting in long-term upregulation/downregulation of sex hormones and neurosteroids. I am currently awaiting the results of a blood test to see how testosterone, estrogen, DHT, SHBG, etc, stack up. I spent hundreds of dollars on this junk, might as well spend a little more to see if I readjusted properly.
Thats the thing, while I may have experienced no sides (that I noticed but who knows) I am a little concerned about the long term effects of propecia. Although I think Ive done a good job weening off, Ive been taking .25 mg for about a month now, and now im just spacing out my doses between a couple days so I can get off this stuff.
Its better to stop now knowing what damage this stuff can do, rather than waiting for the damage to be done first. But damn my hair looks great lol.
Actually part of what I wrote is not theory at all but fact. Also we know that it does adversely affect the sex steroids differently in different people. We also know that people with boarderline deficiencies are more likely to be adversely affected and we also know that at high levels finasteride adversely affects everyone.
I agree that much is not known, particulary about the detailed mechanisms of action- but much of what I wrote is not theory- even if it doesn’t give us anything like an adequate answer.
finasteride is a known antiandrogen if nothing else.
How did you feel on TRT and why are you not on it now if it fixed you? Even when I was initially “horny” on TRT, there was still somthing missing. Like the numbness in my whole genital area was still there a great deal, yet I was horny…
How did you feel on TRT and why are you not on it now if it fixed you? Even when I was initially “horny” on TRT, there was still somthing missing. Like the numbness in my whole genital area was still there a great deal, yet I was horny…
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U have posted several posts on the Testogel thread started by me on this subject so i am abit confusded by this question. I started to develop gyno…
Thus im weaning off and will have another apointment with a new endo beginning july as i dident like my other docs attitude towards me regarding my concearns with gyno etc. My numbness was gone when i was horny and had prepropecia erections again . Are there more than 1 j89 or similar on this board?
cheers
No - thats my mistake. Im so many different boards accross the internet trying to figure this shit out that i get confused who is who somtimes. How was your libido?
If your getting gyno, hopefully it should be just a simple case of getting your E into the right zone. Good to hear its at least partly working for you, it gives me some hope and please keep us posted.
[quote=“J89”]
No - thats my mistake. Im so many different boards accross the internet trying to figure this shit out that i get confused who is who somtimes. How was your libido?
If your getting gyno, hopefully it should be just a simple case of getting your E into the right zone. Good to hear its at least partly working for you, it gives me some hope and please keep us posted.
[/quote
np just confused me too…
everything but gyno was really good on gel well also had sore prostate a few days. but saw palmetto took care of that. so to much e2 or dht, possibly a combination.
ill ofc keep u posted. have a doc appointment tonight… my 4th in 2 weeks.
so Im back to living my old life. Just that girls have been replaced with docs 
cheers
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