What are the primary similarities we've discovered about our cases?

General Discussion
#13

Have you seen any studies which indicate this about zinc defeciency and its effect on testosterone? I’m interested as I masturbated a LOT on my last round of fin, 4-5 times a day plus probably. I have wondered if this is what pushed me over the edge as I had full recoveries from the stuff when going off it at various times before, three times at least. Chronic masturbation certainly depeletes your system, although I’m not sure of direct hormonal effects. Certainly doing it while you have fin sides isn’t a good idea I think.

Going back to similarities, I had a high libido before fin. To be honest I think most guys do unless they are on SSRI’s or this shit. Low libido is very unusal among men, certainly young men, it’s a lot rarer than ED itself. On fin I probably went from 10/10 to an average of say 5, apart from an early burst of higher libido which probably made me think I wasn’t going to get sides. I wasn’t in a relationship when starting so didn’t notice, then loads of girls appeared and I was barely interested in fucking a lot of the time. Still watched porn though. I knew there was a problem but just never made the connection, my fin use was pretty naive, but I’m not alone there.

I also had an early puberty and had chest hair etc before many peers were even shaving. This even presents a problem with some doctors who think I can’t have low T because I’m ‘virilised’. However, some guys on here I’ve read are the opposite.

Basically I think anyone who gets sexual sides is prone to PFS, and going by actual studies that’s up to 38% of users. If it was purely genetics everyone would take fin and crash or have lingering sides the first time, but plenty guys here stopped and started without persistent problems. I think in my case the gaps were too short and didn’t allow my body to properly reset itself, could perhaps have had elevated E2 or cortisol which then unravelled everything the final time.

Perhaps an idea, maybe we all had higher DHT levels than normal? Or the T/DHT ratio was slightly more skewed? Then we were more susceptible to a DHT blocker causing more problems.

#14

Effects of dietary zinc depletion on seminal volume and zinc loss, serum testosterone concentrations, and sperm morphology in young men.
Hunt CD, Johnson PE, Herbel J, Mullen LK.

United States Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service, Grand Forks Human Nutrition Research Center, ND 58202.

Abstract
Identification of the andrological variables most sensitive to zinc depletion would expedite the diagnosis of male reproductive pathology induced by zinc deficiency. Eleven volunteers living on a metabolic ward were fed a diet composed of a mixture of a semisynthetic formula and conventional foods supplemented with ZnSO4 to supply a total of 1.4, 2.5, 3.4, 4.4, or 10.4 mg Zn/d. After an equilibration period of 28 d (10.4 mg Zn/d), all treatments were presented for 35 d each, the first four in random order and the fifth last. Compared with when they were consuming 10.4 mg Zn/d, volunteers consuming 1.4 mg Zn/d exhibited decreased semen volumes (3.30 vs 2.24 mL) and serum testosterone concentrations (26.9 vs 21.9 nmol/L), and no change in seminal zinc concentrations. Compared with 10.4 mg Zn/d, treatments of 1.4, 2.5, and 3.4 mg Zn/d decreased the total semen zinc loss per ejaculate (6.29 vs 3.81, 4.68, and 5.03 mumols/ejaculate). Seminal loss accounted for 9% of total body zinc loss when 1.4 mg Zn/d was consumed. Seminal phosphorus concentrations were elevated during all four phases of zinc depletion (28.4 vs 32.9, 31.0, 34.2, and 33.6 mmol/L). The findings suggest that serum testosterone concentrations, seminal volume, and total seminal zinc loss per ejaculate are sensitive to short-term zinc depletion in young men.

#15

nyer-

My total T went from about 389 a few months after cessation of Fin to nearly 700 a few months after that. That was before clomid or TRT. Even though my T had doubled I was still hypogonadal. I’m on TRT and HcG now. I’ve been injecting .5 to .75 cc about every 4 days for a few weeks now. My T should be off the charts by now and I’m still bloated, no energy, no strength, shrunken penis, etc.

#16

I wouldent be suprised if your cortisol levels are elevated. Id do serum and saliva testing if i were you.

#17

I think you’re probably right about that. I have trouble sleeping too. I ordered a full panel saliva the other day but they emailed me back and said they couldnt mail it to me in NY without a perscription.

#18

You really need to do a 24 hour cortisol test. Not being able to sleep is a thyroid/cortisol problem. It has nothing to do with low t. In my case its weird, because my thyroid hormones are screwed up, along with low cortisol, and yet I sleep like a baby. Usually 8 hours straight. The problem is waking up refreshed, and thats just doesnt happen for me.

Has anyone here ever tested their electrolytes? More importantly their sodium/potassium?

I think a lot of us are sodium deficient.

#19

I tested all electrolytes. They were normal. I do however benefit from sportsdrinks with electrolytes when i take them i feel better.

You cant say T has nothing to do with not beeing able to sleep. When i take T gel the first thing that happends is i get a tired alot earlier in the evenings and i sleep sooooooooooooo well. Its the main reason i take Tgel at times, cause it relaxes me. Possibly by lowering cortisol. Either way the change in sleep habits is very noticable and dont just get alittle better but the insomnia dissapears!

#20

But it has more to do with the fact that whoever is low on cortisol rather then T. being low on T is probably from insufficient cortisol/thyroid…

#21

but my initial response wasnt directed at you… idk if you have tested cortisol/thyroid… I know he hasnt, which is why my post was to him.

#22

Actually high cortisol decrease T and T lowers cortisol. Theres a better chance that high cortisol causes insomnia then low imo. Wich is probably why T helps me get to sleep. Alltho ive been toying with the idea that perhaps its elevated estrogen blocking my hyperthyriod when taking T but yeah thats abit of a stretch :slight_smile:

Ive tested cortisol both high and low and im more or less hyperthyriod if looking at free t3 t4 but my tsh is around 2 for the most. I awnsered cause i felt your claim that insomnia is not because of low T and that it is cortisol / thyriod related might be flawed. This atleast is disputed considering my experience.

#23

my cortisol, and my T (450-500) are both low, and I sleep just fine. No two ppl are alike in this mess. That’s the trouble with finding some common cure, because each individual hormone make up is different. I think partly because we are all not the same age, height weight, and do not live the same lifestyles as well.

#24

I dont think you are following or im not explaining this well…

Thats what im saying bad sleep / insomnia is more likely an effect of high cortisol! For me when i take Testosterone i feel like my cortisol is reduced and this makes me feel calm and relaxed and stop the insomnia / bad sleep.

Infact alot of illeffect like bloating moanface constricting blood vessels anxiety etc etc are alot more likely to stem from high cortisol and not low. Yet if one were to read this website one could easily get the impression that we get a procentage on hc sale the way we push high cortisol levels to be the norm.

Most health ppl and all the doctors ive spoke to would say that having high cortisol is a bad thing not the other way around. Yet we are determined to dispute this and claim that we have a cortisol insuffiency. Why? Sure if you are rock bottom in cortisol i could understand this reasoning but thats hardly the case for most here.

Dont get me wrong i still belive the main suspect here is adrenals but ill eat my hat if turns out that the reason we are feeling like we do are becuase of low cortisol. Infact ill gladly eat it cause this would easily be fixed.

#25

ive seen this trend among everyone who gets the tests…

too much reverse t3 in their body
too much estrogen
cortisol out of tune. ive seen many people with high cortisol… i’m personally waiting on my test result. i know JN was on HC so I’m assuming he had low cortisol, so an out of tune would be more appropiate.

me personally, i have high thyroid anti bodies and iron that is low as well.

#26

Low 3-Adiol-G
High Cortisol

Everything else with me is in range among that which has been tested. Test is consistantly over 800, DHT flucuates within the normal range. Estrogen is 32 (pretty good).

I have not gotten the 24/hr urine panel done yet and am still waiting on my reverse T3 results however.

I would guess that my 5a-THF/THF ratio is off.

Right now I would say the best marker for PFS would be the low 3-Adiol-G or 5a-THF/THF ratio.

#27

Agreed.

Low FSH is another one for the list.

#28

And what is not right is that most PFS docs are treating the condition by treating the symptoms, not the underlying cause.

Many of them seem to believe that PFS is a condition unique to each individual… while some of the side effects are in fact unique and blood tests do differ from person to person the fact remains that these appear only to be manifestations of the effects of PFS in different people.

Like treating my high cortisol… the high cortisol is most likely only caused by the immense stress that this condition has put in under and the fact that I am now living 2300 miles away from all my friends and family.

I have singled out and determined that every other hormone lvl in my body is relatively within range apart from my 3-Adiol-G and cortisol.

And low 3 adol G is a common denominator to almost everyone on this board apart from what? One person?

Mayo uses 3adiolg as a marker for peripheral tissue androgen metabolism by 5AR2, not AR insensitivity… which although I respect members with the opinion on this, AR insensitivity doesn’t make much sense… there are other reasons for muscle wastage and not many of us have this symptom. I am still 220 lbs 12% bodyfat… on the outside I look completely normal, on the inside I feel like my mind and emotions have been destroyed.

Just go to pubmed and look at all the studies linking 5AR2 to sexual behavior and defeminzation of the brains of developing male animals.

5AR2 metabolism is the problem here. We have DHT because of 5AR1 or perhaps deactivited DHT, but we are not getting the tissue metabolism that is required of 5AR2 for DHT to activate libido, sexual arousal, sleep (allopreg), and control brain fog.

Most of our proven evidence points to this. Why even focus on other ideas besides this and trying to figure what triggered it in us but not other men. Hyper sensitive immune systems, vunerable genetic dispositions, lack of DHT causes down regulation in 5AR2…

  1. We have evidence that points to 5AR2 issues.

  2. We only have theories about the other proposed causes, and dispite that some of these theories do fit, not all of them do in all cases and we have no actual evidence pointing to other causes.

#29

I have muscle wastage. I have lost muscle from all over my body, including my face (to the point my face feels numb) and the padding of my feet has also largely gone. Unless I have two different mystery illnesses running at the same time its all due to fin. Of course, we may be effected in a different way, but theres no point dismissing peoples symptoms that arent connected to 5aR (unless you can think of another reason why this should be happening).

#30

You are right, I shoudln’t dismiss it as not being 5AR related, it could be. Could be cause of 5AR affecting testosterone… or a number of reasons.

#31

High FSH in my case.

#32

Another similarity is that most people on the board are skinny or very skinny. No fat men around here (prior to fin), although out of thousands you would expect a few tens.
I am 5’9 (176 cm) and weigh 138 pounds (~62 kg).