We are Suffering the side effects of Androgen Deprevation - there is no mystery.

[Oscar]

[b]EDIT: I POSTED THIS THREAD INCORRECTLY ASSUMING ANDOGEN DEPREVATION THERAPY ONLY LASTED A FEW WEEKS - IT ACTUALLY CAN BE ADMINISTERED OVER A VERY PROTRACTED PERIOD OF TIME. IT WAS STUPID - I AM NO MEDICAL EXPERT, FAR FROM IT. THEREFORE THE CONCLUSIONS I REACHED ABOUT SIDE EFFECTS FROM ANDROGEN ABLATION ARE LIKELY TO BE WRONG. READ IT ANYWAY IF YOU LIKE. 01/11/2010

I do not believe that there is a mystery as to why we have developed the symptoms that we have. It is simply the side effects of androgen ablation, these side effects are well known and documented. There are links to academic papers on this website pointing to just those facts; [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1477613/[/url]

The side effects develop because of;
1. Use of the drug.
2. Endocrine crash after using the drug as t/dht lower in response to higher dht (has the same effect of starving the body of hormones).
3. Both of the above.

For whatever reason we are particularly delicate and suseptable to this occuring (i am sure our livers processing the drug slowly may have had an effect on some).

These side effects are well known to be [b]permanant[/b]. Particularly the sexual side effects. 
[url]https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/200808/200808kabir.pdf[/url]

These effects damage the whole body [b]sexually[/b] [b]physically[/b] [b]emotionally[/b] and mentally in other ways.

It is also very well known that TRT is no cure for these problems. A higher T level is not necessarily the same as a higher lobido. A higher T level is not necessarily a cure to ED.

See this thread; 
[url]http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3250[/url]
Mixed results with taking TRT, the effects that where not able to be eliviated in almost all cases where lobido & ed. 

I appreciate that Dr Jacobs has taken an interest in these problems but he did not consider that the effects of androgen ablation should be taken into account. We do not suffer from hypogonadism or androgen resistance or 5ar deficiency.

[b]We have suffered permanant brain damage and permanant damage to other dht dependent parts of our body ( penis! ).[/b]
Our focus should shift to cure this damage by discovering why this damage occurs and what has actually been damaged (particularly in the brain) so that a possible cure can be arrived at. 

But as I have stated this is not even done after the treatment of cancer and lobido is considered the MOST difficult thing to cure. This damage is in the brain is the root of our problems, but how to fix it? (those that suffer reduced cognition and attention as a result of cancer therapy are only offered support groups...). I think discussing the problem with a neurologist not an endocrinologist to discover what parts of the brain have been effected should be a good first step, which i intend to do (eventually.)

[boston332]

Taking 5 mg of Prosar daily is alot different from 1 mg Propecia though. My penis size has improved SOME since crash. Maybe 20% better. Others have improved more.

I have seen an Endo, Dr. Jacobs, and he is of the opinion that shrinkage is reversable.

[Y-C]

Well, thank you for those great news.

Too bad you forgot in your post to give us an address where we could buy bullets for loading our guns.

And how do you explain the few existing recoveries? Permanent body/brain damage, too?

[tim1911]

@boston332

Taking 5 mg of Prosar daily is alot different from 1 mg Propecia though.

That is questionable

[Mew]

Taking 5 mg of Prosar daily is alot different from 1 mg Propecia though.

No, it’s not. Drug has near flat dose response rate. Note graphs from FDA Propecia Clinical Trials showing 0.2mg inhibits nearly same DHT as 5mg.

physics.upenn.edu/facultyinf … peciafda2/

[Oscar]

@Mew

Quote:
Taking 5 mg of Prosar daily is alot different from 1 mg Propecia though.

No, it’s not. Drug has near flat dose response rate. Note graphs from FDA Propecia Clinical Trials showing 0.2mg inhibits nearly same DHT as 5mg.

physics.upenn.edu/facultyinf … peciafda2/

Taking 5 mg of Prosar daily is alot different from 1 mg Propecia though.

No, it’s not. Drug has near flat dose response rate. Note graphs from FDA Propecia Clinical Trials showing 0.2mg inhibits nearly same DHT as 5mg.

physics.upenn.edu/facultyinf … peciafda2/

Right!

@Y-C

And how do you explain the few existing recoveries? Permanent body/brain damage, too?

I think this fact only supports what im saying. Almost no one recovers. Look at Whalen72 and JN’s attempts they are more typical.

@Y-C

Too bad you forgot in your post to give us an address where we could buy bullets for loading our guns.

Sorry. I am suffering too. But we need to be realistic. Prehaps if we all look into this area someone will find some good information about restoring lobido etc.?

A glimmer of hope… I have recently been researching a possible ‘nuclear option’ as a possible cure. But I will discuss this with a professional, such as a neurologist first, as i am probably wrong and do not want to look foolish.

[tim1911]

@Mew

‘nuclear option’

Put all the fin guys in the same building and drop a bomb on it?

[troubledfinuser2]

Well i have gotten all my size back and my libido comes and goes. Sometimes its alot stronger than b4 propecia so this permenent ideas you got going are completely WRONG. I do however understand it might feel so when little or no recovery is made but its possibly and you should kling to that and not post these pessimistic threads as it will only do harm.

After going on TRT this summer i was completely recovered for a week or abit more than i got this horrible back pain when out riding and all started to go backwards pretty fast but i was feeling GOOD again and not only sexually so theres hope! Dont try and take that to, esp on false grounds!

[boston332]

I agree, it looks pretty damn hopeless from where I am. So, I understand the tenor of your post and I agree we probably are androgen insensitive. By the way, your right about 1mg being the same as 5 mg. I was mistaken.

Good for you troubledfin. Hope it all continues well for you. Im gettin “some” of my size back but it seems at this pace will be years for me.

[Drax]

Hi Troubledfinuser2, How many pills did you take?

[troubledfinuser2]

Hmm

First time i used propecia for a few months only with a day inbetween pills. Maybe total of 50pills max. Quit with no persistent side effects what so ever.

Then i think ( but i have to admit its so long ago now its getting cloudy) i took them for one more period of maybe 2 months again a couple of months later. Maybe another 30 pills. Quit with lingering side effects that went away after a few months.

Last time i took for 6 month (i think could have been longer) 1 pill every day so maybe 180 or more this time. Quit with sides and crash that persists untill now with some ups and downs including total health from time to time. This was years ago. I honestly dont know how many now. 5? ShiT

Totaling of around 250 pills or more i guess.

[Oscar]

I really think we should all get tests done to determine what parts of our brain have been damaged. For example a Neurologist can carry out many tests to determine where in the brain there is an abnormaility. These include;

Functional MRI or functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMRI

Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), or nuclear magnetic resonance imaging (NMRI), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRI

Computed tomography (CT) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computed_axial_tomography

… even Electroencephalography (EEG) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography and Magnetoencephalography (MEG) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-encephalography and Cambridge Neuropsychological Test Automated Battery (CANTAB) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Neuropsychological_Test_Automated_Battery

As I mentioned at the start of this thread I beleive we are suffering the side effects of androgen ablation not mystery syndrome X. We may appear to be androgen resistant but only because the parts of our bodies that are supposed to respond to androgens have been destroyed, especially in the brain.

As we suffer similar symptoms prehaps the same parts of our brain have been effected. If we all do these tests we should produce results. With a diagnosis we can then work towards a cure.

But what part of our brain could have been effected?

Prehaps some part of the limbic system? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system Some interesting info:

Anatomy
The limbic system is the set of brain structures that forms the inner border of the cortex. In an abstract topological sense, each cortical hemisphere can be thought of as a sphere of gray matter, with a hole punched through it in the area where nerve fibers connect it to the subcortical structures of the basal forebrain. The hole is surrounded by a ring of cortical and noncortical areas that combine to make up the limbic system. The cortical components generally have fewer layers than the classical 6-layered neocortex, and are often classified as allocortex or archicortex.

The limbic system includes many structures in the cerebral pre-cortex and sub-cortex of the brain. The term has been used within psychiatry and neurology, although its exact role and definition have been revised considerably since the term was introduced.[3] The following structures are, or have been considered to be, part of the limbic system:

Amygdala:[4][5][6] Involved in signaling the cortex of motivationally significant stimuli such as those related to reward and fear in addition to social functions such as mating.
Hippocampus:[4][5][6] Required for the formation of long-term memories and implicated in maintenance of cognitive maps for navigation.
Parahippocampal gyrus:[5] Plays a role in the formation of spatial memory
Cingulate gyrus:[4][5][6] Autonomic functions regulating heart rate, blood pressure and cognitive and attentional processing
Fornix:[4][6] carries signals from the hippocampus to the mammillary bodies and septal nuclei.
Hypothalamus:[4][6] Regulates the autonomic nervous system via hormone production and release. Affects and regulates blood pressure, heart rate, hunger, thirst, sexual arousal, and the sleep/wake cycle
Thalamus:[4][6] The “relay station” to the cerebral cortex.
In addition, these structures are sometimes also considered to be part of the limbic system:

Mammillary body:[4] Important for the formation of memory
Pituitary gland:[4] secretes hormones regulating homeostasis
Dentate gyrus:[5] thought to contribute to new memories and to regulate happiness.
Entorhinal cortex: Important memory and associative components.
Piriform cortex:[6] The function of which relates to the olfactory system.
Fornicate gyrus: Region encompassing the cingulate, hippocampus, and parahippocampal gyrus
Olfactory bulb: Olfactory sensory input
Nucleus accumbens: Involved in reward, pleasure, and addiction
Orbitofrontal cortex: Required for decision making.

Based on discoveries made through neural mapping of the limbic system, the neurobiological explanation of human emotion is that emotion is a pleasant or unpleasant mental state organized in the limbic system of the mammalian brain. If distinguished from reactive responses of reptiles, emotions would then be mammalian elaborations of general vertebrate arousal patterns, in which neurochemicals (for example, dopamine, noradrenaline, and serotonin) step-up or step-down the brain’s activity level, as visible in body movements, gestures, and postures.

For example, the emotion of love is proposed to be the expression of paleocircuits of the mammalian brain (specifically, modules of the cingulate gyrus) which facilitate the care, feeding, and grooming of offspring. Paleocircuits are neural platforms for bodily expression configured before the advent of cortical circuits for speech. They consist of pre-configured pathways or networks of nerve cells in the forebrain, brain stem and spinal cord.

The motor centers of reptiles react to sensory cues of vision, sound, touch, chemical, gravity, and motion with pre-set body movements and programmed postures. With the arrival of night-active mammals, smell replaced vision as the dominant sense, and a different way of responding arose from the olfactory sense, which is proposed to have developed into mammalian emotion and emotional memory. The mammalian brain invested heavily in olfaction to succeed at night as reptiles slept—one explanation for why olfactory lobes in mammalian brains are proportionally larger than in the reptiles. These odor pathways gradually formed the neural blueprint for what was later to become our limbic brain.

Emotions are thought to be related to activity in brain areas that direct our attention, motivate our behavior, and determine the significance of what is going on around us. Pioneering work by Broca (1878), Papez (1937), and MacLean (1952) suggested that emotion is related to a group of structures in the center of the brain called the limbic system, which includes the hypothalamus, cingulate cortex, hippocampi, and other structures. More recent research has shown that some of these limbic structures are not as directly related to emotion as others are, while some non-limbic structures have been found to be of greater emotional relevance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion#Neurobiological_theories

[Size=4]The limbic system is also tightly connected to the prefrontal cortex. To cure severe emotional disorders, this connection was sometimes surgically severed, a procedure of psychosurgery, called a prefrontal lobotomy Patients who underwent this procedure often became passive and lacked all motivation[/size].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system#Function

[spstriken]

@Oscar

We have suffered permanant brain damage and permanant damage to other dht dependent parts of our body ( penis! ).
Our focus should shift to cure this damage by discovering why this damage occurs and what has actually been damaged (particularly in the brain) so that a possible cure can be arrived at.

But as I have stated this is not even done after the treatment of cancer and lobido is considered the MOST difficult thing to cure. This damage is in the brain is the root of our problems, but how to fix it? (those that suffer reduced cognition and attention as a result of cancer therapy are only offered support groups…). I think discussing the problem with a neurologist not an endocrinologist to discover what parts of the brain have been effected should be a good first step, which i intend to do (eventually.)

yes that part of the brain is hypothalamus. TRT can be good for primary hypogonadal people whose other hormones are fine and h and p are working fine. why don’t you look at MSH deficiency

prohealth.com/me-cfs/blog/bo … id=1130494

especially look at

Q: What does MSH do?

A: MSH sits as the central hub of a series of important effects. MSH controls hypothalamic production of melatonin and endorphins. Without MSH, deficiency creates chronic non-restful sleep and chronic increased perception of pain, respectively. MSH deficiency causes chronic fatigue and chronic pain. MSH also controls many protective effects in the skin, gut and mucus membranes of the nose and lung. It also controls the peripheral release of cytokines; when there isn’t enough MSH, the peripheral inflammatory effects are multiplied. MSH also controls pituitary function, with 60% of MSH deficient patients not having enough antidiuretic hormone. These patients will be thirsty all the time, urinate frequently and often will have unusual sensitivity to static electrical shocks. 40% of MSH deficient patients won’t regulate male hormone production and another 40% won’t regulate pro- per control of ACTH and cortisol.

Q: OK, if something is going on in the body that causes inflammation, like exposure to toxins made by mold in Sick Building Syndrome, and the immune system is cranking out these proteins, cytokines, that are great for our health when they are released in the right amount at the right time, but harmful when too many are made at the wrong time, why don’t we just fix the cytokine response and watch MSH get going again?

A: Good question. We are looking at an incredibly small area in the hypothalamus, one in which there is a real risk of permanent damage from cytokines to blood flow to this pathway. And who is to say that the vital receptors aren’t destroyed by too much attack for too long? Once MSH production is damaged too much, it is too late.

and finally

A: Right. These patients are miserable. They live, but there is no life. They are given Oxycontin or Neurontin or Elavil or Xanax, for example, but nothing really helps. Families are destroyed, careers are ruined, financial resources are poured into tests that mean nothing and therapies that hopefully won’t cause harm, because they never help. Even worse, because MSH levels are rarely measured, many doctors look at the MSH deficient patients as if they are making up the illness, making up the pain to get drugs or looking for disability. And lots of them end up on disability, costing our society not just the unnecessary expense but also costing us the lost productivity.

[sanfran55]

If it was Androgen deprivation then why do many of us carry on balding? why do our fitness levels stay fine, and even strength levels? what about body hair?

Surely if it was androgen deprivation, these thing’s wouldn’t happen.

[tim1911]

@JOE-91

If it was Androgen deprivation then why do many of us carry on balding? why do our fitness levels stay fine, and even strength levels? what about body hair?

Surely if it was androgen deprivation, these thing’s wouldn’t happen.

Why do guys who use it for 3 days get screwed over and guys who use for 3 years come away squeaky clean?..Don’t worry joe its not this and there is mystery.

[Oscar]

@JOE-91

Surely if it was androgen deprivation, these thing’s wouldn’t happen.

Thats EXACTLY what would happen. You have proved my point.

I think it is unfortunate that this theory has only been put forward by me and only many years after the forum began.
The adverse effects of androgen deprivation are already known to the medical community.

[Oscar]

About my above post…

There is a mystery. And that is why some men dont lose hair and some men have a constantly poor fitness and muscle tone even long after stopping (prehaps thats what you meant). Other mysteries include the low levels of 3adiolG, Vit D and possibly Vit B12 too.

Apoptosis is the most simple cause of the majority of symptoms (ED etc.). Prehaps those with more extensive and mysterious symptoms have a mixture of apoptosis and epigenetic changes.

[m_81]

Your link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1477613/ says that these “Androgen deprivation” side effects go away with discontinuation of therapy (do a search for “discontinuation”). In our case, however, the side effects are present (sometimes they are worse) after discontinuation, and, furthermore, with a very good hormonal profile.

If you say that this is a well known problem, could you please find an article that talks about how these side effects persist after the hormonal therapy is discontinued?

[tim1911]

Oscar, if you look hard enough you may find we are deficient in almost all vitamins if not all, and have crazy mineral balances.
People have brief recoveries where they are 100% back to there old self, myself included…off zinc.
There are big holes in this theory and you know it.

Btw if you want your hair to fall out again take a high dose of vitamin e (1500iu p/d).

And lobotomy, perminant brain damage symptoms…gimmie a break
Symptoms are closer to anorexia… nutritional deficiencies, rapid weight loss, cfs, brain fog, poor sexual function, depression and passiveness, lowerd core temp. and just like the lobotomy surgery that atleast i know i havent had i dont think anyone is sticking fingers down their throats, thats how dumb that sounds.

Also the sky is falling, do us all a favour and take the blinkers off oscar

[Oscar]

@m_81

If you say that this is a well known problem, could you please find an article that talks about how these side effects persist after the hormonal therapy is discontinued?

GOOGLE SEARCH - “androgen deprivation therapy side effects”

First Result. supportiveoncology.net/journal/articles/0402097.pdf

Androgen deprivation therapy (ADT) for prostate cancer treatment can significantly impact the “male body and mind.” Patients should be monitored for side effects, understand what to expect, and be proactive in ways that minimize side effects and help them maintain a sense of control over their lives

Second Result. indianjurol.com/article.asp?issn=0970-1591;year=2009;volume=25;issue=2;spage=169;epage=176;aulast=Bagrodia

cognitive and sexual dysfunction, hot flashes, endocrine abnormalities, cardiovascular disease, and alterations in skeletal and body composition are commonly reported throughout the literature

Third Result. uptodate.com/patients/content/topic.do?topicKey=~iiQli0uxt94zf6D

for men undergoing ADT for advanced prostate cancer, other endpoints, such as loss of libido, erectile dysfunction, and other treatment-related side effects that can influence quality of life (eg, hot flashes, fatigue, loss of muscle and bone mass), are increasingly recognized as important

Fourth Result. (not particularly relevant? ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2213888/ )

Fifth Result. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12667885

Sexual side effects are the most well-recognized adverse effects from ADT and include loss of libido, erectile dysfunction (ED), and hot flashes. Loss of libido is distressing to many men

Sixth Result. drprem.com.au/downloads/ADT.pdf

Androgen deprivation therapy (ADT) as a modality
of treatment is being increasingly used much earlier and for a longer
period of time. Its various regimens all have side effects which
influence the patient’s health and quality of life.

Seventh Result. sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060226114317.htm

Side effects can be significant and include erectile dysfunction, hot flashes, fatigue, osteoporosis, high cholesterol, anemia, forgetfulness and insomnia.

Eighth Result. (little info… psa-rising.com/mednews/adt/79-androgen-deprivation-syndrome.html )

Ninth Result. ehow.com/about_5636936_side-effects-androgen-deprivation-therapy.html

Decreased mental alertness and depression are fairly common side effects of androgen deprivation therapy. Antidepressant drugs may be prescribed if depression is severe or interferes with daily activities.

Etc. Etc. Etc…