Variability and ping protocol (VAPP) may be the cure


Hey guys, I am a longtime lurker here but I just recently decided to finally join propeciahelp because I wanted to share this protocol with you all that has been working really great for me. I am not cured yet, but I appear to be reaching that point. Originally I was going to wait until I was completely cured, but I wanted to go ahead and release this protocol so that others can experiment with it as well.

Due to a recent chain of events and experimentation with a few things, I have stumbled across a new protocol that might be the cure for PFS. (as well as accutane side effects) Basically what my protocol involves is the strategic use of zinc, time, and the body’s own homeostasis mechanisms to recover. What caused me to discover this new protocol was that I was recently experimenting with large doses of creatine (1 heaping tablespoon per day) and it gave me negative effects within only 15-20 minutes of taking it. (general feeling of being disconnected, slight discomfort, shrinkage and no morning wood) After experimenting with it for a few days and seeing that it was completely counter-productive, it occurred to me that maybe I could use zinc (a known 5AR inhibitor) to possibly reverse the temporary side effects brought on by creatine. (a known 5AR/DHT increaser) So, I took 200 mg of zinc and literally within 15-20 minutes (a surprisingly fast amount of time), all the side effects of creatine had subsided and my entire body was filled with a very warm, connected feeling. Additionally the shrinkage caused by creatine reversed and I woke up with good morning wood the next day. It was this event that caused me to realize the potential utility of zinc. Not just as a mineral supplement, but rather as a means to reliably influence the hormones. So after this discovery, through a few weeks of trial and error, as well as lots of theoretical conjecture, I came up with this new protocol. First of all though, I want to run through a few theories that VAPP is based on:

In my opinion there are actually two types of PFS:

PFS type 1: 5AR/DHT levels are impaired but androgen receptors are still somewhat functional. (They are still abnormal though) People with PFS type 1 respond best to things like creatine, sorghum, weightlifting, etc. Basically anything that boosts 5AR/DHT.

PFS type 2: 5AR/DHT levels are too high relative to the sensitivity levels of the androgen receptors. People with PFS type 2 respond best to things that lower 5AR/DHT levels, such as zinc, marijuana or even things like saw palmetto and microdoses of propecia. (wouldnt recommend the last one though)

On this topic, whether you are PFS type 1 or 2 is not fixed necessarily. By that I mean that if you are PFS type 2 but overuse zinc, marijuana, saw palmetto etc then you can lower your 5AR/DHT levels too much which can cause a crash and make you become PFS type 1. Likewise, if you are PFS type 1 but overuse creatine, sorghum, tribulus etc then it will make you crash and you will become PFS type 2.

So with me, I strongly believe that I had PFS type 2. This is because I responded so poorly to creatine (and really anything else that boosts 5AR/DHT) but responded fairly well to zinc. Also what I deduced from my experience is that when it comes to PFS type 2, it is true that your 5AR/DHT levels are too high. What is also true is that for your androgen receptors, they have a set range of DHT levels that they are sensitive to. If your DHT levels are over or below this range then you will not be able to utilize DHT properly. For people with PFS type 2, they simply have too much DHT relative to the sensitivity range for their androgen receptors, thus their bodies cant properly respond to the DHT. So for me, I had initially boosted my DHT levels too high by using creatine and it made my DHT levels out of the sensitivity range of my androgen receptors. Thus giving me side effects. However by taking zinc, it had a speedy effect in reducing my DHT levels to within the sensitivity range of my androgen receptors. This in term reversed the side effects brought on by creatine, as well as giving me very strong morning wood the next day. I want to add that from my subsequent experiments with zinc I have noticed that if I take too much then my morning wood also goes away. In my opinion this is further evidence for the theory that there is an optimal DHT range for the androgen receptors. It is not simply the case that those with PFS have completely inactive/desensitized androgen receptors.

At this point, through a lot of experimentation with zinc and keeping the above point in mind, I begin toying with the idea of using zinc to properly modulate my 5AR/DHT levels in sync with my body’s own natural homeostatic cycles in order to better align my DHT levels with the sensitivity range of my androgen receptors. So in order to achieve this, I began supplementing with 100 mg of zinc every other day. I would do this until my morning wood would begin to get weak or even go away. At this point I would stop taking zinc for 2-3 days and then after 2-3 days was up then I would start taking zinc again. The reason for taking zinc every other day was to hopefully keep my DHT levels within a certain range, and not have them go too far up or down. However by utilizing this alternate day zinc protocol it actually lead me to discover another interesting phenomena which I will explain more in depth in the paragraph below:

I’ll start out my explanation with an example. So if you take zinc, its going to temporarily depress your 5AR/DHT levels, however as the effect of the zinc begins to wear off, your body will naturally begin to regenerate its 5AR/DHT in order to restore homeostasis. Likewise, if you take creatine its going to temporarily spike your 5AR/DHT levels but afterwards your body will naturally bring your 5AR/DHT levels back down. That being said, it is through the process of the body attempting to return to its baselines that you can “hack” the body and change the baselines. For lack of a better term, I will refer to this mechanism as “variability”. It is through consistently varying the levels of certain hormones and then allowing them to briefly recover that you can change your baselines. That being said though, when attempting to utilize variability its very important that you allow the body to attempt to return to its baselines through its own natural mechanisms. If you try to artifically induce variability by using multiple contradicting supplements to manipulate hormone levels then you actually reduce the effectiveness of variability. Thus you should not mix and match your supplements. IE use zinc and creatine at the same time. The same goes for concurrently taking zinc and lifting weights. I’ll elaborate more on this later though. The important thing is to just manually adjust the levels of a certain hormone and then to let the body handle the rest. (IE Only take a given supplement every other day. The mistake that we have been making up until now is that we were so eager to recover that we were taking supplements on a daily basis because we thought it would be more beneficial when actually it appears that it is more beneficial to take supplements every other day.) Anyways, it is through variability that I feel like you can actually set an optimal baseline for your hormones.

That being said, I will now elaborate on the androgen receptor sensitivity concept that I was referring to earlier. Ok, so imagine that you have an arbitrary DHT scale that goes between 0 and 1000 units. Meanwhile, the androgen receptor sensitivity range (ARSR) is lets say somewhere between 400 and 800 units of DHT. In the ARSR, 400 and 800 units are the minimum and maximum thresholds, while 600 units is the optimal/normal point. Additionally lets say that for every 100 mg of zinc you take, it lowers your DHT units by 100, for every day that you don’t take zinc your DHT levels regenerate by 50 units and finally a heaping tablespoon of creatine raises your DHT by 100 units. So for me, lets assume that my baseline DHT is around 800 units. Its barely within range of the ARSR. When I was taking creatine for two days its bumped my DHT up to 1000 units, well out of range of the ARSR. Thus I began to experience negative effects from DHT since my body could no longer use it at that level. However once I took 200 mg of zinc it brought my DHT back down to 800 units which is the upper threshold of the ARSR and I started to get morning wood again. Well, once I came back into range of the ARSR I began taking 100 mg of zinc every other day. This in turn caused my DHT levels to zig zag up and down in a downwards directions towards the optimal/normal point as well as towards the minimum threshold. While this was happening, my morning wood was intensifying to a very noticeable degree. Much more than what is normal for supplementing zinc (on a daily basis) which i had done in the past. So theoretically speaking, by utilizing the supplementation of zinc in an alternating day scheme, I was able to simultaneously induce variability within the ARSR and eventually at some point I was able to repeatedly “ping” the optimal/normal point. However, since I wasn’t exactly aware of the mechanism behind what I was doing, I wasn’t able to precisely capitalize and optimize the pinging thus I would sometimes bring my DHT levels so low that they passed the minimum threshold and then I would stop getting morning wood. In my opinion, it is the part where I “pinged” the optimal/normal point which sent a signal to the body and let it know that this was the new DHT/Androgen receptor sensitivity ratio that should be used for homeostasis.

Thus as you can see, there are two concurrent factors working synergistically here. First of all you are using variability to normalize the body’s 5AR/DHT levels, and then you are using the pinging action to signal to the body the optimal DHT/androgen receptor sensitivity ratios. I want to add that the intersection of inducing variability within the androgen receptor sensitvity range is also probably extremely helpful as well.

(I also want to add that the math I used in my example is probably not a precise example of what is going on in the body, I just used all those numbers to give a clearer idea of how this mechanism works. So dont get too caught up in the numbers.)

At this point when I stop getting morning wood, I stop using zinc for a few days and then I start using zinc again after a few days had passed. Obviously what is going on in this stage of my experiment is that I was allowing my 5AR/DHT levels to regenerate back into range of the ARSR, so at this point I do another cycle of zinc and continue to do cycles like this until my body finally began to normalize.

So that is the basic rundown of the protocol. Now I want to cover a few other points:

-First of all, what I described above is the basic protocol that you should follow if you have PFS type 2. But what if you have PFS type 1? If you have PFS type 1, then the same protocol as PFS type 2 should work except instead of using 5AR/DHT inhibitors, you will be using 5AR/DHT boosters. So instead of zinc, lets say that you will be using creatine. So as with the previous zinc protocol, you will load X amount of creatine for a couple of days until you get morning wood; at this point you will supplement X amount of creatine every other day until you begin to get some negative side effects from creatine, at this point you will back off for a few days, and then you will start using creatine again after a few days have passed. You will keep doing this until you finally recover. I want to add that the protocol for PFS type 1 is theoretical in nature, I dont know if it will work or not but I believe it should. Even if it doesnt, its not a big deal because you can just overload on 5AR/DHT boosters and purposely make yourself crash so that you become PFS type 2, at which point you can then utilize the zinc protocol instead.

-As I already stated above, but needs definite re-emphasis is that while doing VAPP, you should only be using ONE supplement. The entire VAP protocol relies on listening to your body, and getting cues from it that let you know when you should continue or cease using X supplement. This is much much harder to do when you are constantly raising and lowering your 5AR/DHT levels by using various different supplements or even doing weightlifting. The VAP protocol alone is sufficient to cure you within a month or two; and the whole reason you might be taking different supplements/lifting weights in the first place is to cure/alleviate PFS symptoms. So it wouldn’t really make sense to delay your recovery by trying to rely on too many different things at once. Trust me on this one, while I was doing VAPP I quit using all other supplements and I also stopped lifting weights.

-I don’t think that diet, smoking cigarettes, or drinking alcohol really affects the effectiveness of VAPP. While I was doing VAPP I was eating whatever I wanted to, smoking cigarettes and drinking on the weekends. (like getting really drunk, but I do this every weekend anyways) When it comes to those three things, I think that the only one that you might want to watch out for is drinking alcohol since it does affect your hormone levels. HOWEVER, if you are only drinking large amounts of alcohol on the weekend then I think its effect is neglible. Heavily drinking during the rest of the week however would probably negatively impact the effectiveness of VAPP.

-VAPP could potentially cure all kinds of side effects induced by any pharmaceutical. Its a universal protocol that just involves using the correct supplement and manipulating the right hormone. Its super easy to do. I think anybody that has any lingering side effects from any pharmaceutical should definitely consider adapting VAPP to their own circumstances.

Here are the basic steps for the protocol summed up:

  1. First determine if you are PFS type 1 or PFS type 2

  2. If you are already getting morning wood then you can go ahead and start supplementing X supplement every other day. If you are not getting morning wood yet then I recommend that you “load” on X supplement on a daily basis until you begin to get morning wood. Once you begin to get morning wood, then you can start supplementing X supplement every other day.

  3. Take X supplement every other day until you stop getting morning wood. At this point stop taking X supplement and wait for 2-3 days so that your body can readjust. Whether or not morning wood reappears on its own appears to be contingent upon how severe your PFS is. Either way it doesn’t matter, after 2-3 days your hormone levels should have fallen back into the ARSR so you can begin taking X supplement again every other day in order to restart the cycle of variability and pinging.

  4. Repeat step 3 until you are cured.


Hi @skorpio88, do you have an update on this?


There’s 2 types of FPS???

Isn’t 1 type of FPS bad enoug already!


I wouldn’t read into this post too much myself mate it’s two years old and nobody had much interest at the time hence few replies also the original poster has recently put up a post saying that soy is the way to go now …
It’s up to you if you want to give it a shot but personally ive tried this myself in the past and it did nothing for me but again it may help some people.


the VAPP protocol was my initial experiment with using anti-androgens to treat PFS. At the time it was effective unlike anything I had tried before, hence my excitement regarding it, however it ultimately ended up being sort of a dead end. That being said, it wasnt a complete failure since the information and data that I gathered from the VAPP protocol eventually helped me to discover the usage of soy for treating PFS. I recommend looking looking into soy for treating PFS