So, fin blocks the conversion of T to DHT, so maybe TRT doesn’t work because our ability to convert T to DHT has been stunted by prolonged use of fin. Relatedly, has anyone tried to introduce prescription DHT into their system as opposed to T?
I would be curious to know if DHT levels rise when on TRT treatment, or whether they stay relatively the same for people like us.
Anyone have any info regarding this?
Good train of thought here. I’ve been wanting to ask also does anyone know what happens to our homones when Propecia works the way it is suppose to. I know it blocks 5Areductase, right? That in turn prevents the conversion of T into DHT. Initially T is suppose to rise increasing our virilaty. Then T is suppose to drop to normal again I believe. Does anyone know what else is SUPPOSE to happen? Any other hormones effected?I think we need to know this to understand the pathology.
Exactly… if fin was never intended to affect T in the first place, then why are we trying to address our problems by introducing more T? In other words, if fin indirectly reduced DHT by blocking 5AR, then how does fin lower T? Indeed, do the articles in the studies section not say that fin use caused major reductions in DHT, and only minor reductions in T, while castration caused major drops in both T and DHT? I’m just trying to understand the pathology here.
If you believe what you are saying to be true then why not see about getting Andractim DHT gel prescribed.
Like all wholesale approaches that do not answer specific problems caused it will fail with most people- but hey…
No, I don’t believe what I say to be true, but rather food for thought and a chance for me to better understand the physiology… I just wanted other people’s input on it because I don’t see how T replacement is supposed to address fin, which, in theory, affects DHT instead of T.
While on fin, out T levels will atually increase a bit. I think it was about 10-20%. There was a study about it I read some time ago, dont have a link though…
JH
Ok, but this really doesn’t address my question. And an increase in T while initially on fin makes sense - No T being converted to DHT = More T, right?
I don’t believe anything I’m saying is true because I don’t understand it yet. I need all you knowledgeable peoplle’s help. If fin raises T then wouldn’t we be less likely to get ED. Why is it one of the normal side effects. And if it’s suppose to go away- why and how. I’m just talking about when Propecia works normally. I need to understand what happens in the normal cases to figure out whats abnomal here.
DHT is 5 times more potent that testosterone, so 70% less DHT and 20% more testosterone equals less androgens in the body.
JH
Right, so shouldn’t we be focusing on DHT instead of T? Maybe our bodies can;t covert T into DHT anymore, hence why TRT isn’t helping… I mean, these are just questions I have… Hypo seems to believe that we should be focusing on T, not DHT, and because I value his opinions highly, I’d like to know why we should focus on T?
Ultimately, I think it’s important to get T and DHT tested before TRT, and then test T and DHT 1 month after TRT to see the level of DHT. Then tests again next month, and the month after that. If DHT remains constant, then we know that our symptoms are being caused by the inability to convert T to DHT. If, on the other hand our DHT is rising as a result of TRT, then we know that our bodies can convert T to DHT, and if we’re still experiencing symptoms, we can at least rule out the possibility that it’s not DHT
Yup yup, excacly. Im currently a week into TRT, and will do bloodtests with DHT in month or two, and I have baseline T and DHT to compare with.
I’ll report back, but Im pretty sure DHT will rise as T rises…
JH
I don’t have pre TRT (testim gel) DHT levels but after 10days of TRT gel my DHT rose thru the roof…860 (rr 100-560). my DHT now (no medications whatsover for over 3 months) is 65 (rr 25-80). so i definately know the effect of Fin preventing T to DHT is no more as my DHT rose thru the roof while on TRT.
I took Propecia daily for 7 years.
Rockin, did the TRT return your erections?
How about now since you stopped?
didn’t do shit for me other than make me feel bloated and overweight.
there’s a lot more to it than just doing TRT.
im not feeling better. i have gone thru periods of feeling great…and it was not while on TRT…so i know FOR ME it has nothing to do with supplementing T (as my T levels are mid range).
cool, hey sorry, i just pm’ed you.
Apart from the fact that this is completely contradicted by the fact that in most people DHT is ok post propecia use if testosterone is ok….Also that in fact DHT is more usually ok even when testosterone isn’t ok.
What is being said is actually being completely contradicted by the pathology/facts of most people.
I have never said that. I focus on what seems to be wrong. The fact is that rarely seems to be DHT, but if I see DHT out and then that would be my main focus.
Perfectly reasonable idea.
Rarely is DHT the factor, despite the fact that it is the principle hormone lowered by finasteride.
By the way the whole idea that finasteride increases testosterone is complete rubbish.
It might do that in the short term, but it certainly does not do that in the long term.
If anyone’s endocrinologist thinks that a lack of DHT is the issue and answer then please get them to email me and I will provide them with DHT Andractim gel.
I am not posting further in this thread.
Really , and you know this how ? I used Propecia from 1998-2000 when I started hearing bad stuff about Propecia. My hair loss had become about zero so between that and reading the horror stories I stopped for about a year and a half. After getting a second HT in 2002 I started again. Here are my T #'s
May 2000 T level 673 ng/dl ( a week after stopping Propecia)
Jan 2002 T level 581 ng/dl (about a 19 months off Propecia)
January 2007 T level 701 ng/dl (5 years back on Propecia)
So I guess my question is what do you consider long term ? Seems the longer I use Propecia the higher my T levels get.
Given the fact that short term use of finasteride results in awful effects that result in the durgs discontinuation;
I used the term- long term to define longer term levels post use.
Testosterone is VERY often VERY low post use and it is unhelpful irrespective of level when using finasteride given the level of DHT and adverse side effects.
But this does not mean that DHT is the long term problem, at least not often hence my post and point about being quite willing to provide DHT Andactim gel to any endocrinologist who thinks otherwise.
I have explained what may have been misunderstood.
I am not arguing anything any further on this website.
Jim given the fact that you personally use finasteride still, the fact that you have absolutely no respect whatsoever for people on TRT, no respect for those with ED, Gynecomastia etc- I don’t think you have any place on this site, but I am not arguing in any event.
The fact is I am close to leaving this site given the lack of support I have received, because despite huge effort I have had nothing but trouble.
Hypo don’t put words in my mouth !! What I have is no respect for you and everything I said was directed at you and you only. Don’t go grouping in guys with Ed, Gyno, etc. The fact is I get quite a few private messages looking for PCT advice. You would be surprised how many of them mention you in a negative light.
So now show me a study where the majority of men who use propecia have lower T. A simple link will be just fine to show everyone here you weren’t talking out of your ass, like usual.
People I’m here to tell you if Hypo leaves you will be losing a great asset to this forum. Jim I’m sure you know some stuff but I have not seen you go out of your way to really help us here. Just look at the blood level post and you will see who has gone out of their way to help. You have not been here for awhile. The first thing back and you are picking a fight with Hypo again. I’m not saying your points are’nt worth hearing, but you are very argumentative. And your wasting everyone’s precious time and energy. You will be long gone and Hypo will still be hear helping people. Just look at the last 2 weeks for example.