This guy's fatty liver story

General Discussion
#1

Is this one of you guys on the forum? He doesn’t mention side effects (libido, ED, weight gain,etc) but talks about fatty liver and related blood work. He has ALT numbers while on Finasteride and after discontinueing it…and the difference was huge!

Anyway, he did use 2.5 mg of Fin over the 1mg we’ve all been using…but goes to show Fin does impact the Liver (well for one guy at least). Once he reduced his 2.5mg fina to 1mg 2 weeks his ALT levels went from 200pts over the max to just 5 pts over. He was on Fina for 8 years.
Anyway, it does support that Fina can disrupt your liver function over time…

medhelp.org/forums/gastro/me … 38273.html

#2

If anyone also finds problems of this nature I would be very interested.

The liver is responsible for removing toxins from the body and a poorly functioning liver can result in a build-up of estrogens and estrogens act against the actions of androgens in the male.

The estrogenic affects of poor liver function are further highlighted by the fact that 8% of all gynecomastia sufferers (medically diagnosed) have underlying cirrhosis/liver disease.

Statistics taken from Glen D Braunstein’s 1993 white paper entitled gynecomastia and concurred with in Ismail and Barth biochemists 2002 white paper entitled endocrinology of gynecomastia.

Poor liver function can cause gynecomastia and be the cause of a poor androgen to estrogen ratio and symptoms of hypogoandism.

Dr Shippen details the importance of the livers p450 system in The Testosterone Revolution and states that alterations in liver function can cause metabolic hypogoandism.

I do not know of any legitimate link between Propecia and Proscar and adverse liver results but this could be interesting if remotely common.

1 Like
#3

Hypo:

FDA Human Liver Adverse Effects Database
fda.gov/cder/Offices/OPS_IO/ … tabase.htm
– Check Finasteride’s listing

U.S. FDA Adverse Drug Reactions to Finasteride (Excel file)
propeciahelp.com/forum/download.php?id=10
— search for “liver”

U.K. Adverse Drug Reactions to Finasteride (PDF)
propeciahelp.com/forum/download.php?id=11
— search for “liver”

Seems like a legitimate link to me.

#4

I’m not so sure about this information and what can be drawn from it.

I think that you would want to find white papers detailing liver complaints as a result of finasteride, far better still you would want white papers or case reports etc that detailed liver complaints specifically with propecia, proscar etc.

As you know there are a vast array of adverse effects experienced with all drugs. Take one look at the potential side effects in a leaflet that comes with aspirin to see what I mean.

I think we need a higher level of specificity that relates the problems to the dosages in the products we are referring to and we need at least reasonable associative evidence.

I really do think that the doses involved and therefore the products are important as opposed to just looking at finasteride- dosage can be everything.

Water is toxic at the right levels, alcohol does not inebriate at low levels. Of ocurse I have presented extremes just to make the point.

Perhaps you see something in those numbers and reports that I do not, maybe I have overlooked something; in which case I would genuinely appreciate it if you could point out what I might be missing and detail what it is you see from those specific reports?

Like I say it would be very interesting if this turned out to be a potential issue and I have an interest in this area.

#5

I think its more important to understand how prescription medicines/drugs can impact the liver over time…be it Finasteride or any other prescription med (blood pressure, SSRIs, cholesterol,etc).

I’m not sure you’ll find a solid link that says Finasteride causes liver damage…maybe you will. But again, it’s the liver not tolerating the Fina and not Fina damages liver.

As for myself…while I have normal/low T levels (550 rr 260-1100), and normal/low LH/FSH, and normal/great Estradiol (12 rr<54), my total Estrogens are over max 143 rr>130 (although no one seems to care about total Estrogens). My stomach is well extended over my belt line that makes me look 6mos pregnant while the rest of my body is toned.

Who knows…that’s probably my fault as I don’t get enough fiber and water in my diet…something that’s gonna change starting today.

#6

Damage is damage whether it is short term or long term, but I agree with what you are saying. Especially I think it is important to note the difference between finasteride in of itsef and the drugs containing it that we are concerned with- given what I have said regarding dosage.

Finding solid links is what matters and they must be links with propecia and proscar etc moreso than just finasteriude or they must at least relate to similar dosages of finasteride. In terms of saying it is not the finasteride damaging the liver but the liver not tolerating finasteride…you could say that about anything so that is just word play. You could say that the body doesn’t tolerate fire as opposed to fir damaging the body the same goes for radiation or chemotherapy or anything…

And your total estrogen level maybe an issue and you could very well have problems that are 100% down to propecia and its finasteride.

The difficulty is acsertaining what problesm it does cause. Satisfying ourselves with good quality evidence of the problems it causes and not spinning around chasing out own tails with conspiricy like theories of it causing everything from boils on the backside to bad weather.

It can be difficult, because it is easy to start accepting limited poor quality evidence or inappropriate information or thinking that finasteride in propecia causes all ills.

A good part of you post made sense to me…I guess i am overly analytical in nature and alwasy sound like I am offering a negative even when I see a faorly good post…

#7

my comment about liver not tolerating fina instead of fina damaging liver was to make the same point as you…that Fina isn’t the cause of everything. i’ve taken a lot of criticism from this board for pointing out that Fina didn’t cause world hunger.

yeah, liver damage is liver damage. u can have all the labs in the world that says ur liver enzymes are in range…but that doesn’t fully mean ur liver is working at full capacity or is as effective as once was. this fall in liver quality can be due to several factors…and fina could be one of them.

i took proecia for close to 8 years daily (1mg/day). i also drank heavily for 5 of those years. im sure my liver isn’t functioning to full capacity…though my labs suggest otherwise.

i’ve also had success with taking a multivitamin on 3 different occasions…ony the success is short lived each time (only 1 week or so). i’ve tried every vitamin by itself with exception of vitamin D…which is the last on. i took Selenium, chromium, B complex (B vit by themselves), A, C, E, and Alpha Lipoic Acid, zinc, magnesium, and calcium…i think that’s it. pretty pathetic i know…but experiencing the short bit of success after taking the supplement with success kept me chasing. i stopped taking it for 2 weeks and when I took it again i felt great for 2 days (no placebo…spontaneous erections, better food digestion, felt leaner, ejaculate had force).

long post…sorry.

#8

If that is a long post that needs apologizing for then I’m in deep trouble; It seems to me that you just articulated yourself fully and made some excellent points.

I can confirm that world hunger is not caused by finasteride lol

What you have said regarding the labs is very true.

Liver function tests are of very limited value in some cases. They only reveal liver dysfunction, they do not reveal lost function and there is a misunderstanding in how they should be used and they are often overly relied upon and not always diagnostically helpful.

The liver performs over five hundred differing functions and is second only to the brain in terms of its complexity and basic LFTs do little to confirm all is well.

People have died of liver failure when LFTs were looking good in the weeks prior to death, yet some things are picked up on LFTs quite rapidly that are fairly harmless.

Does any of what I am saying mean that finasteride or propecia causes liver problems or that there is any proven link between the two- no. I personally have not seen compelling evidence of this nature, of course that doesn’t mean it isn’t the case, it just means I can’t talk about it as a reality because I haven’t seen sufficient evidence.

One thing I would say is, if your liver is sluggish and not particularly good at doing its job and detoxifying the body of chemicals and hormones etc. Taking that many supplements can actually overload the liver and cause more problems than it solves. It is ironic but substances that are taken to supposedly detoxify the liver also have to be cleared by the liver and can cause a problem.

That might be something you want to think about if you do have a problem with your liver irrespective of the cause.

You might not be doing the best thing by taking so many supplements.

Like I said this is an area of interest of mine. Hypogonadism it’s diagnosis, causes, effects and treatment, it’s associated conditions such as gynecomastia and liver issues.

sorry for my long post :blush:

P.S

Your spot on in terms of what you have said about liver function and the labs.

#9

hypo…when i apologized for my long post it was because i was just rambling on about a vitamin theory i’ve had for a while now. your posts while long are very well thought out and delivered.

as for taking those supplements…im sure you are right. the vitamin itself had well over the DRV given by the govt…some vitamins were 1500% and 3000%. As for taking all the supplements…i didn’t take them all separately at the same time (meaning individual vitamins one by one in the same day). I tried them for a day or two (nothing longer as the well being i experienced was within a day of taking the multivit).

but it sort of makes sense that i stop for a while and than take it i feel great for a short bit…before my liver gets taxed at trying to clear a multivit that strong. i tried taking half the dose and that too didn’t last more than a week. i’ve always thought it was one particulare vitamin within the rest that body is positively reacting too…and then liver shuts down as it’s bogged by all the other stuff.

as for my own health…i cut out all soda, eating more raw veggies, and trying to drink 1 gallon of water throughtout the day…get my digestive system in order and hopefully lose the extended abdomen and possibly get hormones back to normal. HRT is tricky as you try to fix one u may throw several others off…as you well know. one thing to note (which is what frustrates me) is when i first start taking the multivit my extended stomach is pretty much gone. it’s not fat…more or less its bloating and as if my system is just backed up (i normally have 1 bowel/day…sometimes i do go a day without).

take care
jack

#10

I had a “sluggish liver” when i started taking finasteride and sometimes I wonder if that is why ive got issues now. Though I dont seem to have problems with any other drug so I doubt it. But since finasteride is metabolised by the liver, I wonder if for some reason we did not detoxify it properly or at all for some reason.

I have often suspected that the liver could be a part of this, but there is really no way of knowing how your liver is functioning unless you do a Functional Liver Detoxification Profile and have a doctor who knows how to interpret them. LFTs are very much “it is what it is” and Rockin is quite right when he says that you can have full blown cirohsis, yet your LFT will be normal right until liver failure. I think usually when this happens, there are none or very little liver cells left to die, so the LFT do not eleveated to an alarming rate. IOW the damage had been done long ago.

I certainly wouldnt rule out the liver as a part in our problems, though it is just hard for us to prove anything. Also people who have had these issues for almost 10years, do not report any liver failure on blood tests, or dont have liver. I have high billirubin, or gilberts syndrome and some doctors say this is a form of sluggish liver. Whether that has anything to do with my finasteride problems i do not know. So far no doctor can see a link between the two.

#11

I had several tumors in my liver (hepatocellular carcinoma) that required a 10 and a half hour operation to remove two thirds of my liver and my LFTs came back normal.

Yet eating Macdonalds food and nothing else for one month caused morgan spurlock to have poor LFTs

I think I know which was worse…

Like I said LFTs are of limited use.

In terms of saying that finasteride might cause damage because it has to be detoxifyed by the liver;

To be fair most if not all medications have to be detoxified/cleared by the liver. That in itself does not mean that finaseteride causes liver issues.

Good information is required in terms of evidence. Solid links is what matters and they must be links with propecia and proscar etc moreso than just finasteriude or they must at least relate to similar dosages of finasteride.

#12

When I went in to the ER last August due to major panic attacks I was having, they did all the usual checks for heart attack/chest problems. The blood test revealed LFTs (AST/ALT enzymes) double the normal level. This indicated some liver damage had recently occurred. I also had elevated CK levels (creatine kinase, I believe – it indicates damage to muscles, brain, or heart depending on the type, but it is a lot less specific and indicative than AST/ALT) Everything else was normal (they did not check any hormone levels whatsoever)

While I was on finasteride, I did occasionally drink alcohol (like up to 4 glasses of wine or beer per week, which falls into the “moderation” category), so the doctors quickly blamed it on that. I’m sure it didn’t help… but the documentation for Propecia did not mention liver toxicity nor did it say to avoid drinking alcohol while on it, so how would I know? So… they informed me I likely had fatty liver. [in retrospect, I really should have had a liver biopsy done when I went in for a colonoscopy a little while later for a “diverticulitis” diagnosis I had received in the ER earlier that year – a rare disorder for someone under 30 years old. Could that, too, have been related to fin? Who knows.]

I hope my liver isn’t too permanently screwed up. 2 weeks after ceasing fin and/or alcohol, my LFTs were back to normal, but I haven’t had them tested since then… Today when I went in the doctor told me that “brain fog” can be caused by liver failure, but basically only in advanced cases (cirrhosis). Generally, though, don’t you show more obvious symptoms than brain fog and gyno if you have cirrhosis? For example, doesn’t jaundice generally set in? (or is that only for hepatitis? Is it possible to get cirrhosis and have no idea, or are there more obvious symptoms along the way?)

#13

Guru, it is possible that you can have end stage cirrosis with absolutely normal LFT’s but this is very rare. It means that the damage to your liver was so swift that it was already done before you cottoned on that there was a problem and the blood tests couldnt pick them up. If this was the case though, you would be in pretty bad shape i would imagine.

Best thing to do is to get and ultrasound done of your liver. Its non-invasive and will paint a preeety good picture of whether or not there is an issue. It will either be inflamed indicating fatty liver, or it will be tiny indication scar tissue or cirrosis. Otherwise tumours and cancer could show up also, but if you have a normal size liver on an ultrasound and normal blood work, you can bet your left testi that your liver is not going fail any time soon.

I found this post someone put on a hairloss site, it was very interesting regarding the dangers of taking finasteride with known compromised liver function:
baldingblog.com/2005/05/03/p … follow-up/

I still have a strong hunch that our problems are liver related somehow. Too many of us have had or have funny LFT’s and estrogen metabolism and brain fog are issues for most too. It also explains why symptoms get worse for most when they drop the drug. This could be because the finasteride is coming out of our system and into the blood stream, but not being metabolised properly by the liver so it is backing up in our blood and staying there.