The use of Collagen

Therapeutic Efforts
#61

Day 8

I had 2.5 gr of gelatin yesterday and managed to eat carbs without a reaction. Today, I’m having 5 gr and a large pizza. If I can do that with no reaction, I will have to conclude that either there was a problem with my guts that gelatin fixed, or that doing that ketogenic / carnivore diet i’m doing for 4 months have fixed my allergies.

I slept good yesterday. I went to sleep at 10pm and woke up at 4am. I stayed in bed half awake half dreaming for an extra 2 hours. Maybe I don’t need 8 hours of sleep, maybe I could just sleep 6. I will test that, but later.

I received my vegan protein, so I took a shake made of half vegan, half whey protein for half the cysteines content. I didn’t get nauseous as I use to every time I took whey protein. I think my mini crash 3 days ago was due to eating liver, which is high in cysteines; after eating it I didn’t feel good, then adding a whey protein shake on top of it doubling down on cysteines. That topped it and I went down.

I will now take 5 gr of gelatin (collagen) and go eat some Pizza (Yeah ! Motherfucker ! At last I can eat Pizza !!!
I kneel in awe before the mighty Pizza !). Then I’ll do some weight lifting and put those carbs to use.

I will update this post later today…

Ok. I had the pizza. No allergic reaction to carbs, no anxiety and of course I didn’t have the 1.5 liter of Coke Dominos wanted to sell me with it. Nonetheless, it feels crappy to have that food in my stomach. I should have had some nice meat with a niçoise salad and some sour dough baguette bread, now that I can handle it.

I did plenty of weight lifting and cardio and I feel alright. I’ll see how I sleep tonight, and whether I have stomach burn or not and I’ll conclude the experiment tomorrow.

Day 9

I slept alright, like I did in the last two weeks. It’s not perfect but I get at least 5 hours of deep sleep and the rest of the night I keep dreaming an waking up (like 3-5 times). Usually, I don’t get fatigue during the day but lately I had some around 4pm and took L-tyrosine 500mg to fight it off.

As for the collagen test, I was looking if I could fix potential leaky guts with it to prevent food allergies. I think it worked, but I’ll try eating a handful of peanuts at dinner to see if it has resolved it self completely (last time I had 3 peanuts, I had 3 hours of anxiety)

Pizza, breaded fish stick and oatmeal was no problem, I didn’t get anxiety and problem sleeping, but those carbs did give me a little stomach ache and when I was eating carbs a lot and everyday, 5 months ago, I was having pretty bad acid reflux. Like I couldn’t lie down at night without choking on my own stomach acid. So I think even if my guts are better, my stomach still need work. Raw cabbage and raw cabbage juice would help with this. It thickens the stomach’s lining, helps with the guts and provide DIM, wich is an anti-aromatase which is bad unless I need it. I will try it, but only in conjunction with DHEA, which decrease cortisol (the stress hormone) but increase both testosterone and estrogen. I will take DHEA with glutathione and the DIM present in cabbages (and kale and other cruciferous)

So I don’t get neurological problems from carbs anymore. Now is that due to taking collagen for a week, is it due to the high saturated fat / high protein / no carbs diet I’ve been on for 4 months, I don’t know. The diet put me in ketosis most of the time and that puts the body in the same state as fasting, without the muscle waste and lack of energy. So it’s like a sustained fasting for 4 months. During that diet, I did eat some bone broth and I took a habit of making keto bone broth https://ketodietapp.com/Blog/lchf/Keto-Bone-Broth
I would use the meat for a keto-stew, and use the broth to make low carbs soups I would eat with cheese. olive oil and cucumbers at dinner. So I took collagen in and off for 4 months.

I will continue to take collagen, either in the form of gelatin but preferably in the bone broth soup.

I think the experiment did point out I was taking too much L-Cysteines in the whey protein, especially when adding a duck egg to it. Taking chicken liver on top of that (It’s high in L-Cyteines) really threw me off so that’s good to know.

So this experiment is over. I’m taking the day to eat my usual diet, do my usual routine, and tonight I will slowly start taking aminos to see if I can help with insomnia. I will start a new thread for that.

#62

Many months have past…

I had of motorcycle crash, ended up with road rashes and decided to take antibiotics and collagen peptides, followed by probiotics.

After 5 weeks of good sleep, I’m back to sleepless nights. I believe it’s the collagen that did it, in association with my guts flora destroyed by antibiotics.

Collagen is 1/3 Glycine and Glutamic acid and both are excitotoxins. Most likely, my Glutamic acid levels are high and that’s why I can’t sleep (it’s a neurotransmitter).

So there are dangers to Collagen. Be careful if you choose to take it.

#63

I’m debating on whether or not to try Naked Collagen Peptides. I can’t seem to find a good consensus on whether it has helped PFS sufferers or not.

#64

If you suffer from neurological symptoms, especially brain fog, insomnia and anxiety, IMO Collagen peptide will make it worst. Some people permanently damaged themselves with it and in one case it even led to suicide (from someone with skin problems similar to your).

Collagen has too much Glycine and Aspartic acid. It leads to high Glutamate and lower GABA. That means more stress, depletion of some hormones, neurotransmitters and anti-oxidants and potentially damage to brain cells. It worsen pfs symptoms. It might not be the case for every one, but I wouldn’t take a chance (or rather I did and paid the price for it). There’s a better way to fix the skin.

#65

My skin issues, and all my physical issues, seem to be from the complete silencing and absence of DHT to antagonize Estrogenic effects of the body, even though my DHT levels are right at mid-range. I don’t really know a therapeutic treatment. All i do know is to stay the fuck away from Betaine HCL lol.

#66

I tried a whey isolate for aminos a while back, and it made my brain fog heavier, so my body definitely reacted to it. I don’t know man.

#67

I’m sorry for bringing up Betaine HCL in the first place. I seems to me that along with vitamin A, it got me rid of desensitization and anorgasmia. I now realize there’s more depth to this disease and I believe actions must be taken in a sequence of order to avoid further damage: first going through an elimination process in the diet. Some of what we ate is no longer tolerated. Second, finding the right diet. Only a few months in the diet and after most symptoms have disappeared can someone, IMO, take supplements that would otherwise bring more damage than benefits if taken too soon.

Silencing the androgen receptors is an idea shared by many. I don’t know if it’s been proven or is just a theory so I will not pronounce myself on the subject nor do I rule it out. What I do know, however, is that some people who took SSRI or other anti-depressant also end up with the same sexual symptoms although they didn’t take something that affects as directly sexual hormones as fin does.

What I did find, is that both fin and antidepressants affects neurotransmitter in the hypophysis and hypothalamus, especially GABA, and that this region of the brain is responsible for regulating sexual functions like sex drive, brain-genitalia connection, sensitivity, erection (or lubrication for women), orgasm etc…
It also regulates thirst, body temperature, prevents anxiety, involuntary spasm and regulate sleep. IMO we cannot ignore the possibility of damage or deregulation of this part of the brain. I believe most of the neurological symptoms come from this part of the brain and all my approach since the beginning was focused on that part.

I also tried whey protein isolate for a while, crashed on it once, stubbornly went on taking it and stopped 4 months ago. After I stopped I got better. It’s got too much Glutamic acid, Glycine (both creating metabolites that are excitatory and GABA inhibitors) and can cause nausea and stomach disorder from it’s high Cysteine content (although Cysteine is good to have: it makes Glutathione, the main body’s antioxidant)

I know what I say is boring: I always come back to diet. But it’s the best I could come up with.

#68

You’re right, I need to figure out my diet. I am doing a a MRT food reaction test as done by a holistic dietician, I am hopeful it can enlighten me on what my body reacts to.

In the meantime, what are your thoughts on a probiotic, L-Glutamine, Vitamin D3, ashwagandha?

#69

Why stay away from betaine?

#70

I took Betaine HCL powder, about 1/8th - 1/6th tablespoon for a few days and had a very bad crash. Mentally, It felt like I was in a fucking video game, unbelievable anxiety, dilated pupils, dry mouth, and my estrogenic physical affects skyrocketed. My mental state seems to have stabilized back to PFS baseline

#71

That’s scary, I had a similar reaction by taking broccoli sprout extract and it took a few days to go back to baseline as well, whereas with betaine hcl I’ve taken and noticed no effect. So hard to figure out a protocol when it seems we’re all so different

#72

L-Glutamine creates Glutamate, the main excitatory neurotransmitter and suppress GABA, the main inhibitory one we are low on. It felt bad when I took it, I stopped.
Normal people can take it to relax because they can transform the glutamate into GABA which we are not very good at. We get stuck with high glutamate, it depletes all our protections and then it can lead to brain cell damage.

https://www.jacobsladdercenter.com/doc/research/other/How-to-Increase-GABA-and-Balance-Glutamate.pdf

Probiotic: Good but has to be taken with caution. Start once a week, you can increase after if it’s Ok.
You know your gut’s flora has changed when you start farting and the smell is different ( ha ha ha ! The things we write on this forum !!). Then you stop to avoid overdoing it.

Vitamin D3: From animal source, 1000 IU is the maintenance dose.
Vitamin D2: From plant source, 10000 IU is the dose for fixing vitamin D deficiency.
I started with D2 at the dose above, took it for 6-8 months and then switched to D3 at the dose above to maintain myself. This vitamin is important for the brain and the endocrine functions and deficient in pfs sufferers. When I took my blood test, vitamin D deficiency was the only indicator I had pfs. (they have limited tests in Thailand. There’s a more revealing test available in the US and western countries)

Ashwagandha: Good, even great, but I don’t think you could tolerate it. At first I rejected it and after 6 months of dieting I could handle it.
Along Bacopa, both creates new brain cells, balances neurotransmitters and sexual hormones, especially for men, improve sex drive and are anxiolytic (anti-anxiety = promote GABA). All in the good direction for our condition but the body needs to be strengthened before those can be taken.

My opinion is that in your condition, you cannot pick a few specific supplements out of everything that could possibly be beneficial. It would elevate certain aspect of your system’s balance and thus imbalance other aspects. You need a safe and all encompassing approach that lifts your whole body all at once. Then, once you’re stronger, you can work on the specifics.

#73

Broccoli sprouts also contain DIM (beside Sulforaphane) which is a DHT antagonist.

Betaine HCL eliminate certain forms of estrogen while leaving intact others.It can thus creates an imbalance.

Some of us are reacting favorably to pro androgen, some to pro estrogen. There seems to be a duality in our hormone response. I am still not convinced the problem is actually the hormones themselves rather than the mechanism that regulates them in the hypothalamus / hypophysis region. If it’s the regulator that is broken, it like flipping a coin: it can end up on head or tail: That is pro androgen or pro estrogen.

Some people have had positive results working on the sexual hormones themselves, a lot have made themselves worst.
In the success story compilation thread, a guy who had success with hormone therapy also took an all encompassing approach, including diet and exercise, and worked on many aspect at the same time: the thyroid, the guts bio dome and the hormones.

It’s a network and it’s all interconnected. My approach is to work on the regulator itself: the hypothalamus / hypophysis region, but working on multiple other aspects at once would end up having an effect on this region as well. There are multiple paths to eliminating symptoms. Then time does the healing.

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#74

I was asked on a PM about why collagen is so counterproductive for us guys with PFS?
Considering my answer to this PM complements well this thread, I decided to copy it here.

The experiment on the use of Collagen went moderately well, I had a stomach crash (nausea) in the middle but it appears to be due to eating liver and taking whey protein shake together: nausea being a symptoms of too much L-Cysteine which is abundant in both liver and whey protein. I stopped those two and resumed taking gelatin.

Before this experiment I took bone broth without problem. During the experiment, I took over 25 gr of collagen a day, in the form of gelatin, and it was fine. I think it did it’s job at fixing leaky guts as I had reactions to sugar, cocoa, peanuts etc… before the experiment but not after.

However, more revealing, about 6 weeks ago I had a motorbike crash and was full of road rashes. I took Collagen Peptides to help heal the skin, 15 gr a day for 6 days, and had a severe insomnia crash that took 2-3 weeks to fix after stopping the Collagen Peptides.

It is well documented that the mildest form of collagen is bone broth, then gelatin, and the strongest, 100% bio-available is collagen peptides. I think this is why I crashed on this last one on a lower dose while a higher dose of gelatin, taken for a longer period of time did not trouble my sleep (though it was not great at the time, it did not make it worst)

So to answer the question why collagen is so counterproductive for us guys with PFS?: Many of us guys are already low in GABA. That means insomnia, anxiety, all the neurological problems, feeling cold, having spasm, digestive problems, further decreasing sex drive, sensitivity and erections etc… Some of those symptoms are directly derived from low GABA, some by the lack of GABA regulation on other hormones.

Glutamate and GABA are the main excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitter and they balance each other. Glutamate is the green light that says go to the system, GABA is the red light that says stop. GABA is created from Glutamate by an enzyme called GAD. Collagen is 10% Glutamate and 30% Glycine. Some of the Glycine changes into Allylglycine, which is a powerful GAD inhibitor, thus blocking GABA production.

So for us guys being already low on GABA, when we take Collagen, we increase Glutamate, which decreases GABA, and increases Allylglycine, which blocks GABA production.

If you want to try to fix leaky guts, you can try low doses (like 2 tbsp) of bone broth if you want to go that way. (I will take some again myself but be careful).
You can then increase the dose but moderation should be kept in mind. The signs to look for to see if you’re having a bad reaction is insomnia, anxiety, headaches, increased neurological symptoms. Note that some people have made themselves permanently worst with Collagen. If you get symptoms from it, the way to fix it is: (and it may not fix it for some of us)

Do:
• Animal protein and fat
• Ketogenic diet favor GABA and GAD
• Mackerel has high GABA
• Eating Organic
• Taurine increase GAD and binds to GABA Receptors. (Day time)
• Magnesium (Also activates GABA Receptors.)
• Zinc (no more than 40 mg)
• Probiotics
• Vitamin D (Easy on it)
• Vitamin K (found in Kale for example)
• Vitamin B6
• Lithium (in micro doses)
• Iodine
• Boron
• 5-HTP or Trytophan (beware of 5-HTP, it’s a more powerful form of Trytophan)
• Keeping blood sugar leveled
• Adequate Sleep

Don’t do:
• Sugar, whole grain, Starch
• Glycine
• Glutamate
• Glutamine
• Cysteine
• Theanine
• Casein (Cheese)
• Aspartame (sweetener)
• MSG (Mono Sodium Glutamate)
• Calcium (be careful, don’t eliminate)
• Easy on Glutathione
• Beware of Candida guts and mouth infection, probiotic and BHB salts help.
• Caffeine, Chocolate
• Food that spikes Insulin
• Artificial flavors, colors, sweeteners, additives.
• Pesticides, Herbicides, Heavy Metals , perfume, dish soap, laundry soap
• Benzodiazepine
• Hydrolyzed food, creamers, Yeast, Collagen, Carragenine, Guar Gum or any Gum, Malt, Soy.
• Whey protein, Sport Protein Shake, Branch Chain Amino Acids.
• Processed Meat
• Tomato Juice

Note that all of those are good tips for all of us since we are low on GABA which means Glutamate gets higher. It’s the basis of my current diet and supplementation.

Sources: https://www.jacobsladdercenter.com/doc/research/other/How-to-Increase-GABA-and-Balance-Glutamate.pdf

Composition of Collagen:
image

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#75

anyone have any ideas on how to take low doses (2 tbsp - 2 or 4 oz) of bone broth regularly or every other day without letting the rest spoil? Once it’s frozen then unthawed, you can’t refreeze it usually.

#76

Ice cubes.

#77

Why no theanine? I ask because I suspect it contributed to diffuse hair loss a few years back that led me on the journey to finasteride, looking for a way to fix it. I always suspected it had something to do with messing with my GABA production/receptors.

#78

I read we have poly-glutamic toxicity due to over-expressed AR. It raises glutamate in the brain. Theanine does not help in this condition.

#79

I’ve run into a couple of these studies that show AR mutations at certain amino acids that alter androgen/antiandrogen activity.

I wonder how much of this is due to these gene mutations, especially given that the Baylor study mentioned the extreme amount of genes that were affected. It would explain why some of us have such horrific responses to collagen supplements with all of the amino acids that are going into the body.

If anybody smarter than myself would like to chime in, that would be fantastic.

#80

I’m not smarter but those studies might be a clue to what’s happening to us. I’m not sure changes to our epigenome fits the description of mutations, which are change to the DNA itself, not changes to how our DNA is read (which is what the epigenome does)

It sure look similar to some of our symptoms. However, considering some people do recover while many get better, I still believe the damage was done to the epigenome, which changes easily, rather than the DNA, which only changes through mutations and rarely does so.

I may be wrong on this but that’s my understanding of it.

There’s hope and some people do recover !

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