The Story of Saw Palmetto

Member Stories
#21

got my results back and CRP was normal , the last CRP test was done while i was on those chinese liver herbs that made me ill so that may explain the high inflammation/infection reading.all other tests were normal which is disappointing for me as it means i need to keep searching to find the root of the problem.

thyroid , cortisol , red blood makeup , WBC makeup , calcium , H.pylori and a bunch of others all normal.this is still good to know as i can tick these off as potential causes now - no bacterial infection , no adrenal fatigue issues etc.

if i have a look at my history i first got ill whilst taking saw palmetto back in 2006 , when i stopped saw palmetto most of my symptoms went away within a couple of weeks and my problems resurfaced 10 months later in july 2007 after a night of heavy drinking.

i went to a homeopath for a few months and from my experiences their treatment system is inadequate but their diagnosis system seems to be sound.it said no major health issues just a ā€˜burdenedā€™ liver.well in my opinion this is a liver issue as i have crossed most of the other probables out and the symptom list makes sense (brain fog , digestive issues , low libido , itchy skin) but i am thinking of having a ā€˜liver detoxification profileā€™ to make sure.

i have an appt with a GI doctor tomorrow to discuss these results and also the results of an MRI i had but am not expecting anything strange from the MRI , im expecting the doctor to draw a blank as to the cause of my problems.

im on maca powder and wheatgrass powder as my only supplements right now.iā€™d really like to avoid buying any more supplements as i have gone through too many that did nothing or made it worse and im sick of wasting the money.

#22

Ruffneck, i also was told by two(2) chinese healer that my liver
is very tired but not damaged. What puzzled me is the fact that i have
several lab checked for my liver function and kidney function namely:
SGOT, SGPT, Gamma GT New, Alkaline Phosphate, Ureum, Creatinine,
Uric Acid. All of the test came back ok (everything is good)

Plus i also had two (2) USG of the liver, abdomen, kidney and all come
back ok. All of these tests i did in the last three years.

I currently try another chinese herbs, result is promising but i will give
more time before i post my recovery result.

#23

ok well i went to the doctor and he said i should go to psychiatrist and prescribed me antidepressants etcā€¦

still looking into liver detoxification profile test , hopefully that will be the last test i need to do.

#24

iā€™m trying this test called ā€˜liver detoxification profileā€™
basically you take caffiene pills , paracetemol and aspirin and get saliva/urine samples which they test and see how well your liver is removing these drugs

i took 3 caffiene pills (equivalent to 3 cups coffee) about 30 mins ago and i feel ill as fuck right now.

anyway i will be sending off this kit and get results back in a little over a week hopefully.this test tests phase 1&2 pathways.

#25

well it was about 4 weeks back i sent off the package to the lab with my saliva and urine samples in it.i had to get a referral from some naturoquack , i rang them 2 weeks ago to see if the results had come in yet and they said no but would ring or send me an email when they came in.

then 3 days back i got in the mail the reciept from the lab for the purchase of the profile so i thought i would give the naturoquack another ring to see if the results had come in.they had but they had never bothered to inform me! also the doctor who referred me is on leave for the next 3 weeks (and the other naturoquack there is fully booked) so i have to wait until 21st november.the results are at the naturoquacks office and i canā€™t know them for 3 weeks! what a heap of fucking bullshit
too much waiting with this shit

#26

Before i explained about my recovery process some of the problem that
still bother (ALOT) before the recovery are:

  • Lack of Libido (sex is only once or twice a week)
  • Soft Erection (50% of what it used to be)
  • Soft morning erection (again 50%)
  • No night time erection (before this, whenever i woke up at night
    i always have strong erection)
  • No spontanieus erection
  • Bad stomach ulcer
  • Lack of concentration (brain fog)
  • Felling of anxiety
  • Feeling of fatigue (comes and go)
  • Muscle twicing (very rare, come only when i am very stressful)

After the recovry regime that i started on early September 2008, i have
reduce some of the problem namely:

  • Libido have increase (i now able to have sex 3 times a week)
  • Stronger erection (80 % of what it used to be)
  • Stronger morning Erection (again 80% recoverd)
  • Stomach ulcer is eliminated
  • Feeling of fatique is greatly reduced (only one or two episodes in a
    week)
  • Anxiety is almost gone (i can say 90% better)
  • Muscle twicing is completly gone (yes even under heavy stress no more
    twicing on my arm or thigh)

However i still donā€™t have nocturnal erection and spontanieus erection.

Hereā€™s how i do it. I will try to explained my regime on monthly basis.

Month of July 2008.
i was introduced by my chinese healer to a herb
Curcuma Xanthoriza. I took this in ekstract form 3 capsules@500mg
a day. I have slight improvement in my libido but other aspect remain
the same.

Month of September 2008
Based on the following arcticle i try Choline Bitrate:
jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/260/12/7489

I actually try to find phosphatidylcholines because according to the
article it can activate 5 alpha-reductase within our body. I have
read some where that within our body choline is breakdown to many
other types including phosphatidylcholines. Sorry i forget to keep the
web address. Anyway i take choline birtrate 2 x 250 mg a day. result
within days i notice more energy, oil start to come to my face
again, my stomach ulcer is gone (no more hungry and bloated feeling)
but libido and erection did not change. Also becareful choline has a side
effect which make you sweat more. Since i was excited with the result
i try to take 4 x 250mg a day. but i warn you that you will sweat like
crazy so i have to reduce it to 500 mg a day (i still sweat more than
usuall)

About mid September (this month is really my lucky months)
my mother buy me a herb called
Schisandra extract (it is for liver). It is in tablet form the ingredient is
260 mg extract of Schisandra, Sesamin oil and Vitamin E. Within
two(2) days of takin this herb i really notice a huge impact on my
Sleep and that my anxiety has subsided incredibely ( i took 4 tablets
at night as per suggestion by my mom who was told by the sales counter
that it is better to take it full dosage at night). After
two (2) weeks on this i finally after all this year is able to stop taking
XANAX and i even stop taking GABA supplement all together.
But for those of you who want to try Schisandra becarefull it can
Elevate your blood pressure after more than two(2) weeks i start having
episodes of headched and when i check my blood pressure it was 130/90
so i cut down the dose to two(2) tablets at night per day and my blood
pressure is down again to 120/80. By the way 2 tablets still give me
a good effect

Sorry guys i can not finished my story i have some work to do, i will
try to finish my story this afternoon or if not tommorow. I will try
to provide a very detail of my regime so may be it can help others
sorry for the long post.

#27

Thanks for the update, look forward to your progress.

For others ā€“ his story is here: propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1398

He took Saw Palmetto.

#28

hey mate some questions
can you please give the exact brand name of the schizandra herb product you took
and also the choline supp. which increases alpha-5-reductase did taking this increase your hair fallout , itchy scalp or no change?
also which product helped the most with your mental ā€˜brain fogā€™ issues

thanks

#29

I forget to mention that i have a very bad case of gyno and that it has
not yet resolved until today. I also wanted to explained that after i
start taking the choline birtrate i started to experience moderate
hair loss and that my hair have become more oily.

Regarding Schisandra extract it did not impact my libido ( it remain the
same, erection also remain the same). What positive benefit does
Schisandra have ? it lower my Anxiety level alot, it improved my
sleep and it eliminated my muscle twiching.

here is some infor regarding Schisandra extract

pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ā€¦ id=2258427

sciencedirect.com/science?_o ā€¦ 98b0bdd43e

Regarding my lack of concentration (brain fog) i think the combination
of taking choline birtrate and Schisandra eliminate it.

Month Oktober 2008.

This is the month where i try a new approach, i took Arimidex to see
if it has any positive effect, It does. I currently took .25 mg (1/4 of the
1mg tablet) 3 times a week. The result from this experiment is

  • Libido increase (the urge to have sex is greater than before,
    now i can do it 3 times a week, but this is still far from my old me)
  • Erection become stronger (80 % of it used to be)
  • Morning erection is stronger too (still only 80% of what its used to be)
  • i feel more energised than before (for a moment i thought i was
    back to completly normal)

But unfortunatly i still do not have my nocturnal erection and my
spontaneous erection.

Regarding Arimidex be careful not to overdose.
Because of the positive effect i try it at 0.5 mg for two weeks and at
the end of the two week it reduce my libido, i have weak erection and weaker morning erection and it produced night sweats when you sleep.
It is a sign that you are driving your estrogen to low which is not good.
So i stop taking arimidex for a week and resume with 0.25 mg and
everthing is back to before the big dose.

So if i sum it up, my protocol on daily basis is as follow:

  • 3 x 1@500 mg Curcuma Xanthoriza
  • 2 x 1@250 mg choline birtrate (brand GNC)
  • 2 x 1@260mg Schisandra extract (brand "BRAND"S)

On Weekly basis

  • Arimidex 1 x 0.25 mg, 3 days a week (monday, Wednesday and friday)

My own theory of what happened to my body after taking anti DHT
Saw Palmetto (Extract form)

  1. An aging Liver (liver that produce more estrogen and SHBG due
    to increase in aromatase enyzme and a decrease in 5 alpha enyzme
    just like old man liver)
  2. A strong connection between weak Adrenal and Thyroid function.
    I believe that Saw Palmetto, Finasteride and Dutasteride (the most evil
    of anti DHT drug) induced hypogonadism by blocking DHT and many
    other hormones (only GOD knows what they are)
    and creating more estrogen hormone. All of this create havoc especially
    for the liver, tyroid and adrenal. That is why i have not been able
    to fully recover 100% and that is why so many of us have try
    testosterone replacement but have not got good result.

Below is a link to a study that show a link between adrenal and tyroid

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1500 ā€¦ stractPlus

I want to explore this possibilities but unfortunaltly i can not have my
hand on 7 keto DHEA, only regular DHEA available on GNC and others.
I hesitant to try regular DHEA since it can be converted to testosterone
and therefore to estrogen.

I AM NOT A DOCTOR for people who want to try Arimidex please
consult a doctor or at least try to find information regarding it on :

health.groups.yahoo.com/group/hypogonadism2/

there are many experience user who can provide many valuable
information and explanation. Far better than me.

Hope this post can help some one.

#30

couldnā€™t find that brand of schizendra , this is one i have seen in the shops around here though which i will buy tomorrow

i will try this one first (shizandra) as if i try both the choline and schizandra at the same time i wonā€™t know which one is working and/or giving me a bad reaction or what not

#31

Starting from yesterday i am currently taking 10mg of DHEA on
the day i take arimidex and 5 mg of DHEA on the off day (no arimidex).

I will report any progress either negative or positive, i am planning
to check my Lh, Fsh, Testosterone, Estradiol, Dhea hormones one month
from today.

I am very curios to see if my Lh and Fsh hormones would be
compromised even further or whether it can remain unaffected by
the low dose of Dhea.

#32

can i use lecithin instead of cholin? has it the same effects?

#33

Well i believe Saw P tripped out my liver.

Liver detoxification profile results

Phase 1 : Caffeine clearance (0.5-1.8 ml/min/kg) 2.7 HIGH
When Phase 1 activity is high there is increased metabolic activity at the intermediate phase (before the molecules are presented to phase 2 for conjugation).This results in increased production of free radicals and the potential for secondary tissue damage.

Phase II : Glutathionation (5.6% - 11.4%) 5.4 LOW
Responsible for detoxification of : Pesticides , Paracetemol , Toxic metals , Penicillin , Tetracycline , Petroleum , Alcohol

Sulphation (16-36%) 30%
Glucuronidation (27-56%) 29%
Glycination (30%-53%) 31%

Ratios
Sulphate:Glucuronide (0.3 - 0.7) 1.0 HIGH
Reflects relationship between sulphate and glucuronide.

Phase 1:Sulphation (3.5-13.0) 9.1

Phase 1 : Glycination (1.3-3.5) 8.6 HIGH
Phase 1 : Glucuronide (1.9-4.2) 9.1 HIGH
These two ratios reflect the relationship between Phase I and these conjugation (detox?) pathways and will demonstrate whether the biochemical load from Phase 1 is high or low.

Recommendations
St Marys Thistle , liver detox support tabs , CO-Q10 , multivitamin
Diet - LOW PROTEIN (Meat contains many enzymes and i have high enzyme levels as shown) , more wholegrain , fruit , vegetable etc

#34

I donā€™t know whether lecithin can have the same effect as choline as i
never try it. I have read that lecithin contain phosphatidylcholines, however lecithin can come from many source either from Soy base, Egg based etc.

The soy base lecithin might be tricky, many members at:
health.groups.yahoo.com/group/hypogonadism2/
have advised hypogonadism people to avoid soy products
but then again i donā€™t even know whether the choline i am taking is derived from soy or other source.

#35

Ruffneck i will bet you that phase II is also Responsible for detoxification of estrogen. If you have sluggish liver it will mess up with your libido.

Have you try Choline birtrate? it might help to improve liver function.
I no longer have bloating problem after heavy meal since taking choline.
I think choline improve my liver function

#36

so your advice to kill the mental side effects is schisandra and cholin bitarate right?

i dont know where to get cholin bitarrateā€¦ i already ordered schisandra!! do you have some other advices?? would be great! best

#37

yes the combination of taking Schisandra extract and choline bitrate
reduce my anxiety, lack of concentration and improve my sleep.

In what country do you live Japanther ? you could get choline in your
local GNC shop, Natural farm or other health shop. IF they donā€™t have
choline bitrate you could try other type of choline like choline chloride.

MY PROGRESS since my trial with taking low dose DHEA (11 days
so far):

  • I started to have nocturnal erection (although it is only half as strong
    as my morning erection). Also i do not have them everyday it is like
    every two to three days. i can not explain it why.

  • i started to have Spontaneous erection (on three seperate occasion
    where i think dirty about women). Again this also does not happen
    everytime.

  • My libido is going up. I am constantly thingking about opposite sex almost like before taking Saw Palmetto. For example when i walk in
    side shopping mall and there is a good looking women, i instantly start
    to think dirty :slight_smile: .

Bottom line is i think i have a weak adrenal and supplement it with
low dose of DHEA helps alot. But i will not increase my DHEA dose
before taking necesary test next month to see if my LH and FSH is
supress.

#38

hey thx for ypur reply!

okay, first i use the schisandra 2* 300 mg a day
this schisandra product i use i in combination with pomegranate extractā€¦ do you think that matters?

i live in germany, i cant found any cholin bitarrateā€¦ in the pharmacy, they dont even what cholin isā€¦

i use schisandra for about 3 days now, i recocgnized no results until nowā€¦

okay, i found cholin bitarrate nowā€¦ i it ordered it onlineā€¦l i hope i get it the next days

how long did it take tzill you got results? i have anxiety and brainfog since about 4 months now!

i went bzetter for about one week ā€¦ this was about 3 weeks ago., now it was coming back!!

thx again man!

#39

Japanther i have read somewhere that pomegranate fruit like grapefruit
can inhibit some enzyme activity in the liver. This means that if you take
certain medication it take longer for the liver to process it.

I donā€™t know what enzymes it inhibit and what medication is affected, you
must google (research) it to be sure. Are you on any other medications?

I first use choline birtrate, this provide me with energy and cured my
stomach ulcer and bloated feeling within one week time (more or less)
and then i use schisandra extract, the calming effect took place within two days of using it (4 tables x 260 mg). I took all the schisandra tablet at night and found out that it improved my sleep and axiety level. But i think
the full benefit come after taking it for about two(2) weeks.

Japanther do you get your side effects due to finasteride or from
other anti-DHT drug?

#40

hey man,
thc for reply.

I was just on revovogen but had the same effects like fin!! i was on fin beforeā€¦ i stopped it after 2 days using.

I revivogen last year and i had the same thing for about 4 weeksā€¦ now i thought maybe its working now and i used it again ( iĀ“m an idiot sure)

and now i have the same side effects since 4 months nowā€¦

but i have to sayā€¦ today iĀ“m feeling much better then the days before. I dont know if its the schisandra. Its day 4 of taking todayā€¦

IĀ“m still not 100 % but its much better then the last weeks.

i had only anxiety and deoressions of itā€¦ thats all!!

do you think the cobination with pomegranate isnt good?

greetings