Admittedly, this may not happen to everyone who takes the drug, but I suspect it could potentially happen to all users sooner or later. What all these medicines and herb have in common is that they bind to androgen receptor sites (among countless other known and unknowable effects); and, consequently systemically dry out the body; which, is probably the worst thing you can do to your body. The brain fog that everyone cites and loathes is a result of the dehydration. The tremendous injustice is that people take the drugs assuming that the effects are temporary, but they potentially may not be; and, even the prescribing doctors find this hard to believe. Like I previously mentioned I have taken all of the above; and, when you are experiencing the side effects you can not tell them apart: they are all effectively identitical. The people who take Accutane and report tiredness, fatigue, easily sunburnt skin, sore joints, sore tendons, sore muscles, brain fog, dry lips, dry eyes, impotence, etc., are just so dried out that nothing works anymore. Everyone knows that the liver stores fat soluble vitamins; and, after months of megadosing on vitamin A, some of it hangs around and causes problems. The only remedy to all of this is time and attempting to expel the drug residues from you liver (liver herbs, liver flushes, sauna, running and exercising). If at all possible, try to hold back from injesting any other drugs or supplements as I believe the liver is already burdened, and I donât believe liver function tests report this.
Uh, no, this is simply ridiculous.
Brain fog from Finasteride (and other 5AR inhibitors) is likely due to a combination of documented effects of inhibiting 5AR:
- Androgen deprivation (loss of DHT)
- Reduced 3a-HSD enzyme activity and loss of Adiol-G levels
- Loss of Allopregnanolone (neurosteroid implicated in cognitive dysfunction, mood disorders and depression)
- Loss of THDOC (neurosteroid implicated in stress response, seizures, anti-anxiety effects)
Please do some research and get your facts straight before posting nonsense.
Post study to back up this claim.
Ah, so youâve found the solution to everyoneâs problems when medical professionals like Dr. Jacobs and Dr. Crisler admit they do not know the exact causes? Just wait and do nothing (time), or do a liver detox program, some running and sit in a sauna, and youâll be cured? Interesting that many people have tried such methods and seen little to no long term improvement.
Look â the drug is long gone from the liver, it is metabolized within 6-8 hrs. It is not stored there and permanently affecting us. The above suggestions, while useful for general health, have no bearing on the lasting effects of androgen deprivation from 5ARI use.
Thatâs because thereâs nothing to report, since what you are proposing 99.9% does not hold water in this situation⌠and no offense, but a âbeliefâ is not proof of anything. Cheers.
Mew,
I appreciate that I somewhat conflated brain fog as a symptom of 5AR inhibition with unchecked systemic dehydration; however, I was attempting to draw attention to dehydration as debilitating. I am arguing that dehydration is a symptom of androgen blockade. Every anti-androgen that I have come a across lists dehydration as a possible side effect. I should have chosen my words more carefully and tempered my statement by saying that dehydration caused by androgen inhibition plays a contributory role in brain fog. The herbs Saw Palmetto and Vitex promote dieresis, and the medicine Spironolactone is also a diuretic. Before I said brain fog is caused by dehydration, I did mention that there are countless known and undocumented effects of hormonal suppression. I am sure that reduced 3a-HSD enzyme activity, loss Adiol-G levels and loss of Allopregnanolone are likely implicated in brain fog (as you mentioned). I tend to think a lot of dried out bodies in relation to comments made by Accutane survivors, when they say that their entire bodies are bone dry.
With reference to Vitamin A potentially being stored in the body; this potentiality is common knowledge. Please see:
burgerman.info/www-nursing/liver.htm
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6313881
Now as far as the capacity for modest-large doses of vitamin A being able to cause damage, see the following link; also pay attention to the last line that reads: âThe data also indicate that prolonged and continuous consumption of doses in the low âtherapeuticâ range can result in life threatening liver damage.â
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2019375
In regard to Isotretinoin and Vitamin A and there capacity for storage, it is not totally implausible that indefinite storage of the aforementioned substances could see one experiencing side effects for years, after cessation of supplementing. The ensuing study cites that through supplementation Vitamin A storage in the liver can be increased 100 times or more to that which would occur through diet alone.
journals.cambridge.org/action/di ⌠aid=779652
Given that there is no scientifically sanctioned ways to flush a liver of excess vitamin and drug residues, I said that people can try taking liver toning and regenerating herbs. I did not say that this would guarantee success, but there really arenât any options period. Moving on from Isotretinoin, I said that it may be the case that adipose accumulations of Propecia has occurred in some. Again, my intentions are that it is worth considering given the Accutane experiences. In regard to drug residues, see the following:
People have already tried sauna treatment - and it hasnt worked.
Vitamin A (a fat soluble vitamin) and Finasteride are completely different substances. While they may share similar mechanisms of action (5AR inhibition), they are metabolized and excreted by the body in different ways. After metabolism by the liver, Finasteride is excreted in feces and urine (note chart on right).
books.google.ca/books?id=R0W1Erp ⌠on&f=false
Isotretinoin, as you point out, is a form of high-dose Vitamin A (retinoic acid), which is fat soluble.
Here are common side effects from androgen deprivation therapy:
racgp.org.au/afp/200808/200808kabir.pdf
supportiveoncology.net/journ ⌠402097.pdf
Anyway, Iâm not sure what you are here to argue about, really. If people want to try liver flushes, tonics and sauna cleanses, they can do whatever they choose⌠but in my opinion it will make no difference, since (as other doctors have alluded to), the problem very likely has to do with androgen metabolism, and possibly androgen receptor function. Thanks for presenting your thoughts on this topic, regardless.
I didnât know that Vitamin A was a 5AR inhibitor. I googled it and couldnât find any references. Do you have a reference?
Isotretinoin has anti-androgenic properties and affects 5AR metabolism, as well as lowering serum DHT and Adiol-G. However, it is primarily a 5AR Type I inhibitor (skin/sebum/brain/liver).
jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ⌠/78/5/1064
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1827 ⌠tionsensor
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2965551
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7714084
Retinoid-androgen interactions section, 3rd sentence.
books.google.ca/books?id=wqdFSSU ⌠&q&f=false
I donât believe this theory of propecia being stored in the liver cells. However, I do think itâs entirely possible that propecia caused bile to pile up in the liver and gall stones. In turn our bodies are unable to remove certain items from our bodies such as heavy metals.
I donât either. Itâs just not possible. Iâve fasted for up to three weeks and then eaten nothing but raw foods for months. No supplements, nothing. My body was completely âcleanâ and some sides still remained. It may be burndened in the beginning (your liver) but itâs a very resiliant organ and it can be cleaned out very easily. Especially during a water only fast.
Mew, ive added some responses in CAPS:
Uh, no, this is simply ridiculous.
Brain fog from Finasteride (and other 5AR inhibitors) is likely due to a combination of documented effects of inhibiting 5AR:
- Androgen deprivation (loss of DHT)
- Reduced 3a-HSD enzyme activity and loss of Adiol-G levels
- Loss of Allopregnanolone (neurosteroid implicated in cognitive dysfunction, mood disorders and depression)
- Loss of THDOC (neurosteroid implicated in stress response, seizures, anti-anxiety effects)
Please do some research and get your facts straight before posting nonsense.
HMMMMMMMâŚUM MEW, HE HAS AN OPINON. PLEASE DONT SHOOT THE GUY DOWN FOR HAVING AN OPINION THAT DIFFERS FROM YOURS.
Post study to back up this claim.
PLEASEâŚIT NEVER HURTS TO HAVE MANNERS OTHERWISE YOU MAY COME ACROSS AS RUDE ESPECIALLY TO NEW MEMBERS WHO MAY HAVE SOMTHING TO ADD.
Ah, so youâve found the solution to everyoneâs problems when medical professionals like Dr. Jacobs and Dr. Crisler admit they do not know the exact causes? Just wait and do nothing (time), or do a liver detox program, some running and sit in a sauna, and youâll be cured? Interesting that many people have tried such methods and seen little to no long term improvement.
THIS GUY MAY BE CLOSER TO THE ANSWER THAN YOU THINK. THE LIVER IS PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT ORGAN IN THE BODY WHEN IT COMES TO HORMONES AND METABOLISM. THERE IS EVERY CHANCE THIS DRUG MAY STILL BE STUCK EITHER IN OUR LIVER OR OUR SMALL INTESTINE. DO SOME RESEARCH ON WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DETOX FROM COCAINE AND HEROIN MEW.
Look â the drug is long gone from the liver, it is metabolized within 6-8 hrs. It is not stored there and permanently affecting us. The above suggestions, while useful for general health, have no bearing on the lasting effects of androgen deprivation from 5ARI use.
IT IS METABOLISED IN 6 - 8 HRS IF YOUR METABOLISM IS GOOD. THE GUYS ON THIS FORUM SHOW ALL SORTS OF SIGNS OF A FAILING METABOLISIM. DID FINASTERIDE CAUSE IT OR DID FINASTERIDE AN ORIGINAL PROBLEM WORSE? WHO KNOWS? WHY ARE WE STILL HAVING SIDES WHEN OTHERS RECOVERâŚAGAIN WHO KNOWSâŚNEVER HURTS TO TALK ABOUT IT THOUGH AND BRAIN STORM. THIS IS HOW WE MOVE FORWARD. MEDICINE NEVER MOVED FORWARD BY DOCTORS AND RESEARCHERS STICKING THEIR HEAD IN THE SAND.
Thatâs because thereâs nothing to report, since what you are proposing 99.9% does not hold water in this situation⌠and no offense, but a âbeliefâ is not proof of anything. Cheers.
HMMMM AGAIN YOUR WRONG IN YOUR ASSUMPTIONS MEW. TIME AND TIME AGAIN, LIVER FUNCTION BLOOD TESTS CAN BE NORMAL, YET A LIVER DETOXIFICATION PROFILE CAN SHOW CHRONIC ABNORMALITIES IN HOW THE LIVER ACTUALLY FUNCIONS. NO OFFENCE YOU SAY?? I THINK YOU OFFENDED THE POOR FELLOW A FEW PARAGRAPHS BACK. HES ONLY TRYING TO HELPâŚ
J89, while I respect your opinions, the manner in which you are going about trying to âstir things upâ at every opportunity is getting annoying.
The concepts the previous poster was presenting (âbrain fog from dehydrationâ) is simply conjecture. On the other hand, we have scientific, published studies correlating loss of neurosteroid synthesis from Finasteride, and resultant effects on brain function, cognition, depression and anxiety, all of which he conveniently ignored.
It seems for the most part you tend to be overly gullible, and choose to post non-factual, emotional based responses with little to no science to back up your claims (ie, no use of peer-reviewed journals). I will not partake in these types of discussions. However, if you continue to troll and disrupt posts simply to stir up arguments for the sake of arguing, this will need to be addressed by the moderators and Admins.
Are you threatening to kick me off the forum? Just so weâre on the same page.
I doubt a lot of this cutting edge detoxification stuff would be available on the net. I know my doctors have to attend conferences to learn how to do it. Thats why they are such good doctors - because they take it upon themselves to learn the latest. Unfortunately, with the latest in medicine, you dont find it all over the internet and its hard to find literature. Also these doctors im referring to are actually General Practitioners. They are real doctors. These are the people I get all this information from. You should be thankfull youâre getting it for free. And again, they are the doctors for professional athletes to keep them in tip top condition. I dont know whats so hard to understand about that. They use hair mineral analysis, urinary amino acid profiles, liver detoxification profiles, gut microbial analysis. Im sorry if all of this stuff, are things youâve never heard of Mew, but im telling you, its the latest in medicine and will absolutely help us find out whats going on with us. There are no guarentees, but why not investigate?
Why do you think Dr Crisler endorses Life Extension magazine? Have you read them? Why is Dr Crisler very curious when he reads about flax seed having an estrogenic effect on males? Everyone here can make their own mind up.
This is the difference between an anti-aging doctor and a normal GP or specialist. Anti aging medicine is far and away ahead of anyone IMO and in the opinons of leading mens health doctors.
I donât want to particularly add anything further to this debate; but, I will say that my first post was problematic in that it was horribly unsubstantiated. I really didnât feel that Mew was rude. I went on to provide the scientific validation that I should have initially included. I will add however; that Finasteride is indeed a lipophillic (fat-liking) compound that is converted into a more readily excretible product by the liver. Now given that the liver must do this every single day when you ingest the drug for sometimes years on end; it is fathomable that on one of those many occasions; and, as the liver is involved in numerous other processes, that the process could falter; and, the chemical alteration does not occur.
The following is taken from the Merck Manual: it reads
âThe liverâs primary mechanism for metabolizing drugs is via a specific group of cytochrome P-450 enzymes. The level of the cytochrome P-450 enzyme controls the rate at which many drugs are metabolized. The capacity of the enzymes to metabolize is limited, so they can become overloaded when blood levels of a drug are high.â
I believe there is a problem with the liver when we come off, and it is supposed to be âflushed out of our systemâ (how many docs say that to us?) which can be exacerbated by alcohol. Plenty of guys get worse if they do this in that timeframe between stopping and DHT returning. Also, Dr Irwig asked how much alcohol we consumed during the survey.
Plenty of guys get worse if they dont also
Yeah, I know, I wasnât saying this was exclusively responsible just noting a trend.
I know dude, i think liquor could have played a part in some cases but for meâŚit was over either way
I have stumbled across two articles which may interest some. The first one is about a woman who fell pregnant 90 days after the cessation of her Accutane course (arguably should have been out of her system in 1 month): only to find that the foetus had been effected by the drugs teratogenic effects.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19961047
This second article discusses the potential of licensed drugs and natural supplements to cause hepatotoxicty. This is the full version:
These are prime examples of how things get stored in your liver and tissues, long after they have left your blood stream.