The Liver and Finasteride

General Discussion
#1

Cdnuts, I wasnt aware that you were recovering…??

Is there a thread link you can give to the forum that explains the nuts and bolts of what you are doing and the outcome?

I have my suspicions that the liver plays a role in our problems. Not permanent or irriversible liver damage as in chirosis, but that our bodys have been overwhelmed by toxins from too much estrogen and possibly the drug itself. There could also be gut issues (as in dysbosis-need antibiotics) that put further pressure on the liver.

This is why I think that some men note improvement with a raw food diet. You are essentially detoxifying your liver and as a result, your body. I wouldnt be surprised if we kept estrogen in check via arimdex that we couldnt get rid of all the estrogen and then allow our body to reach homeostasis by allowing the liver to function properly which would improve adrenal and thyroid function also. Of note, a sloppy liver wont show up on a blood test. There are Liver Detxification Profiles you can get done in Australia.

JN, this may be another avenue you may want to consider - LDP. The test is cheap and shows your phase 1 and phase 2 detoxification and the interealionship between the two (one effects the other) - not the state of the liver but how it FUNCTIONS. Once you know how it functions you treat any abnormality…for instance a lot of people’s phase 1 is faster than phase 2 etc…so you can then slow down phase 1 and increase phase 2.

Cdnuts this is a very important question…How is libido?..the truth.

Thanks.

#2

I must also add to this thread that a few months after I stopped taking Finasteride, and with totally trashed Free T, zero libido and a shrunken d*ck…I had a colon hydrotherapy session. Google it.

Basicaly they stick a hose up your ass and empty your small intestined. This then, temporarily and significantly reduces the toxic load on your system.

I cannot remember if it was that night or the following night, im pretty sure it was the same night, my libido was absolutely off the scale high. I have never been so horny in my entire life. It was incredible.

What I think happened is that for a breif period, my liver was able to function properly with less stress on it and in turn, my entire endocrine system found a balance - homeostasis. Adrenals, thyriod, estrogen, the lot and the outcome was somthing that will be tattoed in my brain forever.

This is why I feel that our livers (or some of our livers) may be backed up with estrogen. Any hormone you put into your body will have to be broken down and eliminated via the liver. If we have excess estrogen, it builds up in our tissues and simply lowering it could be all we need to detoxify the estrogen and find that balance again that we had before we took this drug.

I think what JN is trying with the DHT is a vaild theory and one that I would love to try myself at some time. It just plain makes sense. But given the above, how then if we have a dht problem, did my libido come rocketing back? Surely the above must dismiss a receptor problem also.

Perhaps we are lacking in DHT or receptors arent working and the above somehow made my body temporarily hypersensitive to hormones in a similar way that speed does - I dont know.

Of note I have since had two colon cleanses that produced no change whatsoever.

Discuss.

#3

what a conincedence. I just arrived the same conclusion that our livers are affected few days back. I was about to post but you posted already. The patient with cirosis have the same symptoms their T-leve goes down and estrogent climbs up… Patients suffere extreeme depression and erectile dysfunction Unfortunately I forgot which website gave me these all detail. anybody can google and find many websites.We don’t have cirosis but malfuncioning liver after propecia or SP both are injorious to liver.
I remember one of my cusine had liver problems years ago (15 or so years). He had the same symptoms

1-lack of apetite
2-constant nausea
3.vomitting.
4. Extreme depression (he was crying all the time, saying every day he would die and not gona survive)
5.bad breath,
6.bad mouthe taste
7.cold hands and feet. I remember was always complaining about his cold hands and feet. I don’t know he was low in T level but remember very well he had become very scary cat.

He took a long to time to recover , I think 3-4 years. But full recovery took longer than that.

Here some chaps are using raw veg and fruits I am sure they are on right track.

No what I feel

1- nausea
2-cold hands and feet
3-bad mouth taste , like when you have fever.
4- can not digest fatty food. I am also living on boiled food.

I think our livers are at fault. We need to monitor our food constant and not eat any thing which cause liver to work excessivley
1- no can food
2-not a lot of meat, .8 gram/kg of body is ok and we need it.
3-No drink at all.It is very fatal
4-green veg and fruit.
5- no sugary stuff

I am sure, recover is hard but not impossible.

#4

Liver-related theories have been discussed previously:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=789
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=859

#5

After doing a little research on the liver, I am now almost certain that my problems are due to liver chirosis or liver disease.

Read the symptoms on this link. You will find high estrogen, low free T, less density in semen along with a host of other symptoms that most of us suffer from . It explains why some men recover as the liver can rebuild itself depending on the damage done.

Im going to see my doctor and get a referral to a liver specialist.

springerlink.com/content/634475m3v3417221/

#6

Further:

Liver issues would explain why controlling E with Arimidex proves so diffucult to dose. Because with a comprimised liver, your body can take literally ten times longer to metabolise the medication. So in effect we end up taking the equivilent of ten times the dose of Arimdex and or ten times the dose of Testosterone, making dosing all the more difficult.

It explains why some men never have issues on Finasteride, it explains why a small group have attrocious side effects that are significant. So when you mix the fact we probably took the equivilent of ten times the dose of Finasteride with the fact that either A - we had compromised liver function before we even took the drug (which is what I suspect) or B - finasteride itself did the damage, you can see how this can create a train wreck waiting to happen.

Poor liver function mixed with a highly potent Male sex hormone inhibitor that in itself probably caused even worse liver function = big problems.

The liver is responsible for metabolising every hormone in your body (correct me if im wrong as im not a doctor but I do know that estrogen and testosterone at least are metabolised in the liver). So if we were alreaady having trouble metabolising estrogen, then when we add Finasteride which promotes estrogen you can see how things can go pair shaped, keeping in mind that along the way liver function likely got even worse purely by taking Finasteride itself.

The outcome is you end up with worse liver function, a back up of estrogen in the tissues and a negative feedback loop in HPTA (that we were pre-disposed to). So you as estrogen rises, free testosterone falls and we get a back up of estrogen in the TISSUES that is need of detoxifcation. This leads to diminished libido, brain fog, anxiety, adrenal issues, thyroed problems and ultimately feeling utterly terrible.

So apart from the actual liver damage itself, dealing with the estrogen may be a good first step in getting sexual function back with or without testosterone (as liver damage itself can cause hypogonadism).

#7

J89,

What did your 3-Adiol G test at?

#8

anonn1 I am yet to test it. As soon as I can find out how to test it I will. If anyone knows please tell me. I am in Australia.

#9

annon, I am just not sure that its a lack of DHT anymore given all of the above. Sure we lack Testosterone and are in excess of estrogen. This will negate all of DHT’s positve effects.

When we stop taking the drug, the side effects should stop as the drug is elimnated from our system. The question is why do the symtoms get worse when we stop the drug?

My answer to this is that our body was left in such an estrogenic state that upon discontinueing the drug, our bodys have been trying to detox the estrogen ever since. In the same way that you get worse before you get better when detoxifying any other substance…Our body went into overdrive pulling out months or years worth of estrogen from our tissues, which flooded the blood stream. Poor liver function makes this process a real bitch.

  • Or its the finasteride itself that we are detoxing.
#10

Its important to note also that liver disease and chirosis can go undiagnosed until late stages of the disease. Liver blood tests can be within normal range and ultrasounds of liver can appear normal. In fact it takes a lot of damage for the liver to even produce blood tests and imaging that are abnormal.

So I wouldnt think that because your blood tests say your liver is fine that it is, because biopsy is the only sure way of knowing. I am certainly not implying that you should go and get a biopsy because as far as surgery goes this is a dangerous operation. Nor am I implying that every one here has liver disease or chirosis. I am putting it to everyone that a number of us may in fact be harbouring a disease of the liver including chirosis.

We must keep our minds open, even if its not what we want to hear. Im just trying to make the peices of the puzzle fit and so far this is the best explanation that I can come up with in the years that I have been watching this hideous thing unfold.

#11

We have identified a pattern with people who have low 3 Adiol G reading(10+ people on this forum, we need more readings, I intend on getting mine done soon as well) Low DHEA, and low Pregnolne.

Now, DHT could be in the normal or high range, but 3 Adiol G could be super low. Reason being is 3 Adiol G is a true marker for 5 AR II activity which is located in the brain, testes, and prostate.

A high DHT could mean that 5 AR I is producing high amounts, however a low 3 ADIOL G is a true marker.

I do respect your what your saying on the liver, especially if we drank alcholol while taking finasteride, it could intensify the drugs strength and toxicity.

With that being said, I’ve been off this drug for 7+ years and am not feeling 100% better…I have tried diets, detox, and such, with no success. What I find helps is yohimbine, tribulus, and other herbal supplements like Horny goat weed.

Those are short term fixes however, and I only feel 40% while on them.
I’m sticking with JN’s theory, until anything else is proven otherwise.

Good Luck.

#12

Annon in no way am I suggesting that we dont have a 3 Adiol G problem. We very most likely do.

Im just throwing out other ideas that people may want to investigate further as the symptoms fit.

I know for a fact that I too have low DHEA. Just not sure about the other two YET.

#13

I found a couple articles that may bolster the theory that our problems could be liver induced. The theory is as follows:

  1. Via this link “Finasteride is extensively metabolized in the liver, primarily via the cytochrome P450 3A4 enzyme subfamily.”
    rxlist.com/proscar-drug.htm

  2. This link states that in children with 5ARII deficiency that males have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. In this instance they are given estrogen supplements via a drug called Premarin to aid in their “female” development. This drug under the “Interactions” tab states that “pharmacologic and toxicologic effects of corticosteroids may occur as a result of estrogen-induced inactivation of hepatic P450 enzyme”. Hey that’s the same enzyme that metabolizes finasteride. So fin raises estrogen, which then damages the enzyme P450, so that it can no longer metabolize fin. Scary.
    emedicine.medscape.com/article/924291-treatment

  3. Finally this article states that a SERM called Raloxifene (which I believe acts somewhat like an estrogen in the body) “that cytochrome P450 (P450)3A4 is inhibited by raloxifene in human liver microsomal incubations” and it states that “The nature of the inhibition was irreversible”
    pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx0200109

I have posted before that maybe it was possible that some of us lost our ability to metabolize fin over time, so that some people took 9 pills and were damaged, while some took years to get the same effect. This would also seem to support the current theory on the board that maybe lowing of estrogen could reverse this effect?

#14

annon im not talking about liver problems from drinking on Finasteride, im talking about liver problems that likely started up to 10 - 15 years ago. From what I understand, the liver has a way of taking on damage without any ill effects, until its almost on its last legs before you start feeling ill or possibly in our case, take the prescription pill that “pushes it over the edge”. As I said earlier, a lot of liver disease patients had normal blood work right up until late stage liver disease.

At the very least I suspect a very sluggish or a liver whos detoxification pathways are clogged up and in need of clearance.

Annon your talking about things that are “proven”. Anything short of us all getting a liver biopsy is not “proof”. It doesnt meant that this line of thought should not be persued. Did you read the symptoms of liver disease on that link? And you tell me if the peices fit or not.

A humans health begins and ends at the liver, it is responsible directly and indirectly for just about every function in the body.

#15

Maybe for some reason other than an obvious blockage(i had an abdominal ultra magnus sound) things that are/were meant to be excreted via the bile have not been and they have piled up in the liver and possibly other organs if the liver is full.
Im guessing theres no way blood tests would show this, possibly a liver biopsy would.

#16

I REALLY think there’s something to this aswell.

I’ve started felling really bad and my symptons have worsened the last few weeks.

One thing ive been doing FAR too much is…drinking. I think im constinuously straining my liver and its not getting a change to self-correct.

I still believe the other things. I believe my prostrate is imflammed and shrunken etc but the body is a complicated thing and more interrelated than we’ll EVER begin to understand.

Well i understand one thing. I’m going to treat my liver like a king for a while to see how that fairs out. Im pretty positive i’ll be posted good results.

Will document as i go along mofos :slight_smile:

#17

This is where i have arrived after my use of normast.

What led me here, when i drink i dont get a hang over straight away, but it lasts alot longer than it used too.
When i took normast i felt worse, but not straight away, the next day i felt like shit.
Very fatigued and alot more brain fog.

Study showing adiolg is produced mainly in the liver

Feels like to me my liver can not detoxify my system the same as it could pre finasteride.

#18

Wondering if anyone has an opinion or can add to this,

Finasteride inhibits 5b reductase, right?

So on finasteride we had a 5b reductase deficiency.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20522910

#19

This is a common report as many anecdotally discuss extended hangovers here from less and less alcohol as they took finasteride. It seems that this progressed the longer someone took finasteride. It may not be an issue for those who only took 1 or a few pills however.

Someone else can jump in but I think finasteride is primarily a 5 Alpha Reductase type 2 inhibitor. I think it inhibits other enzymes also but not primarily.

#20

My hangovers are terrible, even after just a few drinks.