Read that again – it’s an officially listed side effect by Merck and the FDA. Since the drug causes testicular upregulation of Testosterone production by 15-20%, this is 99.99% the likely culprit – NOT “copper detoxification”, as you want to believe.
Stop promoting this red herring as if it is the source of everyone’s problems, please. It is completely misleading and based on delusions which have NOTHING to do with Finasteride whatsoever.
You’ve GOT to be kidding me Mew. What gives you the right to tell me that I cant post a legitimate side effect of a very common medical problem. I will remind you again that one fellow on these forums has recovered from this condition.
So you’re now siding with MERK - of all people and claiming that what they say on the packaging is now true? PPPUUULEEEAAASEEEE…
Lets keep an open mind here Mew or as Ive said in the past you are DRASTICALLY lowering the chances of people recovering here - which is what the forums are supposedly for.
This link is from ARL Pathology. They’ve been around for years…Referring to copper detoxification symptoms…Everyone can listen to Mew or make their own mind up as to whether Copper toxicity is worth persuing.
“Other less common symptoms include pain in the testicles in men, changes in the menstrual cycle in women and joint pains.”
Mew, let me explain why I get so damn frustrated when you add this type of stuff to the forum. I have been to probably over 30 doctors, all over my country and even overseas. Ive tried pretty much all there is to try to get myself better. Hormones, Accupuncture, ive given it time, ive tried herbs, vitamins and minerals, anti-depressants, chiropractors…the list goes on.
Ive also done a LOT of my own personal research and talked to a LOT of guys who took finasteride. I feel my knowledge on this subject is at least as much as yours if not more. And here you are bagging a legitimate idea that is backed by a RECOVERY.
Am I the only one who can see the insanity in this? It hits me right where it hurts when you stop other ideas from being talked about on these forums, because you are essentially slowing down my recovery. I will remind you that its been 5 years of living hell.
I know about all the theories that are talked about on these forums over and over again. There are entire threads dedicated to them. And now your telling me I cant add a single idea to a thread because the shoe fits that idea - for the sake of giving a guy a small window of hope and a geniune possible path to recovery. If we are only alowed to talk about things to do with hormones or western medicine then ive completely mis-interpreted the intentions of this forum and perhaps I need to go and start my own, more open minded forum, who’s focus is on finding out how to fix post finasteride syndrome.
ok J899 you think we have got copper toxicity, fine. Now go and get some solution or cure your self. If you get cured we all will follow you Not only that we shoudl announce a prize for whoever finds the solution.
Honestly I could not digest copper theory. what copper has to do with 5 AR inhibitors?
sps
Exactly. Stop talking about it and DO SOMETHING about it for Christ sakes. Why bother trying to convince people? It makes NO SENSE. Go and get your copper detoxed from your body and find out once and for all. Really, just do it already. If it works, FANTASTIC for you. Maybe then you’ll have some believers. Right now it’s just a theory, that’s it. Go take care of it. Who cares what anyone thinks? You shouldn’t. The only thing you should care about is getting YOURSELF better. So rather then try and convince people, just go do it.
Striken, I dont want a prize for finding the solution. Nor do I want everyone to beleive that copper toxicity is some magic bullet. But I would like to bring up a point in thread when I see a symptem that might warrant someone to look into copper toxicity. Also it really helps if more than one person is getting tested for this. It kinda sh*ts me when guys just sit back and let others spend the time and money to get these tests.
I am already detoxing copper. I have been for a couple of months on the advice of my naturapath.
What does copper have to with 5AR? You’re obviosly not reading my posts, but I will explain it again for you. There is a strong correlation between copper and estrogen. If one has copper toxicity, he will also have high estrogen activity. With high copper, your body becomes estrogenic. So when you take a 5AR inhibitor, you inhibit 5AR which increases your estrogen, which increases your copper and from there its a vicious circle of copper and estrogen working together to make you feel terrible. On top of that, copper depletes zinc which responsible for testosterone production. Zinc is to minerals what DHT is to hormones. Its the “man” mineral.
Why doesnt anyone else understand the importance of more than one person (me) getting tested for this stuff? (especially if they have the commone symptoms!)
How will me move forward at such a snails pace? Instead of sitting back claiming I should get tested (if you read my posts, I already am getting tested), howabout you encourage others with the symptoms to get their mineral profile tested as well?
Your just not getting it. How can you not see that its far better to get a few of us tested than just me. I could have copper toxicity but also and estrogen problem and feel no positive result. Yet another could have copper toxicity and his estrogen happens to be in the right spot and feel a total recovery. Or a guy could have estrogen, and copper toxicity diagnosed and treated, but his dhea is low and he doesnt feel anything. But another has doesnt have a dhea problem and it was just an excess of copper and a lack of zinc and he recovers due the zinc…
There are so many things that could be off especially with guys who are on TRT. This is about replacing things the body needs that are shown to be lacking through symptoms and then hopefully through testing. The more guys who have zinc deficiency symptoms and copper excess symptoms that get tested the better FOR US ALL.
Well that’s wonderful that you care so much about everyone else that your pushing your copper theory all over the place. To be brutally honest, it’s not everyone else’s symptoms you should be worried about, it’s YOURS. So why don’t you get rid of your copper as per your theory, and see how you feel? If you make a complete recovery then you can come back and lay out your protocol for people to follow if they wish. But until then, that’s all it is, a theory. People are sick of Doctors and sick of getting test after test after test. Until the theory is proved valid, it really doesn’t do anyone any good to do anything.
And, as you had mentioned in other posts, if someone has high copper, then they would have high estrogen too, correct? So i’m not sure what point your trying to make in your post about having high copper with low estrogen and being recovered. It’s contradicting.
Fix yourself, and others will follow. To get all up in arms about something that may or may not make sense, is just a waste of time.
THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THIS PARAGRAPH REALLY RUBS ME THE WRONG WAY (“fix yourself and others will follow”). THERE ARE A HANDFULL OF PEOPLE HERE WHO ARE SPENDING TIME AND MONEY TRYING TO GET BETTER WHILE OTHERS SIT BACK AND SEEM TO JUST SPONGE OF THE THEM. IVE SPENT WELL OVER $25 000 TRYING THINGS AND SHARING WHATEVER I CAN WITH THIS FORUM. WHY NOT GET OF YOUR BACKSIDE AND START TRYING TO GET BETTER YOURSELF AND START SHARING SOME INFORMATION INSTEAD OF BAGGING ME FOR TRYING? WHY NOT GO SEE DR CRISLER? WHY NOT KEEP TRYING THINGS THAT MAKE SENSE, SEEK OUT AND TALK TO GOOD DOCTORS. GET THE WORD OUT. LETS SEE IF WE CANT SEE SOME PATTERNS EMERGING HERE. BY SITTING BACK AND DOING NOTHING YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY QUITING. IM NOT QUITTING UNTIL I FIND THE ANSWER OR I DIE TRYING.
You’ve obviously never read many of my posts. I’m not waiting for anyone to do anything. I’m proactive and have gotten myself to the point of not feeling like utter shit every day. I’ve shared all of my experiences with this forum. What works, what doesn’t work, everything. All 900 and something posts worth. Sorry, your response was directed at the wrong guy.
Well if you are pro-active about it then my aplogies. And if you are, why is my sharing my experience and thoughts such a problem? From memory you went the natual route detoxing your body? The difference between the way you did and copper toxicity is that detoxing in general is aimied at a large portion of symptoms and illness. Copper toxicity is a specific problem that a few guys on this forum have the lab numbers and symptoms of. Im only commenting on the one where the shoe fits. High billirubin for example indicates copper toxicity I have been told by a very good doctor. I will also post a link on this on that copper thread.
I wish you all the best, and its not a case of who’s right or wrong for me, its about getting the majority of guys on this forum out of this mess.
It’s not a problem that you are sharing your results and possibly the results of others, as that’s what this forum is for. It’s in the way you go about doing it. It comes across as the new thing that everyone MUST get done and then you argue and struggle against people and try and MAKE them believe you. It’s not necessary. If this cures you, then you can come back and post your “recovery.” There’s no need to waste so much energy on it.
I’ve always said do what makes you feel better, because at the end of the day, that’s what it’s about, and nothing else. Can you live a productive, enjoyable life.
Actually, detoxing like I did doesn’t shoot for the symptoms but rather the cause of the symptoms, getting rid of them at their root, rather then simply treating symptoms alone. I also realized that it doesn’t fix ALL the issues caused by fin, but it does fix alot of them.
I posted my supplement regimine awhile back and many people were interested in it and I got slammed with PM’s because it gave me very good results and took me up another notch on the health ladder. The same was true for fasting and raw food diets. I wasn’t arguing with people that this is what they HAVE to do, and I didn’t get mad at the naysayers either. If they don’t want to do what someone else in their shoes is getting good results with, there’s nothing you can do about it and it’s pointless to argue. Simply share the info, and if they are so inclined, let them continue to suffer. They are the only ones who can help themselves by either doing some of the things listed on this site, or by taking themselves to one of the propecia literate physicians listed in the Doctors section.
To get worked up into a tailspin about some new theory, as Mew had pointed out in regards to some of the other theories that were thrown around here with abandone a few years back, it just makes people sigh and say, “here we go again.”
guys! stop this please. We are here to find some solution not to win an argument. If finding solution was that easy we would not be here for the last 10 years and if we continue this way we will be here for another 100 years too.
I have spent $2500.
I have spetn $10000
I will spend $40000
come on. it is not that simple. don’t waste ur money.
About a year ago I PMed Mew and proposed to setup a fund and then hire some scientists (by advertising about fin side effects in news papers and TV. It will serve many things. help get people 's attention, a proof what we are going through and finally get some university or pharma reseachers start the stud. I know Dr.Irwig is doing study but I need funded and concrete one.). We have been here around 1500 members. Each of us should donate $1000 each month. it will become $1500,000 each month ( we can adjust the money depending upon our number). Enough to launch any research. The problem is people come here, try to find solution and then leave the forum in disappointment. We don’t know where they are now. We are even not sure if they are alive. When people will deposit money they will stick with the forum and we will get momentum. How many consistant members do we have? maybe 30 or less and I am afraid in coming years we will loose more members. We have talked a lot. We have complained a lot. Now we need to be serious or wait till we are too old or get some serious ailments and eventually do not need any treatment for our current issues.
Only Awor or JN are serious members but it is not enough. We can not depend on one or two invidual guys and wait to see what comes out and if nothing serious comes out, which I am not very hopeful, then go back to our old business of making theories and claiming of having finding solutions in herbs or weired meds.
sorry for posting this in this guys recovery thread, but in response to the above:
though the fund thing isn’t a horrible idea - who will manage said fund, how do we keep said manager from spending the cash, how can other users that donate see what the current balance is of said fund, where and whom do we advertise to? It could easily take 50k alone to test one person for something complex like DNA methylation as awor pointed out. I’m just attempting to be realistic.
There are online donating programs - such as this one (bbnow.com/webnow/) but the above issues have to be worked out.
we will have to work out. There is solution to every thing. We can not simply sit back. Nothing can be perfect but we can make money handling as clear as possible. We will have to make a committee which wil look after these spedning. how members will be elected that might be debatable. there should be not just one person incharge, but a 5-6 member body which will approve any spending. We can have online balance where each member would be able to see total balance and his contribution.
You completely missed the point of my post. Completely. I’m not in “the business” of making claims of having found a solution. I simply post what works to make my life better, that’s it. Take it or leave it, I don’t care. I would hope people will do the same when they find something that works well for them. What we don’t need are wild posts about off the wall theories that have yet to be proven successfull by anyone in real life. Those we can do without. That’s all I’m saying.
Spstriken: for me personally, I’m functional. Not 100%, but functional enough to live my life on a satisfactory level. I wouldn’t contribute to such a fund because I would rather spend the money on my “magic herbs” that have changed my life for the better and proven to work FOR ME. I can tell you that you’re going to have a hell of a time collecting a grand from each person on this forum. I’ll tell you right now, it’s not gonna happen.
I come to this site everyday because it’s information garnished here that has led me back from the dead. You never know when someone will post something else usefull for all to use for their benefit. This site has done it’s job for me, and continues to do so. For that I’m thankful. I just wish the stuff that works for me worked for everyone else. But then again, I can bet that more then half the people never went and bought 10 T boosters and cycled them properly with a strict diet and exercise program for more then a month or so. So for some, even though the information is right in front of their face, they still wont do anything constructive with it because of preconceived notions of some kind. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
Cdnuts, Im not trying to ram anything down anyones throat. I’m simply posting about copper toxicity When the labs show it and if the symptoms fit! I don’t know where you guys get this idea?
Also when Mew comments about a post, he does so as a moderator. So is he just disagreeing with the concept of copper toxicity/zinc deficiency (fine), or is saying as moderator I’m telling you you can’t post that (when he says stuff like “enough of this tripe already”)?
Also if somone posts reasons why copper toxicity is quakery, why then can’t I defend my theory that it could be for a few of us which leads to healthy CONSTRUCTIVE critism and good robust conversation?
And too many guys here are saying that the copper/zinc theory is without a recovery?? Or not backed by science??? Zinc deficient is all over the Internet. And we have already had one recovery!
I will never ram this idea down anyones throat but I will defend it if people write it off as quakery without a logical explanation. And this not to prove I’m right or wrong but because I firmly beleive it’s in the forum members best interests to look into this especially if they are showing labs indicative of copper toxicity or showing signs of zinc deficiency. Look at old mate the other day! He read the copper toxicity thread and took it upon himself to go and get a blood test for copper and low and behold his copper is astronomically high!!! This my friends, is a big step forward!!
