Soya is helping massively but why?


#1

Hello,

Only a few days ago did I post my PFS story, I am very new to all of this and wondering if anyone can give me an insight to what is happening internally when I eat soy.

Bit of background, I am vegan, have been for over 10 years, long before the whole SJW’s took control and made it a laughing stock. Anyway I consume a lot of soya.

One noticeable coincidence that I haven’t been able to explain is how soy helps with my symptoms which are
-dry hands
-hot flushes

  • groin ache

Just to side point, before PFS I was able to not eat soy for months without any adverse effects, all that is below is after PFS.

My dry hands are a result of PFS but anytime I consume soya the dryness calms down little bit and over the last week I have pretty much stopped my soya intake which during this time my groin has been aching. I was hungry before, put some soya burgers in the oven and while I was eating them the pain went away.

I don’t want to seem crazy here but for me both examples are far too coincidental for me. Just have no idea why. Now I understand that soya acts like a fake oestrogen but I have had my bloods done for it and they came back fine.

Anyone else experienced similar ?


Very significant findings regarding PFS and the 5ar enzyme
#2

Yes, lots of people. @borax (a friend here) particularly will be able to comment on his experience with soy.

PFS patients have confirmed overexpression of the androgen receptor. I personally believe it’s very possible this is driving the condition. The consistent observation over the history of PFS is that antiandrogenic substances can (often temporarily) help symptoms, while often no response or an intolerance to testosterone is described. I posted about this the other day here. The problem is, this is what triggered the situation in the first place and often can worsen the condition after an initial improvement. I notice you’ve described this yourself with your continual use of finasteride and addition of other DHT blockers in pursuit of some therapeutic relief.

Soy contains isoflavones including Genistein which will reduce the expression of the androgen receptor. It therefore stands to sense that this will relieve symptoms in the short term. I personally have not had any experience with soy since PFS, as although I was a vegetarian for 16 years before it I changed my diet immediately to some of the diet and supplement recommendations you’ll see across the forum. They either didn’t help me or exacerbated my symptoms, but since I’ve not resumed any soy due to concern of making my (extremely severe) PFS any worse.


#3

Hello Axolotl, this is very interesting to know. I wasn’t aware this happened. On the one hand I am happy to see the symptoms dissipate somewhat but at the same time I do not want to be dependent on anything anymore and replacing propecia with soy just isn’t an option for me. What do you suggest? avoid all soy and ride out (if it ever rides out) the symptoms or stay on it while my body is readjusting to life without propecia?

Carl


#4

Hi Carl, it’s really hard to give practical advice as you can imagine; although I think it’s pretty well demonstrable that what I’ve just mentioned is the case, the fact is I nor anybody else can tell you why this is happening, as much as I’d like to be able to help everybody (myself included). If it is the overexpression of the AR, that is meant to return to normal expression upon the return of androgens, and that isn’t the case as demonstrated by the italian study.

In terms of my personal opinions on what I’d do…I’m in quite a different position in that I am far and away at the extreme end of PFS and it took a 0.25mg dose to do it. I had immediate impotence/brain zaps and crashed two days later into hell and it’s wrecked my life. I therefore would assume I need to be a lot more careful than most. From what I read of your quite substantial use of antiandrogen substances that you aren’t having a catastrophic crash reaction so I wouldn’t panic or anything…But in your boat I still would probably would avoid all of it.

If it’s any help I had intense hot flushes during my crash and they went after about 3 months. They came back when I crashed myself with pain medication, but then went again. On the whole they were one of the few things to wear off.


#5

Hello Axolotl,

Firstly thank you for your lengthly responses, they are really insightful and for someone who is pretty terrified right now about what is happening to me they are pretty reassuring!

Inregards to being far and away on the spectrum, do you have a link that lists your story, I would be interested to hear it because getting this from only one small dose seems really unfair. At least with myself I had 5 years of nice hair and I am to blame for what has happened as the additional AA were not necessary and I could have fucked up my body for life!

I think I could cope with this for another 3 months, I have dealt with it so far for about 8.

The one thing that concerns me is further hair loss (not that I give a damn about being bald now) but I had a HT in the front in 2014 which is amazing but now that I am not on any medication I am guaranteed to lose more hair on top which will leave a weird island of transplanted hair. Oh well life is a bitch!


#6

Thank you, you’re right…It’s very unfair. Absolutely nobody should go through any measure of this, but I have been extraordinarily unlucky. I was so happy the day before. I miss my life and my soulmate so terribly. Here is my story.

You may well have heard but I’d say it’s worth looking into toppik if you’re concerned about hair loss. It is fibres that help give the appearance of thicker hair in thinner regions and it’s quite effective - I didn’t really have significant hair loss (before) and was trying to prevent it as my hair is long. Wish I’d known about that instead of this wonderful drug…


#7

I used soy flour for a few days/weeks in the past when I initially crashed. It led to a near complete resolution of all symptoms. No more anhedonia, better sleep, better gym performance, penile sensitivity back, morning erections back, libido increase, etc.

Although like axolotl says, no one knows what causes PFS for sure, but it is peculiar that many of my symptoms get dramatically better near immediately with substances that inhibit AR expression and get much worse with substances that cause expression to rise.


#8

@borax
Hy dear I have very bad numbness.
It’s good to hear that it’s not permanent.
I have it more than a year and it’s worsening. Month by month.
Do you have visible veins on penis too?
Does you penis hurt after ejaculation?
How you were taking soy flour?
What dosage and timing?
I think our problem is related to androgen.
I have very high testosterone 1128 ng/dl
range (300-800)

Any thing that increase androgen make me worse.
Especially increase in androgen through inhibition of estrogen receptors like clomid.
Which makes me think that maybe there is something with estrogen receptors too. As some people improved with licorice too. Which works on estrogen receptors.
And now this soy thing as we know soy also mimic as estrogen.


#9

Yeah Sunny, I have veins and it does hurt sometimes after ejaculation but not very often anymore. There was a period it hurt more than not but not anymore.

I took it both raw and as pancakes, I don’t recall the exact dosage but if I recall correctly it was 2 tablespoons. Going down this pathway however is quite risky and if I were to do it all over again I wouldn’t. Because I speculate it works similar to Milk Thistle (which @awor took for a short period of time experiencing drastic improvements followed by a crash) by inhibiting the AR, so it might lead to issues long term as it did for him. For myself, I cannot say for sure I was worsened, but I did develop curvature and some loss in size.

My testosterone levels initially were low, but like yours mine are also quite high now and I have similar responses to you with regards to androgens.

Do you have any loss in length/girth with good erection quality?


#10

@borax
girth has decreased a lot, about length I cant say much may be a little loss.
My veins hurt after ejaculation alot also swells after ejaculation.
My genitals feels cold too often.
Now I almost never achieve good erection always less than 70% rarely 80-90%.
My numbness is very bad, how is your numbness??
Mine is almost 10%.

When I was trying licorice root my semen almost become normal. Volume increased , ball size increased, small increase in libido,
I might try it again along with soy flour. Because increasing androgen crashed me hard.


#12

Not sure if it’s a good idea but please report if you decide to go on with it.

Why did you stop licorice root?


#13

I stopped taking licorice because Ramadan started in which we fast intermittently for 29 or 30 days. I will start it soon probably.

Do you have dandruff too ?
Or tinnitus?
There is a guy at swole source who recovered by using licorice.


#14

I am aware, I’m muslim too and fasted for a few days. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to fast as much as the previous years because of PFS. Anyway, Eid Mubarak, and let me know how licorice goes as well.


#15

sorry, I missed the part about my symptoms. I don’t have tinnitus I believe, just a short period with intense ringing every day or so. It isn’t very bothersome, just slightly concerning. I don’t have much dandruff but my hair is falling out faster.


#16

Eid Mubarak to you too brother.


#17

hey did you test iron at all? or iron related things? i wonder if it is the iron content? or red blood cell count? i was thinking about another post, someone mentioned they ate tofu and they felt better, but didn’t know why.

i looked up the iron levels of soy and tofu, both have really high iron content, soy is like 150% or something of the daily diet.

how do you feel with dark chocolate or red meat? both have high iron as well.

i’m starting to suspect the high estradiol or high estrogen that can sometimes be present in those with PFS is messing with the iron homestasis in the body. this came out to be true when i search iron and estrogen online, but i still don’t quite understand the connection.

see this:
Estrogen deficiency has been regarded as the main causative factor in menopausal symptoms and diseases. Here, we show that although estrogen decreases by 90%, a concurrent but inverse change occurs in iron levels during menopausal transition. For example, levels of serum ferritin are increased by two- to threefold from before menopause to after menopause. This observation has led us to hypothesize that, in addition to estrogen deficiency, increased iron as a result of menopause could be a risk factor affecting the health of postmenopausal women. Further studies on iron and menopause are clinically relevant and may provide novel therapeutic treatments. Antioxid. Redox Signal. 11, 2939–2943.

At the systemic level, an interaction of estrogen with iron has long been suspected**. This is exemplified by a concurrent but inverse change in estrogen and iron levels during menopausal transition, with high estrogen and low iron in young women but low estrogen and high iron in older postmenopausal women (4).** Furthermore, a time-dependent increase in iron stores has been shown in oral contraceptive users when compared with nonusers (34–36). The increased iron stores are said to be attributable primarily to reduced volume in menstrual blood loss. However, this cannot explain the animal data showing a significant rise in body iron stores and uptake in estrogen-treated ovariectomized rats, because rats do not have menses (37, 38). Clearly, there is a direct link between estrogen and systemic iron metabolism, although the molecular mechanism remains unclear.

another blood work that was very interesting to me was this on the forum:
Total iron binding capacity - 43.4 (45 - 70)

i dont know what “iron binding capacity” is, but it sounds like something that should not be low, if we are indeed low in iron due to high estrogen.

So what does this all say? First of all, the medical establishment is wrong in saying estrogen is “good for you”, they seem to make the connection that iron stores go down when estrogen is high. But I think our estrogen is high in a PFS person, so maybe the iron stores are going down too low due to the high estrogen.

Am I saying go take iron pills? Hell no. Absolutely not. Do not do this AT ALL. But I’d say get the recommended amount through food. Too much iron is a very bad thing. Very very bad. This is all theory. I don’t even know if that is what is causing the issue to be fixed.

But until the PFS is solved , MAYBE enough iron throughout the day is more important than we previous thought.

AGAIN, all theory… AGAIN DO NOT TAKE IRON PILLS… I know you are desperate, but it’s just a thought.


#18

[…] The stimulatory effect of certain phospholipids on 5a-reductase
activity has been reported previously (Ichihara & Tanaka, 1987;
Cooke & Robaire, 1985). We also found that L-alpha-phosphatidylcholine
and L-alpha-phosphatidylethanolamine can stimulate 5a-reductase.
Phospholipids may affect the conformation of 5a-reductase. […]

Significant levels of Amadori-phosphatidylethanolamine products have been found in a wide variety of foods such as chocolate, soybean milk, infant formula, and other processed foods. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylethanolamine)


#19

Hello guys,

Thank you all for your thoughts on this. I will definitely look into everyones suggestions (maybe use a dictionary to interpret Andreas) :slight_smile:

For me the oestrogen connection is far too coincidental. Anything estrogenic foods cause a complete reversal of dry hands, eggs, dairy, beer and soya but if I avoid these then the dryness persists.

The dryness is very odd though, its only on the palms of my hands and looks like I have dipped them in powder, it gets very dry powdery in the creases and especially where my fingers fold, often just on the one hand with the other seeming normal. Moreover its not dry, I just don’t know how else to explain it, my fingers don’t feel tight, there is no cracking or bleeding just what looks like dry skin, if I was my hands the dryness goes away completely and leaves skin that looks untouched. I always thought dry skin meant that my skin would peal off but that is not the case. I often suspect if it is dry skin at all