Some thoughts about potential treatment options for accutane side effects

I have some ideas about potential ways to treat PAS that I thought I would share. I think they might be useful in helping us to more accurately model the etiology of PAS so that we’re at least not shooting in the dark about this

First of all, accutane is very very similar to retinoic acid. While it does not directly activate the same pathways its metabolites may be able to. In case you werent aware, retinoic acid is basically a derivative of vitamin A. Unsurprisingly PAS symptoms closely resemble the symptoms of hypervitaminosis A, which is congruent with the idea that accutane is basically a very potent form of vitamin A. Why is this important? The reason why its important is because it helps narrow down the potential ways that accutane may have damaged people. In order to further narrow this down lets consider one of the most common side effects related to accutane which is depression.

The fact that accutane commonly causes depression suggests that accutane strongly affects the neurotransmitters/the brain in some way. In what way does accutane affect the neurotransmitters/the brain though? Well, depression (along with anhedonia which is another common accutane side effect) is commonly due to dopamine dysregulation. Therefore keeping this in mind, we can assume that accutane’s primary mechanism of leaving nasty side effects might be its effect on the dopamine system. From this we can infer that retinoic acid (which accutane is a form of) can have negative effects on dopamine functioning

Upon searching for connections between retinoic acid and dopamine receptors I found the following:

Dopamine is a neuromodulator involved in the control of key physiological functions. Dopamine-dependent signal transduction is activated through the interaction with membrane receptors of the seven-transmembrane domain G protein-coupled family. Among them, dopamine D2 receptor is highly expressed in the striatum and the pituitary gland as well as by mesencephalic dopaminergic neurons. Lack of D2 receptors in mice leads to a locomotor parkinsonian-like phenotype and to pituitary tumors. The D2 receptor promoter has characteristics of a housekeeping gene. However, the restricted expression of this gene to particular neurons and cells points to a strict regulation of its expression by cell-specific transcription factors. We demonstrate here that the D2 receptor promoter contains a functional retinoic acid response element. Furthermore, analysis of retinoic acid receptor-null mice supports our finding and shows that in these animals D2 receptor expression is reduced. This finding assigns to retinoids an important role in the control of gene expression in the central nervous system.

Retinoids are known to bind to retinoid receptors in the brain and to exert effects on gene transcription. Retinoid receptors are concentrated in limbic areas that have been associated with depression, including the amygdala, prefrontal cortex, and hippocampus. Retinoids also influence neurochemical systems that have been implicated in depression, in particular dopamine but to some extent serotonin and norepinephrine.

Its apparent that the connection between retinoic acid and dopamine is real, and it has been established; although I dont think that many PAS sufferers are fully aware of this. My overall impression is that the PAS community is not yet very well organized, as such the PAS community doesnt have the same resources that the PFS community has in terms of researching and clearly delineating the exact nature of their problem. As a result of this there seems to be lacking a clear consensus about what PAS is even caused by and because of this its difficult to model any potential treatments for it. With that being said, I feel pretty confident in stating that the most likely cause of PAS is probably dysregulation of the dopamine system due to the usage of potent, synthetic forms of retinoic acid (accutane). More specifically though, the root cause of the dopamine system dysregulation itself might be due to the retinoic acid receptors themselves malfunctioning, this is what in turn is causing the dopamine receptors to malfunction. Its important to realize this because it gives us a more specific target to focus on than just clumsily focusing on the dopamine receptors themselves. This was mentioned in one of the above quotes that I mentioned, although it was really easy to miss:

We demonstrate here that the D2 receptor promoter contains a functional retinoic acid response element. Furthermore, analysis of retinoic acid receptor-null mice supports our finding and shows that in these animals D2 receptor expression is reduced. This finding assigns to retinoids an important role in the control of gene expression in the central nervous system.

We now have a more clearly defined target to focus on when it comes to treating PAS. Before I go any farther I want to clarify what I think has happened to the retinoic acid receptors; IMO I think that they basically got burned out/overstimulated by accutane. Its basically analogous to how PFS guys got their androgen receptors silenced by a flood of DHT, except for PAS guys their retinoic acid receptors got continually exposed to accutane metabolites (which is a highly potent synthetic for of retinoic acid) which is what ended up silencing/burning out their retinoic acid receptors which in turn screwed up their dopamine system.

Keeping that in mind, lets focus on things that can help us to modulate the retinoic acid receptor in some way. So far I have thought of two different approaches for this:

1.the direct usage of retinoic acid receptor antagonists to help resensitize the retinoic acid receptors.
-the only problem I have with this approach is that the only retinoic acid receptor antagonists Ive found are research chemicals which im a little bit leery about. Preferably I would prefer to find some natural retinoic acid receptor antagonist (if it even exists), but barring that I suppose any form of retinoic acid receptor antagonist (synthetic or not) would have some theoretical utility in helping to resensitize the retinoic acid receptors which in turn would reregulate and normalize dopamine functioning in PAS guys

2.lowering vitamin A (retinoic acid) and inducing a state of hypovitaminosis A which in theory should help resensitize the retinoic acid receptors
-It was difficult for me to think of an easy way to induce a vitamin A deficiency. It can be easily done, but it involves months (?) of following a highly restricted diet. While this is still doable, I think its not really preferable. In lieu of following a highly restricted diet to induce a vitamin A deficiency it occurred to me that maybe there might be some workaround which could be used instead. While I was thinking about this I remembered that iron deficiencies are commonly related to vitamin A deficiencies in some way:

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/132/12/3607/4712131

Although marginal VA deficiency did not exacerbate indices of poor iron status during iron deficiency, iron deficiency was associated with lower plasma retinol and elevated liver VA concentrations. These results are consistent with an impaired mobilization of liver retinol during iron deficiency as well as multiple alterations in iron metabolism.

So, as it turns out if you have an iron deficiency then your body has a hard time mobilizing retinol (the prohormone of retinoic acid) and as a result it just sits in your liver instead of going systemic. Thus for all intents and purposes, an iron deficiency can induce a condition that is very similar to a vitamin A deficiency. So, now we have to figure out how to induce an iron deficiency; fortunately this is a little bit easier than figuring out how to induce a vitamin A deficiency. There are two methods of doing this:

1.give blood frequently

  • How much iron do I lose when donating blood or platelets? Each time you donate blood , you lose between 220-250 mg of iron . If you donate a Power Red, you lose twice that amount, about 470 mg of iron . It may take up to 24-30 weeks for your body to replace the iron lost through a blood donation.

2.take high doses of turmeric for an extended period of time (a few months?)

A 66-year-old physician treated himself for an osteoarthritis flare after steroids with six turmeric extract capsules (538 mg) daily, to help with inflammation. During this time, his hemoglobin never rose above 12 and his iron and ferritin levels were consistent with iron deficiency. Upper and lower endoscopy and Hemoccult™ studies were negative. Two weeks after stopping the turmeric and continuing his usual iron supplement, his hemoglobin had returned to normal, with normalizing iron studies. Turmeric was associated with significant iron deficiency anemia, consistent with the binding of available iron in the gut and the prevention of absorption. This resolved after the turmeric was stopped, consistent with animal studies.

In theory, if you induce an iron deficiency then it should lower the amounts of circulating retinol in the body which in turn would be less able to convert into retinoic acid thus preventing the stimulation of the retinoic acid receptors and subsequently helping to resensitize them. That being said, im not sure how safe a prolonged iron deficiency would be, for this reason I would prefer to find a more direct way of reducing vitamin A levels in the body

Alternately you could try a different approach by trying to prevent the retinol from converting into retinoic acid, but I havent done as much research into figuring out ways to do this. Im sure its probably pretty easy though, maybe easier and faster than giving blood/taking turmeric for a few months.

Lastly I want to add that maybe its not simply about resensitizing the retinoic acid receptors, the reason I say this is because apparently the retinoic acid receptors also play an important role in the control of gene expression in the central nervous system. This can be seen in the quote I posted earlier:

We demonstrate here that the D2 receptor promoter contains a functional retinoic acid response element. Furthermore, analysis of retinoic acid receptor-null mice supports our finding and shows that in these animals D2 receptor expression is reduced. This finding assigns to retinoids an important role in the control of gene expression in the central nervous system.

If this is the case then maybe modifying the levels of retinoic acid in the body or manipulating the retinoic acid receptors themselves can possibly help flip back on certain genes in the central nervous system which in turn could help reactivate normal dopamine functioning the body. In my opinion this might be an equally important aspect along with the retinoic acid receptors interfacing with the dopamine receptors.

Either way, I think this is an interesting angle to consider treating PAS from; while I dont know how effective these hypothetical treatments would be, at the very least we now have a more concrete idea of where to start when it comes to treating PAS. Perhaps we can think of other ways to treat PAS too given this clearer understanding of what might cause PAS

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This is a really great post. This should almost be pinned. To make a point.

Replace the androgen receptor with the retinoic acid receptor.
Resensitize the retinoic acid receptor instead of the androgen receptor.
Avoid foods high in Vitamin A instead of 5ar inhibiting foods.
Look at genes related to Vitamin A and how retinoic acid can regulate a magnitude of gene expression, the CNS being one example.
Look at genes related to retinoic acid metabolism as to why we might have been more susceptible.

You see some Accutane guys have had some similar thoughts for the past couple of decades as well.
This isnt a slight to anyone or their efforts btw, im not saying I know any better.
Most of us know enough at this point to be right on some level and probably will be.

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Don’t forget it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4452429

@skorpio88 could you do a great thing and fill out the survey, please?

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Its worth mentioning that as many people know, accutane is a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor. In fact, retinoic acid in general functions as a 5ari. I think that PAS is partially a mix of PFS (in the sense that you have 5ari induced dysregulation of the body) but also it has its own unique set of symptoms too which are caused by the aforementioned effect of accutane on the retinoic acid receptors. This is reinforced by the fact that accutane users seems to report depression as a side effect more frequently compared to propecia users, at least this is my impression (correct me if im wrong about this). For this reason even though PAS and PFS do share a lot of overlap due to the 5ari factor, PAS still has a distinct aspect about it which must be differently addressed.

here is something interesting I found:

https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.10.9.8801176

Retinoids play an important role in development, differentiation, and homeostasis. The discovery of retinoid receptors belonging to the superfamily of nuclear ligand-activated transcriptional regulators has revolutionized our molecular understanding as to how these structurally simple molecules exert their pleiotropic effects. Diversity in the control of gene expression by retinoid signals is generated through complexity at different levels of the signaling pathway.

I wonder what this paragraph is supposed to mean by homeostasis? Its not very clear about this but I wonder if its referring to homeostasis in the sense that retinoids influence your body in terms of helping crucial systems (dopamine, androgen, etc) function in a regular, norrmal way. It makes sense that abnormally high levels of retinoic acid might somehow create an abnormal state of homeostasis which PAS guys seem to be suffering from. I did find the following which I think is really useful to read:

In particular I found this to be quite informative:

What does retinoic acid do? In
adults, vitamin A and its retinoid
derivatives play significant roles
in a number of processes, such
as vision, learning and memory,
immune function, reproduction as
well as the maintenance of epithelial
function and differentiation. In the
hippocampus, retinoic acid plays
important physiological roles in
synaptic plasticity, learning and
memory, and adult neurogenesis.
In the retina, retinoic acid acts as a
light-signaling neuromodulator and
regulates gap junction-mediated
coupling of retinal neurons. It has
also been implicated in the
control of sleep and the circadian
clock.

Basically it appears that retinoic acid influences nearly every body system that is commonly reported to be negatively affected by accutane. I think that dysfunction of things involving retinoic acid is the smoking gun for PAS. If you can figure out how to effectively manipulate retinoic acid interactions/retinoic acid receptors then it would go a long way towards normalizing the various body systems that accutane screwed up.

I wonder if finasteride somehow disrupts the retinoic acid system as well? I havent been able to find anything specifically talking about it, but it would be interesting to find out if retinoic acid dysfunction is involved in PFS too or if its only limited to PAS.

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All of these RA and RA-focused theories have been tried, and some tested, since the days of the All Things Male Accutane sub-forum, and Ragforum days of the 2000s.

I think it makes much more sense to focus on the very similar symptom profile across patient groups and the overlapping mechanisms of action of their respective poisons, rather than observed effects in the majority of people who tolerate these drugs well, without long-term damage.

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Can you provide some links? Are you saying that people actually tried inducing vitamin A deficiency or used retinoic acid receptor antagonists? Ive browsed both of the forums youve mentioned and never came across anything like that before. I only saw people mentioning that hypervitaminosis A was a possible issue but never saw people actually propose ways of acting on this theory. The only thing ive ever found was people talking about using dopamine agonists which is completely different than what im proposing

also, I think its a serious mistake to totally conflate PAS and PFS. Youre doing PAS sufferers a major disservice by doing so. PAS and PFS do overlap in some ways via the 5ARI route and this should be investigated but there is a separate facet of PAS which is different than PFS and needs to be addressed in that way

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Weren’t you on the solvepfs forum under ihatefin88?

I’m interested to links too

yeah, that was me

Hey Skorpio, I’ll have to dig in to all of this later. But quickly do you know if former meth users have similar symptoms to PAS suffers? I would think they would have the most “burned out” dopamine receptors of anyone. I don’t recall ever feeling stimulated on Accutane. In order to desensitize dopamine receptors, wouldn’t I have had to experienced overstimulation?

There is a bit of a misconception here. The problem is not with the dopamine receptors. That is not necessarily the issue here. The problem is rather with the retinoic acid receptors themselves, those are what are “burned out”. My impression is that people have been aware of the role that retinoic acid plays in PAS however they assumed that because retinoic acid affects the dopamine receptor that the dopamine receptor itself is the issue, however im making the argument that its not necessarily the dopamine receptor itself thats the problem, rather its the retinoic acid receptor which is the real issue behind the dopamine receptors not working properly.

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Ok and you think retinoic acid receptors would be methylated and might be able to be reset by retinoic acid deprivation? If you are aware of where Accutane victims congregate these days I think the most time-sensitive and immediately useful thing we could all be doing right now is recruiting more PAS victims for the survey. That’s the only way we are going to get research performed and research is the only way we will get therapy.

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It’s not just retinoic acid receptors, it’s organic brain damage. Accutane is the complete opposite of stimulating. On it (and years after) everything felt dull and lifeless.

Yes, I think there is some sort of dysfunction with the retinoic acid receptors; perhaps we can fix or at least improve the function of the retinoic acid receptors by inducing a state of vitamin A deficiency or by using retinoic acid receptor antagonists.

I have no idea where PAS people congregate these days, my impression is that they’re scattered all over the place. That being said, im extremely skeptical about relying on researchers and the therapy they could offer. Honestly it just seems like a really long, drawn out process which never really results in much. Im not saying that people shouldn’t try to enlist researchers to help us out on this, but personally im not interested in trying to get their help myself. I plan on continuing to experiment on myself without relying on any researchers; thats the only thing thats helped me recover somewhat so far. Im not getting any younger, Im just not willing to wait years for researchers to come through, you know what I mean?

There are huge numbers of people out there who don’t even know it but have been rendered asexual by this drug and we need to be getting them to fill out the survey. There are almost no Accutane respondents right now.

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I think that there are couple of different components of PAS. Chiefly I suspect there are two things going on:

1.retinoic acid receptor dysfunction

2.post 5ARI syndrome

Accutane directly affects the retinoic acid receptors and it’s incidentally a 5ARI, this is why it can cause both retinoic acid receptor problems AND possibly induce post 5ARI syndrome. Furthermore, I think that each PAS victim is probably different. Some PAS victims may have more issues related to retinoic acid receptor dysfunction, other PAS victims may have more post 5ARI syndrome related problems and some unlucky PAS victims probably have a significant degree of both types of problems.

As for organic brain damage, im not ruling this out at all; however I want to focus more on things that we can actually affect. Im not really sure how brain damage can be fixed, therefore im not too concerned about it. That being said, your observation that things feel dull and lifeless sounds more like an issue with neurotransmitter dysfunction as opposed to literal brain damage. Lots of non-PAS victims (PFS and PSSD) have similar complaints and to my knowledge finasteride and assorted SSRIs don’t cause brain damage. Furthermore I have heard of people recovering from a dull and lifeless feeling, so this too suggests that the effect is not necessarily permanent like what would be the case if they had brain damage

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This is unfortunate of course, Ive always wondered why PAS awareness never quite took off.

My opinion is that it is because most people take it when they are teens, so they never have the experience of being an adult before being asexual-ized. In other words, when people take propecia, they do it at an age where they are already balding and therefore have had a decade or more experience being an adult. When a guy has 10 years of being sexual under his belt, it’s plain as day both that there is a problem and what the cause was when he takes a drug and loses his sexuality. People taking Accutane literally take it during puberty so they literally have basically no sexual history to base comparison. When they notice they are less sexual than other adults, they’ll just figure they were born asexual.

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this is exactly it. This is my experience as well, I got “taned” when I was 15… I took propecia to fix the hairloss triggered by accutane when I was 17. I didn’t realize that accutane had even caused me to have sexual problems until I was 21. I genuinely thought I just had a naturally low libido until I realized much later on that my problems were caused by accutane (and then later on propecia)