Some stories, Fin damage theories (liver) from Askdocweb

General Discussion
#1

askdocweb.com/propecia10.html
Subj: A medical student’s view of Propecia
Date: 1/28/2005

Its a joke to refer to propecia as an innocent drug for “treating” any stage of hairloss. After having tried almost any known product for the above condition I decided to jump to propecia knowing of the adverse effects on libido. Nevertheless even being a student of medicine I was suprised of the immediate bad results. Took the drug for 2 months, in which I lost all my sex drive, started having severe pain in lower part of penis, volume of ejaculate was reduced, size of penis shrunk about 2 inches and still after 18 months haven’t seen a slight change in these conditions despite discontinuing the product.

So have most of my friends who used it all over the world. Most of them live on viagra and other stimulants ever since having used as little as 10 propecia pills. Problem with propecia is that in most cases it damages liver cells and messes up your metabolism in such a way that you are no longer considered to be a normal human being but just a senseless individual. Conclusion of most pathophysiologists and pharmacologists I have visited was that it’s impossible to use propecia without having effects on your manhood.

The greatest problem of all however is that the drugs you need to treat the effects of propecia on sex drive are too expensive and their use is complicated and quite long term, and have nothing to do with viagra, as the main target of propecia is damaging the production of liver metabolites and damaging of receptors as well as several important precursors and not interfering with your circulatory system directly.
George

askdocweb.com/propecia17.html
Subj: Long term damage from Propecia
Date: 7/5/2005

I had a great hairloss problem since 18. I also was very sexually active and quite horny individual up to the age of 20. I found out about finasteride(propecia) and its potentials in an endocrinology meeting in which we were basically told that the depth of its side effects was really unknown since they only knew at that point that the substance would permanently inactivate 5-alpha reductace and would cause amongst other symptoms a series of hepatic [liver] inflammatory changes. Off course I was so desperate to try this new drug to improve my deteriorating hair condition that I didn’t really take into account potential side effects.

After 2 months of usage, I got great results on my hair, yet 6 years later and at the age of 26 I cannot recall a single spontaneous or morning erection, my genitalia have shrunk and my sex life has been destroyed irreversibly. Recently and after having been tested for any possible reason for this sudden impotence I found out that the number of dht receptors throughout my body was minimal and that was the cause of all my problems. It seems however that there is no scientific treatment available.

Yet the problem is that the drug really did a nasty job. Since I was ok around 6 months after dropping it, I never really understood how the adverse side effects rebounded since I never ever used anything else to combat hair loss. If you want my advice, don’t risk your sex life for anything.
Nicolas

#2

Some thoughts on the above, and my own experience…

I had an experience almost a year ago (10 months off the drug), where for only the second time in my life since taking and quitting Finasteride, my testicles and penis swelled back up to normal size for 2 days, and I regained some libido (the 1st time was 2 weeks after I quit, only lasted 5 days, then T levels crashed and things shrivelled up, lost libido).

This second time was when I got Norwalk virus last summer. When I came down with Norwalk, I was vomitting profusely for a day straight, had fever and became severely dehydrated. I was puking so much I was puking up bile constantly, I’ve never puked so much in my life, every 10-20 minutes.

In other words – my liver was working overtime during this virus… producing bile, in essence “cleaning itself out” (in my opinion). By the 2nd day, as my body began to recover, my penis and nuts began to lose size and return to their post-Finasteride “shrunken state” and my libido went downhill quickly.

So why am I posting this?

Well, it occured to me after reading the above two stories that the liver may have a bigger role in our post-Finasteride issues than we might give credit.

Having read some studies on the liver’s role in the metabolism of 5AR-reduced metabolites ( propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=600 )… PLUS the two stories above, and my OWN experience with the liver being “agitated” from a virus… it just seems like there must be a connection here, somehow, somewhere.

Now, I’m not much of a new-age person or one to fall for cheesy health claims, quack theories or supplement products… but perhaps trying a (natural) liver cleanse wouldn’t hurt.

After my experience with the Norwalk virus and puking so much bile, and seeing things return to somewhat normal for 2 days, it tells me that somehow my liver’s involvement in steroid metabolism and 5AR production was affected by Finasteride, and that this needs to be investigated further as a possible “treatment” area… perhaps the liver really does need to be “cleansed” as much as possible, after having metabolised that drug.

Anyway, as crazy as it sounds, thought I would mention it… comments are appreciated.

2 Likes
#3

Yeah, I was pursuing the liver metabolism idea for a while some time back. Some of what I wrote is located here:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … highlight=

One article I reference states that:

“CYP3A4 inhibitors appear to have the potential for affecting the activity of finasteride”

Also, I cite a study which demonstates that grapefruit juice in fact inhibits CYP3A4 enzymes in the liver.

In another post I asked whether anyone consumed a lot of grapefruit juice or red wine while on fin. J89 responded that his doctor had in fact put him on grapefruit juice for a liver condition during the time that he was also taking finasteride. But he was the only one who responded as such. My thought was, by inhibiting these enzymes, finasteride could continually build up in one’s system until damage occurs (not sure how exactly that would work, but it seems to make sense).

One counterargument might point out that many people seem to have immediate problems with the drug (within a week of starting to use, I believe, in some cases). Perhaps these people were just highly-sensitive to the said liver damage in the first place?

The point is that two examples of food products that anyone might very well be consuming on a regular basis (grapefruit juice and red wine), have the ability to profoundly alter our ability to metabolize finasteride. And again, for what it’s worth, it was the opinion of researchers studying finasteride’s mechanism of action that such interactions “appear to have the potential” of having an effect.

#4

Continuing with the liver theory connection – and maybe I’m grasping for straws, but who cares, it’s just theorizing – since Finasteride is extensively metabolized in the liver (and is also a potent inhibitor of both C19 androgen and C21 5 alpha-steroid metabolism in the liver), and since members have reported elevated AST/ALT and other levels, as well as the FDA having noted increased liver enzymes from Finasteride usage – perhaps liver damage (cirrhosis) could be causing some issues with the metabolism of sex steroids? Has anyone been checked for cirrhosis?

Also consider the fact that Finasteride is a Testosterone analogue, and that anabolic steroid abuse has been associated with liver disease.

Anabolic Steroid (Oral Route, Parenteral Route)
mayoclinic.com/health/drug-i … n/DR602077

…Side Effects
“Tumors of the liver, liver cancer, or peliosis hepatis, a form of liver disease, have occurred during long-term, high-dose therapy with anabolic steroids. Although these effects are rare, they can be very serious and may cause death. Discuss these possible effects with your doctor.”

Compensated Cirrhosis
hepctrust.org.uk/The+Liver/C … rhosis.htm

… Endocrine Disorders (Hormonal disorders)
"The liver metabolizes the sexual hormones. If it can not do this properly this may lead to:

[b]- Loss of sexual desire.

  • In men: a fall in testosterone levels, reduced testicle size, enlarged tender breasts, impotence. [/b]"

springerlink.com/content/634475m3v3417221/

We investigated the clinical and laboratory findings of hypogonadism and feminization in male patients with viral or alcoholic cirrhosis to determine whether chronic liver disease plays a primary role in the development of sexual dysfunction and hormonal changes.

Two groups of male patients with liver cirrhosis (23 alcoholic, 33 viral) age-and Child’s gradematched, and 20 age-matched healthy men, as a control group, were included in this study. Clinical signs of hypogonadism and feminization were examined in the cirrhotic patients.

Follicle-stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, prolactin, testosterone, free testosterone, estradiol, androstenedione, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, and sex hormone-binding globulin were estimated in all groups. Seminal fluid was also analyzed in 7 alcoholic and 15 viral cirrhotics.

Serum levels of estradiol, androstenedione, and sex hormone-binding globulin were significantly higher, and free testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels were significantly lower in both groups of cirrhotics compared with the control group.

Child’s C patients in both groups of cirrhotics were found to have higher estradiol and lower free testosterone levels than child’s A and B patients. Alcoholic and viral cirrhotics had markedly reduced sperm motility and density.

The differences between alcoholic and viral cirrhotic patients in the clinical signs of hypogonadism, serum levels of sex steroids, and the results of seminal fluid analysis were not statistically significant.

These findings suggest that liver cirrhosis per se, independent of etiology, causes hypogonadism and feminization, and that the degree of hypogonadism and feminization correlates well with the severity of liver failure.

#5

When I first had symptoms (racing heartbeat and others… panic attack I was diagnosed at ER) my ALT/AST levels at the hospital showed up at twice the normal level.

I DID drink red wine fairly frequently (probably 2-4 glasses per week on a regular basis) while on finasteride.

Well, after that we waited a couple of weeks and when I was retested my enzyme levels were back in the normal range. My doctor said not to drink anymore alcohol, and I really cut back (I had a few beers here and there, but probably more like 2 drinks every other week or something like that)

Well, it’s been about a year since then. I haven’t had any new blood work recently, but lately I have had a constant dull ache on the right side of my body, upper-mid-abdomen… under my rib cage and sometimes my back. This is the exact location of the liver.

I am truly very worried that finasteride did something serious and irreversible to my liver. I want to get (at least) an ultrasound or CT scan… maybe even a biopsy if I can. Unfortunately, I am starting a new job soon and do not yet have insurance, so I can’t have anything done about my aching side.

In the past, I’ve noticed doctors act like my requests to have further tests done (like hormone level tests) are ridiculous, since I am under 30 years old. However, I honestly feel that there is something very wrong inside of me and if I don’t do something about it soon, I may die within a few years. Who knows if there is even anything that can be done about it now…

#6

I realize that yrs and my experience is not the same and i can not relate to the possible “liver ache”. However i too have had feeling like yrs, that something is very wrong and that it could be alot more serious to ones health than the symptoms of non optimal T levels or similar. However i feel that these or similar thoughts come along with anybody whos health has been seriously reduced and who has not have any health issues b4. When saying this i dont mean to belittle yr feelings in any way im just reasoning that this might be a common thought when having non serious or deadly diceases too. Just my thoughts. However i think u should definetly push for the tests u want to have done, if not now then when u have insurance. If for nothing else, peace of mind can prolly do wonders for ones health.

Best of luck

#7

I understand what you’re saying and, you’re right, this could all be in my head. My girlfriend keeps trying to tell me (and herself, because she’s been living through all this with me) that it’s just psychological and anxiety [since I started having anxiety/panic issues which I have NO DOUBT were caused by fin]

And maybe it is. But what scares me is that when I look up causes for aches/pains (even dull ones) in the liver area, the causes are nothing to scoff at: cirrhosis, tumors, cancer. Things that are irreversible and uncurable, but if caught soon enough can be dealt with and lessened somewhat. So I figure the sooner I know, the better. If I go through all the time, trouble, and money to find out my organs are functioning perfectly fine… then great! At least I will then have bought some peace of mind. And if things aren’t looking so great… then at least I may have caught it in time to take preventative and cautionary measures against worsening or prolonging the damage.

That’s the way I see it. What I’ve noticed is a lot of doctors literally brushing any of my concerns aside because I’m a “strapping young lad” (getting older, but I look young for my age and from an external appearance I look quite healthy) and so there’s “no way” anything could be going wrong with my internal organs. Only… how do they know this so surely without doing the tests, when I am experiencing certain symptoms that would indicate otherwise…?

So I feel we need to be rather proactive in all of this. If I was 60+ years old, I’m sure the doctors wouldn’t scoff at my concerns about imbalanced hormones (they refused to blood test it) or ongoing pain in my upper right abdomen and back – AFTER having blood tests which confirmed that, truly, some sort of damage had occurred. What if that same damage had been occurring for the previous several months when I wasn’t getting blood tests? Then I could be in dire straits.

I hope everything is fine and, as you said, it could all just be my anxiety or some sort of hypersensitivity to small aches and pangs that have always been there (and maybe I just notice them now because I am so acutely aware/paranoid about my liver’s health) But… like I said, all research I’ve done said that any pain at all in the liver area is a very, very bad sign.

Better safe than sorry.

[I’ll give an update once I’ve had some testing done. And I’m so adamant about this that I will go pay the several hundred dollars out of my pocket if my insurance or primary care doctor say they won’t do it.]

#8

So returning to my CYP3A4-suppression theory…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytochrome_P450

Information posted on wikipedia states:

“For example, bioactive compounds found in grapefruit juice and some other fruit juices, including bergamottin, dihydroxybergamottin, and paradisin-A, have been found to inhibit CYP3A4-mediated metabolism of certain medications, leading to increased bioavailability and thus the strong possibility of overdosing.[7] Because of this risk, avoiding grapefruit juice and fresh grapefruits entirely while on drugs is usually advised.”

Then, at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP3A4 we have a list of sources of CYP3A4 inhibition that include: amiodarone, aprepitant, azole antifungals (ketoconazole, itraconazole etc), bergamottin (constituent of grapefruit juice), cimetidine, ciprofloxacin, ciclosporin, diltiazem, imatinib, echinacea, enoxacin, ergotamine, macrolide antibiotics (erythromycin, telithromycin etc), metronidazole, mifepristone, nefazodone, non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors (efavirenz, nevirapine etc)2, gestodene, mibefradil, protease inhibitors (saquinavir, ritonavir, indinavir etc), selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (fluoxetine etc), Star fruit, verapamil

Now, of all of these, the only ones that might be considered readily available, either because they are pharmaceutically popular, are naturally available in food we eat, or are simply available over-the-counter would appear to be the following: bergamottin (constituent of grapefruit juice), echinacea (a readily available herbal supplement), macrolide antibiotics (erythromycin, telithromycin etc), selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (fluoxetine etc), and Star fruit.

From the ‘star fruit’ entry under “drug interactions”:

“Like grapefruit, star fruit is considered to be a potent inhibitor of seven cytochrome P450 isoforms.[1][2] These enzymes are significant in the first pass elimination of many medicines, and thus the consumption of star fruit or its juice in combination with certain medications can significantly increase their effective dosage within the body. Research into grapefruit juice has identified a number of common medications affected, including statins which are commonly used to treat cardiovascular illness, benzodiazepines (a tranquilizer family including diazepam) as well as other medicines.[3] These interactions can be fatal if an unfortunate confluence of genetic, pharmacological, and lifestyle factors results in, for instance, heart failure, as could occur from the co-ingestion of star fruit or star fruit juice with atorvastatin (Lipitor).”

One can also imagine that simply taking one round of macrolide antibiotics could lead to significant inhibition of CYP3A4.

Now get this: CYP3A4 is also responsible for the metabolism of testosterone and estrodiol.

Now put this all together: With CYP3A4 inhibited plasma finasteride levels increase continuously and unchecked. At the same time, testosterone and estrodiol metabolism is also decreased. The effect is that testosterone is continually prevented more and more from being converted to DHT (due to continually increasing finasteride levels), and that testosterone increase is further facilitated by its decrease in metabolism, such that a sustained and significant surge in testosterone occurs.

Since finasteride, under normal circumstances, causes a testosterone surge of about 15%, which is still considered within physiological range, we can reason that by increasing finasteride levels, and also decreasing T and E metabolism, a far higher level of testosterone, perhaps even a supraphysiological level, would be achieved. HPTA negative feedback would also be predicted to increase (bostered additionally by the increase in estrodiol levels).

When I discussed this topic with Dr. Chisler he was skeptical about the possibility of finasteride’s typical mechanism of action causing extreme HPTA negative feedback comparable to Anabolic Steroid induced hypogonadism.

This mechanism hints that such extreme negative feedback may be in fact be possible, with finasteride playing a central role. (Also possible, and operating under the same mechanism would be genetically attributable deficiency in CYP3A4 enzyme expression).

#9

Hmm… but did many of us consume such things? I did drink a bit of red wine while on the fin… but no grapefruit juice or star fruit, etc.

#10

For whatever its worth, I also had a stomach virus (about 4 months ago) and I was puking straight bile at one point, was extremely dehydrated to the point where I had to desperately enter the bathroom and rinse out my mouth (couldn’t swallow since I’d vomit it back up), and was really astonished at the pure yellow bile that I was vomiting. It hit me very hard with a 104 fever & felt like puking out my stomach itself. Unfortunately, I didn’t experience much of a return to my normal self afterwards, and no real improvements in my condition, but during the ordeal I felt pleased I was purging myself & I did take note that I was puking bile. Maybe there’s a connection perhaps?

#11

I thought it was to inhibit 5ar type 2. Do we have any studies or evidence of this? I know there’s one study reporting downregulation of the androgen receptor, but that’s all I know of. Shame this guy makes startling claims but didn’t go into detail about it…

What does it mean to inhibit C19 and C21 steroid metabolism? I’ve never heard of those steroids, but I assume this is yet another specific mechanism of finasteride on the body that we weren’t told about at all. Should be added in the FAQ section, no?

another shocking story… I didn’t know that kind of testing was possible. Do we know if anyone else has tested their androgen receptors?

#12

I’ve posted this on my story also but want to include here because it’s germane. I’ve had two experiences now with viral infections and total recovery after beating them. The first I picked up from contaminated food. Everything I ate for 10 days went STRAIGHT through me. I wasn’t vomiting but my liver was producing bile overtime. After my stomach was back to normal I had a period of about 10 days where I was 100% back to normal.

The second experience happened recently while I was traveling. I got dehydrated and again a viral infection. I thought a massage might help and quite honestly I didn’t understand the extent of the infection. It may have caused the virus to spread in the body or just made it worse, I don’t know. Regardless after beating it (again about 10 days) I had 100% recovery including normalization of the face, normal erections, full ejaculate, and feeling while having sex with a condom. Unfortunately it only lasted about 4 days this time.

I’m not sure of the mechanisms but can attest that this has happened to me twice.

I’ve tried some liver cleanses and teas but they affect me negatively. I only get the positive reaction when the immune system is involved.

#13

Guys, if you were puking non stop and had diareaha, it probably wasnt because your liver was working over time, it was more likely because you wernt putting load on your liver via food for that time IMO.

The bile would cerainly help though.

1 Like
#14

I just read some of these liver theories and it’s got my mind racing…

on the forbidden list are a number of things I definitely consumed for a while.

Pre-fin, I had been on strong antibiotics for skin-related issues. Before and after fin, I was applying a topical skin cream, ketoconazole (brand name: Nizoral) daily. As I mentioned in my “member story” I found out that this medicine (ingested) is used to treat those “4 hour boners” you hear about in Cialis commercials that we all dream about here. Yikes!

I’ve also been a definite binge drinker (including red wine). College and on. I just decided to stop drinking indefinitely because I reasoned anything I can do to strengthen my body could help repair it. And I also, with simple google research, found enough evidence that the efficacy of medication (I’m on Clomid & Testim) is reduced when consuming alcohol, and of course, that long-term drinkers suffer from lower T.

I did a very thorough cleanse of my entire system (kidneys, colon, liver, etc), a few years ago to treat stomach issues that subsequently subsided. During that time (6 weeks), along w/ taking a regimen of natural herbs (cloves, this and that), drinking a disgusting natural tea concoction, etc, etc…I ate nothing with yeast or starch, no booze, no soda. I don’t remember all the restrictions, but I’m thinking of exploring some variant of the regimen again. It made me feel great. I became so much leaner and healthier-feeling. I’m already eating well, makes me think I could up the ante even more with a cleanse, and further limiting sugars, etc. It’s win-win, the way I see it.

#15

This drug is actually an older type of SSRI which has “off label” uses as a sleep aid. It could be causing you more harm then you think.

#16

natural_one1976,

I clicked on your history. I don’t see any blood tests that you have done or listed here. How would you know to expect any possible liver damage if you don’t have any blood tests listed?

#17

I have to agree that the liver damage theory makes sense. In the past four years i had a few days in wich i felt 100%, and now i can relate that eighter i was sick before these days, or had diet changes. I remember when i tried a high fat and protein diet after finasteride. My libido improved dramatically in the first days, but then my body simply could not process all that fat and protein at the same time. I think diets like this (atkins) puts an extra effort on the liver.
Also, when i tried Fava beans, i attributed the amazing improvement i felt for a few hours to the secretion of GH induced by the beans high amount of levodopa. But on the other hand, these beans have a higher level of toxidicy and it does stimulate the liver to work more so to break it down. So who knows…

#18

Also, i was using topical Ketoconazole (Nizoral), before and while on Fin. Could Nizoral have inhibited the CY liver enzime, and because of that the levels of Finasteride became to high on my body?

#19

has anyone here ever done a liver flush ? andrea moritz?

#20

Yes I have done a liver cleanse . Other peoples results may very but mine didn’t lead to anything helpful. I tried it half a dozen times and each time it made me feel very weak and shaky. People with a normal body chemistry will feel rejuvenated by a liver cleanse.

Here’s the best How to: for any one interested in the best and least expensive way to cleanse and detoxify your liver

COFFEE CLEANSE (Taken from ‘The Gerson Therapy’)

Detoxification of the body is critical. Enemas made from drip-grind coffee have proven themselves an advantageous means of restoring the liver. The caffeine drug in coffee administered as an enema definitely detoxifies the liver. The liver is the main organ of regeneration of the body’s metabolism for the transformation of food from intake to output.

While the coffee enema is being retained in the gut (for optimum period ranging from 12-15 minutes), all of the body’s blood passes through the liver every three minutes. The hemorrhoidal blood vessels dilate from exposure to the caffeine; in turn, the liver’s portal veins dilate also. Simultaneously, the bile ducts expand with blood, the bile flow increases, and smooth muscles of these internal organs relax. The blood serum and its many components are detoxifed as this vital fluid passes through the individual’s caffeinated liver. The quart of water being retained in the bowel stimulates the visceral nervous system, promoting peristalsis. The water delivered through the bowel dilutes the bile and causes an even greater increase in bile flow. There is a flushing of toxic bile which is further affected by the body’s enzymatic catalyst known to physiologists as glutathione S-transferase (GST).

The coffee enema lowers blood serum toxins, literally cleaning the poisons out of fluids nourishing normal cells. Invariably, small quantities of poisons are contained therein. Each cell is challenged by toxins, oxygen starvation, malnutrition, or trauma which collectively alter the cell’s molecular configuration and cause it to lose its preference for potassium. As we know, sodium competes with potassium for association sites in damaged cells.

Loss of cellular potassium and increase of cellular sodium results in decreased electron flow through the damaged cell, which some biochemists refer to as a macromolecule. This injured macromolecule becomes unnatural to paramagnetic ions and a subsequent disorganization of water molecules may take place. When the internal environment of the macromolecule becomes polluted with excess water and extracellular materials, mitochondrial production of ATP is greatly impaired. The result is that macromolecules can not produce sufficient energy to repair themselves unless the challenge is removed.

Energy production and immunity are depressed in these macromolecules, which are swollen with excess salt and water. Such damaged tissue possesses a decreased blood circulation because oversized edematous cells crowd together inside the capillaries, arterioles, and lymph ducts.

Enzyme systems in the liver and small bowel are responsible for conversion and neuralization of the four most common tissue toxins, polyamines, ammonia, toxic-bound nitrogen and electrophiles, all of which can cause cell and membrane damage. Such protective liver and gut enzyme systems are massively increased in their beneficial effects by coffee enemas. Twenty years after his death, editors at the highly scientific journal ‘Physiological Chemistry and Physics’, complimented Dr. Gerson by reprinting one of his works. They afffirmed, “Caffeine enemas cause dilation of bile ducts, which facilitates excretion of toxic cancer breakdown products by the liver and dialysis of toxic products from blood across the colonic wall”.

Making Coffee

Bring 1 quart of distilled water to a boil
Add 3 rounded tbsp of organic coffee
Boil without a lid for 3 minutes
Lower heat to simmer and simmer for 15 minutes with lid partially on
Strain solution through a fine strainer or line a coarse strainer with a filter cloth.
Now add enough water to bring coffee back to 1 quart.
Cool coffee to warm temperature to your finger - as for a baby’s bath.

Administration
If you are able to get up and down a clean bathroom floor works best. You may prefer to put some soft padding on the bathroom floor, cover it with plastic and a towel (a lawn chaise pad is excellent), plop down a pillow and lie down on that padded floor. Make sure you are warm and comfortable.

Lie on “right” side with knees pulled up in relaxed position and insert rectal tube 4-6 inches. Then turn on valve slightly to allow the coffee to go in slowly to avoid cramping. You can shut the valve off if cramping begins and deep breath. When feeling comfortable allow more coffee to go in.

Hold the coffee for 12-15 minutes and then go to the bathroom. It is not advisable to hold it longer since the liquid will be absorbed into the colon.

In the beginning you may want to start with 1 or 2 cups from the above recipe and just hold it as long as you can. The process will improve quickly with time as cleansing takes place.