I quit the drug about 6 weeks ago. Since then I’ve had a distinct roller-coaster effect: A few days of heightened horniness and sexuality, followed by a few days/weeks of reduced sexuality and an increase of other side-effects (mainly testicle pains).
Mew: This is what I thought too, but it somehow doesn’t seem to fit with the testicle pain. Why would decreased hormonal levels cause this? In any case, this is the optimistic theory, so I do try to believe in it.
Martin: Definitely yes… Is this not good? My biggest downturn so far which was around 3-4 weeks ago seemed to have started after a few days of decreased sexual activity, so it seems that there is no direct link (or even maybe the link is the other way around - less activity-> crash). Or is this an accumulative thing where you masturbate / have sex for a few days or a week and then it all “gets back at you” in one big crash a few days or a week later…?
On second thought, let me rephrase my question to martin (or anyone who can shed light on abstinence as a preventative to crashes):
I’ve seen that some people around here advocate abstinence in order to prevent crashes, but this seems a bit dubious to me, because of the statistical bias. Sex is an extremely strong driving force for us (as well as most animals), and it is only natural that people that have just had their sexual functions restored will indulge in them as mush as they can. So I would guess that almost everyone who recovered from a crash will feel the urge to “try it out” and because of the strength of this force - will actually do it.
The little theory that I’m developing here (with no real evidence except my own short experience and some statistical reasoning) goes on to suggest that that the forum members that actually had long-term recoveries are no longer on the forum to report their experiences.
In other words:
The men that masturbate/have sex are the same men that have had short-term recoveries.
The men that have had short-term recoveries are the same men that had another crash and blame masturbation/sex for their crash.
The men that have had long-term recoveries are no longer on the forum so we don’t hear them.
This combination of factors creates the statistical illusion on the forum that abstinence helps, but in reality it does not.
Another consideration that I have is that this drug has denied me of a proper life for long enough and I don’t want to continue letting it do this. If I can have sex - I’m having it. Now.
OTOH, if someone can convince me that abstinence will really help my long-term recovery - I’ll do it without any more questions!
I can only speak from my experience and those of others in the same boat, but “mastubation” had nothing to do with causing my body to lower Testosterone/LH/FSH production to near-hypogonadal levels within 2-3 weeks of quitting the drug. We see this pattern time and time again – many men left with hypogonadism post-Finasteride.
This has nothing to do with masturbation, either before or after Finasteride. It has to do with stopping the drug, 5AR1/2 enzyme supposedly no longer being inhibited/able to metabolize DHT again, and the return of DHT likely having negative feedback on the hypothalamus-pituitary axis, leading to a drop in endogenous androgen production.
Why this occurs, and these hormones remains low longterm, or in other case increase to normal levels but the men still suffer all the symptoms of hypogonadism (ie, potential androgen resistance), is the million dollar question we have been trying to figure out for years. Thankfully, increasing media and medical attention may lead to studies which will shed light on these important questions.
That said, I would advocate not overly “stressing” your body by masturbating too often when coming off the drug, in order to keep your body’s homeostasis as stable as possible during that time.
I’m pretty sure that these cycles are driven by temporary boosts of adrenal hormones.
I used to have cycles like the ones you are describing for more than 1 year post-fin. The overall trend, though, was downwards. It was devastating. After starting taking pregnenolone in Jan 2011, these cycles have totally stopped. You draw your conclusions on what causes them.
You can rationalize anything you want. I don’t care if you masturbate or not, I can just tell you that time and time again it’s reported here that heavy masturbation or sexual activity preceded a crash and after it happens it’s very difficult to recover to pre-crash level from. Do it at your own risk just don’t pretend that there is no risk.
How many long term forum members here have left because they’ve recovered? Can you name any? I can think of one or two a while ago, it took one guy 3 years and he seemed to get better though he wasn’t sure how. JN has had some success on his cocktail of drugs. I can tell you I post every time I start to feel a little better, though I feel stupid and embarrassed when the improvements turn out to be temporary.
Many members seem to have an extended refractory period, the time it takes to recover after an orgasm or ejaculation. If you think of having a tank of sexual energy (positive hormones needed for libido and sexual function) as your refractory period measurement it seems to lower every time you masturbate. The more you lower it the longer it takes to come back and it seems that some members hit a tipping point, so after repeated ejaculation their hormone systems get further unbalanced. This is often associated with a “crash” - extreme penile shrinkage, testicle shrinkage, zero libido, etc which is difficult to get back to pre crash level from, much less pre-fin level.
I do agree with your opinion of possible statistical bias however. As with the hope of every male who is curing impotence, there is a tendency to post every success, however minor or temporary, or misery, if bad enough, then give up or ignore if the efforts are futile.
I hate to say it, but if you really follow your line of reasoning put your penis where your mouth is. Try pursuing as much sexual activity as possible, track what happens. My bet is you’ll be ok for a little while, then you’ll find it harder and harder to get an erection or ejaculate. After a while you’ll try harder, but the tank I’m talking about above will further empty and in the end you’ll still be here but wishing you were here in the state you are now rather than the state you will be in.
I do know that I was doing “ok” but after masturating 3 times one night I shrank down to almost nothing the next day. That was the only thing different I had done the day prior. Masturation is very taxing on you. Chemicals are released, an electrical charge goes off in the brain, etc. I’m not sure if that is what pushed me into this state and I may have crashed regardless but that was just my experience.
@worried - I really do not believe at all there is a huge number of long-term recoveries out there. I think this is a bit too pollyannish a view. Most sufferers accept it to a degree that allows them to cope. What’s the alternative? We have a condition for which there is no cure now. We can’t afford to sit back and hope for a recovery after X amount of time. Its time to face that and focus on public awareness and gaining the attention of the research community.
Thanks Mew for the sound advice. This is really what I’m been trying to do as much as I can since al this has started - just to live as well as I can, without stressing anything and at the same time without sacrificing more than I must in order to live well.
Has this treatment been successful? Did it stabilize on a good level?
In a strange and twisted way this is exactly what happened to me yesterday. I’m dating a new woman now, and she is one of the most attractive women I have ever dated. I only met her 3 times until now. Our first 2 dates were during my last “horny phase”, and she seemed so attractive to me that I literally had a hard-on during our entire dates It wasn’t a very high-quality hard-on (I think) but I’m pretty sure it was enough for me to have full intercourse with her, had she wanted us to. The second meeting ended with about an hour of making out outside her house, during which I nearly burst.
Our 3rd date was yesterday, and since it was a holiday here we went for a full-day trip to another city. It was about a 1 hour drive from where we live, and we started making out in the car while I was driving (not safe I know). I was feeling very very horny and really felt like I’m going to cum in my pants (I even think there indeed was some small discharge). Unfortunately, this was a long way from both our houses, and we did want to complete the trip, so I had to restrain myself despite of all this.
The result was an intense pain in my testicle that started a few minutes after our most intensive make out session. It was a very hard pain which I could hardly walk with. It did subside after about 1.5-2 hours, but the end result was that when we did get to her apartment in the evening and she was lying naked and ready in front of me - I could do nothing but explain. I had totally lost any ability to have a hard-on.
Now (a day after), I feel that my libido is down too.
I’m not sure if this current downturn has anything to do with this story, but it seems a bit too coincidental…
If this is true this is indeed very very sad… But are we sure about this? Couldn’t it be that some men simply register, post a few times, and then recover and forget about this site? Are there any statistics about this?
@worried- Yes, we are sure. There are some who have sides while on Fin but naturally recover within the first few months, as most all do. Those people would have no reason to post anymore so likely don’t return to the forum. There have been many more incidences of people coming back after years to say they are still suffering. There are very few who come back and say they have recovered. But, there have been alot of positives lately in terms of public awareness, journal publications, etc. which will hopefully lead to a full blown research program soon which is what everyone is working toward.
I really have no clue of the mechanisms behind this. I would have thought I had a great chance to recover. I didnt drink or smoke, I ate healthy, exercised regularly, etc. People would routinely guess I was 10 yrs younger than my age. Now, I’m a mess.
It’s like a tank that runs empty, no? And when you get too low you can’t refill it, doesn’t matter what hormones are taken, what foods are eaten, what vitamins are taken, how much you rest or how much you exercise. You’re libido is just gone, as is your penis/hard on, and there’s nothing you can do about it but wait and hope to get some function back.
I’m still pursuing this treatment, of which I’m very satisfied so far, although I’m not recovered. You missed the point of my post, though. The point of my post is that my experience strongly suggests that these cycles are caused by non-androgenic hormones (adrenal, thyroid) and NOT, as some think, by some mysterious molecular change in the androgen receptors. Otherwise, I would still have these cycles.
In my case these cycles only occured in first few months after quitting, as my body was likely trying to regain its balance/T production. Since then my body obviously settled on a new “baseline” for low libido etc, and its been flatlined ever since.
I apologize for stressing this obviously painful point, but I really would like to understand: How many people out of the population coming to this forum have indeed recovered? Do we have any statistics? Guesses?
You say: “most all do”, but then you say: “many more incidences of people coming back”. It seems like a contradiction… or am I missing something here?
I think it is an important data-point. Personally, I’m interested in this in order to try and assess my own chances. My approach would be far different had I known I have a low chance of recovery. (I still believe I have a chance, but this belief is just that right now - a belief…)
This is both very sad and personally terrifying for me. I could have said the exact same thing right now (about my perception of my chances to recover…)
No contridiction. When I say “most all people recover from Propecia sides” I mean of the entire population who took Propecia. When I say “very few come back to report recoveries” I am talking about those who post here to report persistant side effects, actual PFS cases. There are very very few “confirmed” cases of recoveries. A recovery story should be backed up with medical records. Thankfully people are no longer allowed to post suspect “recovery” stories.
I think i’ve had the same experience with masturbation, crashing after intense periods of it, in fact these days i even feel worse the day after doing it once, while sex, if anything, seems to make me feel better, so heres what i’m gonna do: Starting today i’m gonna have three weeks of total abstinence (something i don’t think i have ever done to be honest, if i improve my improvement may or may not be linked to abstinence, but if i improve, and other people try it and have positive results, we may find that there is enough evidence to really suggest that abstinence helps, ill let you know_
