Personally, I have enromous difficulty sleeping at night. I wake up in the middle of the night for an hour or two, and the hours that I do sleep are not deep, quality hours. It’s been like this since the middle months I was taking fin. I think that it may have something to do with my adrenal situation (fatigue/overstress). I do know that when I occasionally manage to get a good deep sleep – one where I am dreaming actively and vividly – that those are also the nights or mornings where I wake up with wood. And I generally feel much better one those days altogether. If I could string together several nights, and then weeks, of this kind of sleep, I feel like I could be on my way. Testosterone cranks out during sleeping hours, and tissue repair takes place, so it makes sense. How is your sleep?
Hi Quint
How are you doing on the Cortef and Sustain Alpha? Recall you saying that you were feeling some improvements, and wondered if they had been maintained?
I hear you on the sleep. God only knows what fin did to our sleep, but it sure did it well. I know Mew has seen improvement in sleep in the years he’s been off; have you seen any at all?
I’m about to start a cycle of Tammox, but not hugely optimistic given your experience and that of Thissucks. But hey, it’s worth a shot.
Best wishes.
Good days and bad. Overall it’s been an improvement compared to the two months before it. However, I was on vacation last week, and forgot to bring the Sustain, so I don’t know what effect that may have had. Back on it now. But right now, whether I have a good day or bad seems to depend almost entirely, and more and more obviously, and how my sleep was the night before. Last night – terrible sleep. Was up every half hour, and never got into deep mode. Today I feel shittier than I have in a while. There’s no coincidence.
If I have had any improvements in the two years off fin in terms of my sleeping quality, they have been marginal. Maybe a bit. I mean, when I first went off it, I was sleeping like only half nights, but I actually felt great. That was the good rebound period most have experienced. That’s likely what burned me out in the long run, though.
It is weird, though; two nights ago, good sleep, had morning wood, was horny during the day, and shot normal loads. Today, nothing. Was really hoping the cortef would help me get a sound slumber, but maybe it takes time. I really think that sleeping deeply on a regular basis and getting regular morning woods, like for at least a month or more, will help our conditions dramatically. It just means that at least you are getting blood flow down there, and getting at least one erection per day. Just to keep the equipment working, or get it working again.
The tamox is worth a try, but unfortunately for me my T levels wound up worse than before after I went off it. Not saying that would be a trend, but it’s what happened to me. That’s why I’m trying the Alpha again.
Over the past 3 years since being off, I have noticed a slow, gradual improvement in sleep quality. While on the drug I found I wasn’t dreaming and only sleeping very lightly, sometimes waking up gasping for air with anxiety-type feelings in my upper chest.
After quitting, for the first 1-2 yrs I slowly began getting REM sleep again, no longer woke up gasping for air/anxiety, but found I would wake up consistently at strange hours multiple times throughout the night (3am, 5:30am) and not be able to fall asleep again.
As of the past year, I am now getting consistent REM sleep again, rarely wake up in the middle of the night, and do not feel as exhausted throughout the day. Unfortunately I rarely have nocturnal, spontaneous or morning woods.
I think I’ve mentioned this before, but one thing I’ve noticed which provides more intense and deep sleep/dreaming, and leaves me feeling a bit more “refreshed” the next morning than normal, is L-Arginine (increases Nitric Oxide production) before bed… 500mg or 1 gram.
I don’t take this consistently as I don’t want to build a tolerance, nor do I like the fact that longterm studies on L-Arginine supplementation are scarce. I’m simply pointing out an observation I’ve had, the various times I have tried it.
Considering Nitric Oxide is involved in sleep, this doesn’t surprise me in the least since when taking Finasteride we were likely reducing NO levels, as NO is mediated via DHT. That said, supplementing with too much L-arginine is probably not a good thing either, based on research I’ve seen. As with anything, there’s a fine balance.
Some interesting links worth reading:
Reducing Nitric Oxide Gas In The Brain May Help Us Stay Awake
medicalnewstoday.com/articles/51436.php
Effects of selective neuronal nitric oxide synthase inhibition on sleep and wakefulness in the rat.
websciences.org/cftemplate/N … D=20046487
“… Evidence suggests a positive role of NO on Slow Wave Sleep (SWS) and Paradoxical Sleep (PS) regulation, favoring sleep.”
"… Therefore, sleep states are affected by selective inhibition of nNOS, reducing in all cases deep SWS. These results support the hypothesis that nitric oxide, produced by nNOS, is involved in sleep processes, favoring sleep. "
Role of nitric oxide in sleep regulation: effects of L-NAME, an inhibitor of nitric oxide synthase, on sleep in rats.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1021 … rom=pubmed
"The effects of L-NAME observed after s.c. or i.c.v. administration confirm previous studies in rabbits and rats, in which the NOS inhibitor reduced sleep and increased W [waking] in a dose-dependent manner.
It is possible that REMS suppression after L-NAME could be related to a reduction of acetylcholine release in areas critical for REMS promotion. A decrease in gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) release after nitric oxide synthesis inhibition could play a role in the reduction of SWS."
Sleep and nitric: oxide: effects of 7-nitro indazole, inhibitor of brain nitric oxide synthase
sciencedirect.com/science?_o … daeb9bddc3
We examined the effect of 7-nitro indazole (7-NI, 2.5–50 mg/kg, i.p.), an inhibitor of central nitric oxide (NO) synthesis, on general behaviour and sleep.
The results show that 7-NI induces ptosis, a loss of the righting reflex and decrease of the EEG amplitudes. Furthermore, a duration of slow wave sleep (SWS) and REM sleep decreased, while the latencies of SWS and REM sleep increased.
The effects of 7-NI on general behaviour and sleep were partially antagonized by intraventricular administration of the NO precursor,l-arginine (600 μg).
These findings indicate that 7-NI induces a state of prominent central depression associated with motor deficit and decrease in sleep stages and wakefulness. It further suggests that NO exerts a significant excitatory effect on the neuronal structure involved in the regulation of locomotion and vigilance.
I’ve tried L-Arginine, and I do think it did help a bit. Haven’t tried in a while (back when I first stopped fin), since it did nothing for that elusive libido.
Do you mean you get zero erections in the morning/during the night? Like not just a half-wood or a floppy one, but nothing at all? A lot of days I have nothing, other days something. Not like a pre-fin rock hard pole, but a good 50% - 75% kind of thing.
But I still wake up in the 5-6am area for at least an hour, it seems, quite frequently.
It’s hit and miss, and very rare that I get them. If I do, they are only floppy hard, not diamond-cutters like before Fin, and don’t last long.
Remember piss hardons? You’d wake up with a raging boner which made it difficult to take a piss even, then after taking a piss it still wouldn’t go down for another few minutes… yea, I used to have those daily before Finasteride. While on the drug and since, no longer. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve had those types of piss-hardons post-Fin as of 3 years being off (4 years total, if you include the 11 months I took it).
So, despite a return of somewhat normal sleep, erections are not taking place like they used to – which to me points to a hormonal & vascular/tissue issue.
Yeah, used to get piss hard-ons regularly, too. When I was taking Arimidex in the fall I was getting those kinds a bit more; not exactly, but close.
What, if any, tests do you plan to set up for the vascular/tissue thing?
As mentioned in my Member Story update, I didn’t end up going through with a doppler ultrasound at a local hospital due to concerns about further possible fibrotic changes from injection.
If I were to undertake a doppler in the future, I would do it with someone like Dr Goldstein who recognizes the dangerous effets of Finasteride and androgen deprivation therapy on penile tissues and who can offer critical insights – not getting it done by some lab tech who has no clue about such things, in any old hospital.
Are there any possible treatments for such things, if it turns out to be the case? I think the member Joshblack said recently he had seen Goldstein and that he concluded vascular issues.
Androgen therapy? Peyronie’s disease treatments? Re-vascularization surgery?
Best left for discussion with Goldstein. Let’s try and keep this thread on topic. 
Fair enough. As far as I recall from seeing your labs a while back, you never had any results indicating adrenal issues, right? (Might be mistaking you with someone else, though.) Do you have any idea what may have accounted for you improved sleeping patterns over time?
Low-ish DHEA, ACTH and high-ish Cortisol (one time blood draw). Haven’t investigated further.
No idea other than time is a healer, as they say… haven’t changed anything related to diet or excercise, seems my body is just starting to get its circadian rythm back on track and with that, better sleep.
Yeah I went and checked your bloods. Apparently bloods are not terribly reliable for Cortisol, not sure about DHEA, though. My DHEA has been identically high (over range) on both urine and blood tests in the last three months. Could have been what was keeping you up at night. I have been off finasteride for exactly two years now; you’re like a year further down the road than me. Would you say it was nearer the two year mark that you’re sleep improved the most, or later?
Sleep started to really improve after 2-2.5 years off. By 3 years off the difference compared to how I was while on the drug vs now is night and day. Still not as good as I was pre-Fin, but definitely 60-70% better compared to on Fin and initially while off it.
I actually sleep more soundly now, not lightly like on Fin, and have dreams I can remember again (REM sleep)… whereas while on Fin all I recall were bands of colors and anxiety/fear-type feelings, not lucid REM dreams.
I remember telling a friend of mine a few months ago that for like all of last year I harldy dreamed at all, and that when I woke up in the morning I basically just felt like I’d been lying down for several hours. When I’d wake up I knew exactly where I was. Before fin, when I woke up in the morning I’d have no clue where I was for a few seconds, like I’d been elsewhere.
I was prescribed Zopiclone for insomnia recently, but I’m reluctant to use it, because I don’t really want to introduce more drugs into the mix. But after last night I think I’ll be popping one tonight. Not too crazy about the feeling in the morning after I’ve taken one, though; not dopey, but emotionally dull somehow.
Hey Quint and Mew
Be really great to get your thoughts on the ideas posted here before I see my endo:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2193
Thanks very much. Best wishes.
Its just creepy the number of “coincidences” i find about my story and others on this board. I have told people for YEARS that i do not remember my dreams. I still dont.
I had three days of feeling rested, but last night for some reason i couldn’t sleep. I was up reading till about 3:00am. I woke up about 11:00am. Now i feel fogged up and shitty as ever… 
Thanks for the info Mew.
I have been taking a protein supplement after working out. It has .6 g of L-Arginine. When I take this I notice my entire body seems to fill up properly like it hasn’t since pre fin. I especially notice this in the penis, it gets thicker. I will try to isolate this this instead of the whole supplement to see what happens. Though I have noticed some lessening of the effect over the last couple months.
It’s good to know that there is something that has a direct positive effect.