Those tests are expensive, I’ve already spent so much money on the others. I am functioning properly.
If I was 100% I wouldn’t care now. How I feel and function is all that matters to me.
I have a high deductible insurance plan and I can’t afford to drop another couple hundred right now. I’ll call my doctor and see what she says.
Keep us updated. If anybody else is successful with this regime i’ll give it a try.
I believe we are stuck in a bad hormonal loop just as bodybuilders who took steroids and didn’t do a proper PCT have the same symptoms we have. I’ve read over at anabolicminds.com someone doing something similar.
Here is a quote over at anabolic minds.com
“i feel that if youre body has already worked itself into a bad homeostatic hormone loop…it is probably going to stay that way. I viewed re-supressing my HPTA and then re-jumpstarting it correctly as “reset button”.”
He did this:
. i ran 6 weeker of testosterone propionate and then blasted my HPTA with a chlomid/nolva combo. Sex drive and function was back within a week.
I also believe this. This is why I regularly spend time on some of the muscle chat message boards. Many of these guys have been through similar hormonal loop, so to speak. They know what works.
But over here here few tried clomid and nolva with failure. May be we need more who can try. I want to do nolva but honestly my knowledge is very little and am afraid of sides.
I’m not too famailar on the subject, I think others have tried to reset the HPTA.
This 28 year old did steriods and pct and didnt recover “It has been close to 3 months since I completed that PCT protocol. I’ve noticed that my libido has not been ideal and have been battling ED occasionally. I recently got my hormones tested and here is what has come in so far:”
LH: 2.13 (1.5-9.3)
FSH: .52 (1.4-18.1)
TSH: 1.91 (0.35-5.5)
Free T4: 1.24 (.89-1.76)
Free T3: 3.4 (2.3-4.2)
Total Testosterone: 306.76 (241-827)
Free Test: waiting on results
This is what Dr. Scally responed with"
"I would immediately stop all of the supplements, particularly tribulus. It appears that AAS use might have suppressed partially the HPTA. The use of clomiphene or tamoxifen will raise the T level, but the question is if this will cause the HPTA to reset up. I doubt it.
I do think it worthwhile to use the protocol I describe. It mus be done as written. The use of hCG or SERMs incorrectly will cause the protocol to be useless. There is no reason for the hMG unless there is a fertility issue. If the T remains low normal afterwards, use TRT for 12-18 months with an attempt at HPTA restoration. A recent 2007 NEJM article indicates the HPTA does have plasticity. In my experience, I have had many patients reset the HPTA as described.
Here is the pdf from Dr. Scally
Maybe someone can look this over and make some sense of it. I haven’t read through it all yet, hopefully its not old news. Sorry not trying to hijack the thread, but this may be similar to what OP did.
_scally_aih_abstracts-1.pdf (606 KB)
from PDF attachment, case2 is very interesting. LH did not budge for the first 2 attempts but HPG was restored on the 3rd attempt also note heavy dosage of HCG.
Case 2: 5’10" 184 lbs 36 yr old Caucasian male with a 2 yr history of
continuous nandrolone use (200-400 mg/wk). Pre-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 45 ng/dL. Treat 1
(32 days): 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (8 total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and arimidex (1 mg qd).
Post-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 38 ng/dL. Treat 2 (60 days): 5,000 IU hCG every 4 days (4 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (4 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen
(10 mg qd). Post-values: LH > 1.4 IU/L, T 63 ng/dL. Treat 3 (32 days): 5,000 IU hCG qod (6 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG qod (6 inj total) given simultaneously with menotropins 150 IU
qod (6 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen (10 mg bid). Post-values: LH 9.8 IU/L,
T 507 ng/dL. Restoration of the HPG axis, even in severe cases of hypogonadism, is possible
with combined therapies and careful monitoring of the patient. With continued popularity of
these drugs, long-term androgen deficiency is a health concern for former AAS users. Further
research is needed in this area.
I agree, that is very promising. Has anyone here actually tried this combination of drugs at this dose before? Would be so wonderful if it worked!
Maybe we are having two effects.
First we suffer from direct effects of the drug low 5 ARs or low DHT or estrogenic effect on hypothalamus area what ever it is then over time body produces 5 AR back but we continue to suffer b/c our body is stuck with low LH and FSH. I have talked to some guys on hairlosstalk.com who took fin / Spalmetto and suffered from ED but their value were not down. Over time they recovered but people with hypo gonadal values have very slim chances of recovery. We do not know wether their 5AR has returned to normal and now they need to kick start their HPTA.
In many studies SP has been found weak 5 AR inhibitor and does nothing for hairloss or prostate compared to fin. It is mostly used in bust enhancer products for ladies or used by tranxsectual people (sorry for my bad english) to grow their boobs. It all indicates it is very potent estrogen.
Now both propecia and SP give the same side effects, may be because of not 5 AR but b/c of estrogenic effects they exert in our hypothalamus area, causing low LH and FSH.
please read
soyonlineservice.co.nz/02phytosterols.htm
If one inspects the structures of the estrogenic sterols, one can see a striking similarity of the skeletal structures of these compounds with the structure of the synthetic estrogen diethylstilbestrol".
The sterol estrogens were found to be of the highest order of estrogenic activity, followed by the coumestrols and then the isoflavones.
SPS
Good post Striken.
2nd update from Killswitch after the following was asked:
Quote:
Killswitch… are you still on TRT?
I recall you posted a long time ago about trying the gel and recovering… are you still on it or have you since discontinued and recovered naturally?
It sounds like you are almost back to normal, just wanting to know if its due to TRT, or time (and how long, if so).
His reply:
"I am feeling good these days.I only stayed on the TRT for 4-5 months.My libido is good although not what is was but I am 36 now and must attribute some of that decline to age.
I definitely feel it helped but also time I am sure played a huge part."
I am surprised Killswitch attibutes his recovery to TRT? I used Androgel for 10 weeks aproximately and still think that was very big mistake after SP since it shrank my testes and caused a lot of water rentension. It did nothing other than delaying my recovery (whis is very very small or nothing)
how you can recover using TRT, it is like saying you recovered by using setroids?
striken-
perhaps it suppressed his endocrine system entirely and it then restarted.
see this post: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3654&p=21952#p21952
Some people from steroids dont necessarily need PCT to recover, the same way most people do not need anything to recover from finasteride.
You seem to keep asking about restarts, or clomid, or nolva - on this or other boards such as meso - so, if you are actually hypogonadal, stop asking and just do it. This will truly answer your curiosities.
if you cannot get the proper drugs from your endo, find them online. Then, do one of the protocols outlined in the pdf attached earlier in this thread titled scally_aih_abstracts-1.pdf. I am not trying to be rude to you, but this will be the end-all of your questions, and just DOING it will end you from having to prolong this ongoing internal struggle - and hopefully alleviate your anxieties of whether or not its going to work and get you back to normal.
Problem is WE ARE WORSE OFF THAN STEROID USERS. Rarely do they seem to get ed let alone our myriad symptoms even if they become hypogonadal post use and in that case TRT works for them.
Maybe if you do something right away it might help a la labrea but I doubt a restart is going to work if you are many months or more off the drug.
Happy for him but I dount herbs will help for the severe non-sexual sides, I don’t know.
He didn’t use herbs for his core cycle. He used herbs for PCT. He used a product called H-drol, which is a precursor of the steriod, Halodrol. He resurpressed his system and then restarted again, correctly. It’s kind of intreging, despite the used of steriods…
I did use a Halodrol Clone called H-Drol. While I was on it my agression and masculinity felt like it was back, however I still had ED. It was only after I had completed the 6 weeks on H-Drol and after the 4 weeks on the Inhibit-E which is and ATD Estrogen suppressant(which is known to have libido suppressing qualities itself) that I started getting erections and my testicles are full and drawn up closer to my body. The “Herbs” you speak of were ran concurrent to the Inhibit-E and ran an extra 2 weeks beyond it to help keep T levels going up.
I’m not sure if I suppressed my HPTA so much that it had nothing left to do but reset or whatever but I function and get nocturnal erections about once or twice a week. I can get an erection everytime I try and have sex. I have also noticed that my hair is still not falling out like it was pre-fin though. Though while on H-Drol it does thin more and fast due to the raised levels of T.
I just got laid off so as soon as I am working again I will get more bloodwork done. I also want a fertility test done too. I know that my FSH levels and my 3AdiolG levels were both scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Good luck to anyone else trying this. Just be sure to take Hawthorne berry and lots of water if you’re going to do this cycle. Another thing… H-Drol was legal untill about 2 months ago. So if if you are going to buy it you’ll need 2 bottles and it is still for sale on Amazon.com and other supplement site. You’ll have to hurry.
Keep me updated guys.