Running out of options

Hi Guys,

I am 29 years old and took Propecia for 6 months when I was 21. For me, the main symptom has been complete loss of libido, and as a result, and only as a result, a lot depression and anxiety. I have no erectile dysfunction, being that if I tug on the thing for long enough I can get an erection, and for that at least, I feel lucky. It has been 7 years since I took the drug and I can remember only one time, one evening, when I actually felt like I had my libido back. Other than that I can honestly say I have not had a sexual fantasy in 8 years. I have tried everything under the sun, from a lot of natural stuff, to anti-depressants, to TRT. I went to see Dr. Crisler five years ago and he gave me TRT, but it did nothing so I stopped. Earlier this year I went to see him again and my T and DHT levels were already at the top end of the range, but strangely my DHEA levels were very low. He gave me DHEA cream which wasn’t absorbing so I took more and more until it absorbed, but it made no difference what so ever to my libido.

I am running out of potential treatment options. After 7 years like this, and all the treatments, it feels permanent. Honestly, it’s like the propecia just flipped switch, and that’s that.

I just started taking Wellbutrin 8 days ago, but I have no change with that either. I am considering taking Clonopin to help with the anxiety this situation has caused me. Watching my twenties go by has been very painful.

Do you guys know what other options there are? What about electric shock therapy?!? Kidding…sort of.

im so sorry man, this is really a bad drug. all i can say is participate in the study and hopefully dr. irwig will lead us to some incite.

Yup, I spoke to Dr. Irwig a few weeks back, I’m in the study.

sorry to be off topic, but your levels all remained recovered after trt - except for dhea? t, dht, etc?

pps

how is your physical health? I mean fatigue, appetite etc? did you have and recovered or never had it.

Hey mate,

Im in the same boat as you, as are many here. I took Fin for a lot longer than you. While on fin, it seems i had some libido as i did hook up with some girls. Ever since ive quit it has totally dissapeared. I have other symptoms aswell, such as fatigue, variable anxiety and moods but Libido is by far the most concerning and painful. What is funny, is that i am a good looking and charming guy. I have women who want me a lot of the time, but i just know that it wont work. I had a chick in my bed a while ago, i was feeling her up and absolutely nothing. Strangely, just before she came down to my room i thought about sex and i did get a good erection. The second i questioned it, it was gone…

Ive been hoping that i might recover, but to be honest i know in my heart i wont (at least without help). Especially considering the stories of others here. I do think something can help us, if only i knew what it was… When i abstain from masturbation for a few days, my libido does go up slightly, as does my feeling during orgasm. Does yours?

DHT IS NOT A GOOD INDICATOR FOR 5 AR II ACTIVITY. 3a Androstanediol Glucornide (3-Adiol G) is the best marker for 5 AR II activity. PPS, did you get this test done? I urge it’s very important, because most of us have low levels of this test.

In response to your questions:

annon1: I tried to get Dr. Crisler to order that lab, but he was reluctant. I told him that everybody had low levels and he thought that meant the test itself was not correct. He said that all his finasteride patients are completely different, some high T, some low T, and he said it made absolutely no sense that all their Adiol G levels would be low. He also said he doesn’t like ordering labs for things that won’t change his treatment plan. I tried to get him to do it, but he said he wanted to push it off to the next call.

sennex: sorry to hear about your story. This is pure hell. I have a similar situation to you, but I don’t have much fatigue, I have been more anxious and depressed than fatigued. Over all my physical health is just fine. In respects to my libido increasing from abstaining from masturbation, it really doesn’t change things for me. I can go for two weeks without masturbating and it’s not much difference. I have been with girls over the past eight years, but it’s not much fun. I can have sex, but then I don’t want to for another month at least! The worse part is just going out to bars, seeing beautiful women and feeling absolutely nothing and knowing that before propecia you would have been really excited. I feel like have absolutely no connection with my penis. This is hard stuff. The strange thing is that I have tried so much, been in all sorts of different situations, and my libido has been flatlined the entire time. Not matter the situation, it does not change, ever…which unfortunately makes me feel like it is permanent. I honestly think that the only that would change it, is something really intense affecting the brain mostly, and not hormones because I have tried that, I have had T levels way above the normal range, multiple times.

golf17331: Yeh, I was only on TRT for 8 weeks, but it did nothing so I stopped. All my hormones seem to recover just fine after that.

spstriken: physical health is just fine.

Very strange! When I was on TRT I had libido,still some times get very high libido but my T is low and I am not physically fit.
Maybe there are more Androgen hormones besides T and DHT and we don’t know yet.

sps

That’s fuuny you get high libido sometimes, maybe sp isn’t as horrific as fin as kermangd has also recovered libido.

Dr Crisler is a bit wet. In his heart of hearts he knows this is a ‘lack of DHT’ suffering, but knows that he cannot prescribe DHT in USA. Instead he chooses to misguide all sufferers and even the general theme of this forum with his so called expertise. I think it’s a disgrace that he negates/brushes under the carpet a blood test which we are all low in (and by several standard deviations, making our widespread low Adiol G statistically significant).

He’s correct that it ‘won’t change’ his management plan. If he cares so much, why doesn’t he investigate Adiol G, and the methods by which it could be elevated? Including the obvious; DHT supplementation?

He’s a successful HRT doctor who used to be a steroid user. This doesn’t make him a good doctor, or even one who cares. He’s just a bit wet.

JN

just for the record, my DHT is twice the normal range on DHEA cream, and just above the normal range without DHEA.

JN, Dr. Crisler has gone on public record to openly criticize Finasteride use and generate awareness of our plight. Not many doctors will do this, or are even aware our problems exist. Dr. Crisler should be commended in this regard.

While you may disagree with his diagnoses and treatments, the above types of comments are not helpful to our situation and are disrespectful towards a medical professional who is actively trying to help our situation. Stating that he doesn’t care is simply personal opinion, stating he’s “just a bit wet” etc is not professional at all. I would ask that you refrain from making these types of comments and keep this board as professional as possible, considering doctors do visit it.

Thanks.

I would have to agree with Mew, the guy is nice, smart, hard working, and very interested in helping us as much as he knows how. He is also very, very busy and gets asked a million questions and told about a million things, especially from propecia guys so you can understand his reluctance to act on every request from a patient for a new lab, etc.

Ok. Well I think he should try harder. To my knowledge he hasn’t tried DHT replacement or even attempted to try DHT replacement. Whilst every physician is bound by practice guidelines and a legalities, he has not attempted to acquire DHT preparations in Finasteride sufferers’ very unique situations.

This rigid practice smacks of ‘operating within his comfort zone’. As far as I’m aware, he has seen the most number of Finasteride sufferers. He has not got any of them better. I am one of them. I made more progress treating myself and operating out of my comfort zone. And this is what Finsteride sufferers need; a doctor to grab the bull by the horns and seize the day.

Whilst I appreciate his speaking out in public, and appreciate the fact that he may be ‘a nice guy’, his success in treating Finasteride sufferers is virtually nil, and whilst he continues to operate within in his comfort zone, his success will be nil.

Whilst I realise my comments are unprofessional, I stick to them. He simply cannot be held up as a guru in treating sufferers, as it transmits false hope and promises. He is also expensive; I hear 500 dollars for an initial consultation.

I just think he should be honest about the limitations of his practice. Then he could open his mind to the potential significance of blood tests with which he is unfamiliar (Adiol G). To state that it is a wrong test and/or is insignificant is ridiculous. He just doesn’t know what to do. Or can’t do it.

JN

He’s trying what he knows how to do. He’s not a God, and doesn’t have the answers to everyone’s problems. You are putting too much emphasis on this concept that he has the answers to everything. Besides that, this is starting to sound like you have a personal beef with him, vs. looking at the situation objectively. Just because he won’t do something YOU want him to, doesn’t make him a “bad” or incompetent doctor. He also has to abide by the law, just like other medical practitioners, and there are likely other reasons he only attempts certain treatments vs. others. You are looking for a one-size-fits-all solution but I don’t think it’s possible to find that in any doctor.

If you want a doctor to prescribe DHT (which, I’m not even sure is possible in the USA, period), you may have a tough time. Hence why you have had to resort to your alternative methods.

That is personal opinion. He is one of a handful of doctors who recognize the problems Finasteride can cause, which MANY doctors do not. That in of itself is a godsend. Wether he can actually succesfully treat or cure people is another matter, just as it is with any doctor, as each individual’s situation is different and we/medical community still don’t know why we are suffering from these problems.

That is not a valid reason to discount a doctor. He may be expensive for your personal financial situation, but not for others. If you cannot afford to see him, it’s not his fault. That is what he charges, and it is up to the patient to pay the fee if they want to be under his care.

He IS honest about his limitations, from what I can tell.

In his video ( youtube.com/watch?v=BEGCTMtlgoc ) he fully admits “WE DON’T KNOW WHY” men continue to suffer from permanent side effects after quitting. He is not a scientific researcher with a laboratory at his disposal, nor has a molecular genetics background – he is an HRT specialist, and has admitted on video as to not knowing why Finasteride does what it does. I recall reading he has some general theories about why, but nothing he feels too confident publishing yet.

Anyway the point is this – he’s trying to help the best he can, to the extent of his knowledge and limits as to what he can do. To criticize him for not going “beyond” those boundaries is not going to help anything. I think you need to take a step back and relax. He’s on our side, but comments like yours could easily have him turn the other cheek from people who do not appreciate his efforts.

He doesn’t have the answers – nobody does. That’s why we need a research study conducted on us in a lab. In the meantime, complaining, ranting and getting in a huff over Dr. Crisler’s practice comes across like a bit of a tantrum, because he won’t do what you THINK he should.

I suggest you put your efforts into more constructive things such as finding and contacting research specialists in the androgen receptor to get them interested in our cause – scientists who have the actual tools and knowledge to conduct the type of study we need. In the meantime, let’s get this thread back on track to the original poster’s topic.

Cheers.

I would ask one thing. Dr. Crisler has apparently seen the most men with post finasteride syndrome. When I spoke to him, he said he has been successful in treating them for the most part. That said I have never read a post on here of someone who was helped or cured by him. I have by no means read all the posts, but I have searched for his name and read most of them. I presume that some of the guys that feel better never post on this forum again, but you would expect that some of them would, no?

I guess this is a question for you Mew…have you personally heard from anyone about being cured from treatment with Dr. Crisler? I think this is important to know because it says something about the potential of TRT or hormone replacement in general in our condition.

I am not knocking Dr. Crisler, I like the guy A LOT, and think he’s the best thing we have, but since he has said that he has been successful treating these patients, I was wondering if you had heard from the patients individually? I believe him when he says that, but it’s upsetting that the guys he cures don’t post their recoveries on line.

I remember that Dr. Shippen said that a lot of post fin guys he saw were immune to TRT, and he couldn’t help them.

Personally, TRT, or hormone replacement in general, is by no means a fix for me. I can have very high testosterone, very low testosterone, it makes zero difference to my libido. For some people raising their testosterone might actually do the trick, for me I am sad to say it did nothing. The same goes for DHEA.

There’s a guy razorxtr who got his libido back high after seeing Crisler. He didn’t have most of our range of symptoms though. He seems to have moderately helped some others, he probably sees this as success.

I wish Crisler or Shippen would publish something or at least contact the FDA or similar about this as they have both seen scores of men about it (paying them good money).

Why would someone determine this when everyone’s DHT results seem normal?

Because I would assume that to raise Adiol G (a DHT metabolite), one would need to supplement DHT. He hasn’t tried to supplement DHT.
I take Andractim 2 or 3 times daily and it relieves all my symptoms. The more I take, the better I feel, the better erections, more acne etc.
Forgive me for expecting too much, but I’d expect a Hormone Replacement doctor to replace hormones.

Mew- as for having access to a laboratory and your proposition to analyse the androgen receptor; who said our suffering was due to a derangement in the androgen receptor? I understood that one chap here had his androgen receptors analysed, and they were fine.

My clinical response to DHT is quite dramatic. I’ve not been happier or more functional in the last 9 years. I sincerely hope our suffering is due to DHT insufficiency.

JN