RSA's Story

Member Stories
#1

COPY AND PASTE THE FOLLOWING INTO YOUR OWN PERSONAL PROFILE POST, then answer the questions.

  1. How did you find this forum?

Google

  1. What is your current age, height, weight?

25

  1. Do you excercise regularly? If so, what type of excercise?

Cardio 3 times per week, yoga, some weights

  1. What type of diet do you eat (vegetarian, meat eater, raw, fast-food/organic healthy)?

I try to eat healthy and have a balanced diet

  1. Why did you take Finasteride (hair loss, BPH, other)?

Hair loss

  1. For how long did you take Finasteride (weeks/months/years)?

4 months

  1. How old were you when you started Finasteride?

23

  1. How old were you when you quit?

23

  1. How did you quit (cold turkey or taper off)?

Cold turkey

  1. What type of Finasteride did you use – Propecia, Proscar, Fincar or other generic?

Proscar

  1. What dose did you take (eg. 1 mg/day, 1 mg every other day etc.)?

1.25mg per day

  1. How long into your use of Finasteride did you notice the onset of side effects?

3 months

  1. What side effects did you experience while on the drug that have yet to resolve since discontinuation?

Put an X beside all that apply:

Sexual
[x ] Loss of Libido / Sex Drive
[x] Erectile Dysfunction
[ ] Complete Impotence
[x] Loss of Morning Erections
[x ] Loss of Spontaneous Erections
[x ] Loss of Nocturnal Erections
[x ] Watery Ejaculate
[x ] Reduced Ejaculate
[ ] Inability to Ejaculate / Orgasm
[ ] Reduced Sperm Count / Motility

Mental
[x ] Emotional Blunting / Emotionally Flat
[ ] Difficulty Focusing / Concentrating
[ ] Confusion
[ ] Memory Loss / Forgetfullness
[ ] Stumbling over Words / Losing Train of Thought
[ ] Slurring of Speech
[ ] Lack of Motivation / Feeling Passive / Complacency
[x ] Extreme Anxiety / Panic Attacks
[x ] Depression / Melancholy

Physical
[x ] Penile Tissue Changes (narrowing, shrinkage, wrinkled)
[ ] Penis curvature / rotation on axis
[ ] Testicular Pain
[x ] Testicular Shrinkage / Loss of Fullness
[x ] Genital numbness / sensitivity decrease
[x ] Weight Gain
[ ] Gynecomastia (male breasts)
[ ] Muscle Wastage
[ ] Muscle Weakness
[ ] Joint Pain
[ ] Dry / Dark Circles under eyes

Misc
[ ] Prostate pain
[ ] Persistent Fatigue / Exhaustion
[ ] Stomach Pains / Digestion Problems
[ ] Constipation / “Poo Pellets”
[ ] Vision - Acuity Decrease / Blurriness
[ ] Increased hair loss
[ ] Frequent urination
[ ] Lowered body temperature

[ ] Other (please explain)

  1. What (if any) treatments have you undertaken to recover from your side effects since discontinuation of the drug?

I have taken Clomid for 6 weeks (100mg pd for 3 weeks and 50 mg per day for 3 weeks)
I have been taking and am currently taking DHEA 75mg per day

  1. If you have pre or post-Finasteride bloodtests, what hormonal changes have you encountered since discontinuing the drug (pls post your test results in the “Blood Tests” section and link to them in your post)?

My T has consistently been in the low-normal range for my age post-fin. (No pre fin results available) SHGB has been normal, oestrogen normal (for males), DHEA low, cortisone high, LH normal, FSH normal

  1. Anything not listed in the above questions you’d like to share about your experience with Finasteride?

  2. Tell us your story, in your own words, about your Finasteride usage and side effects experienced while on/off the drug.

I started losing my hair aged 23, which caused me anxiety that was aggravated by the fact that I have obsessive compulsive disorder. I like all the other guys on this forum took finasteride in the belief that it was a safe and effective remedy for hair loss. Unfortunately only the second point was true. After 3 months of usage I started noticing my libido was diminishing very rapidly. I recalled that the finasteride package insert said that this could occur but would usually cease after continued use and definitely upon cessation. So in my naivety, I continued taking finasteride for another month with no improvement in my libido. Only then did I realize that something was very wrong and I quit immediately.

After quitting I noticed a very sudden improvement in my libido 2 weeks after quitting (like so many others on this forum), but this only lasted 2-3 days and thereafter I crashed and soon after I developed other symptoms like genital shrinkage, reduced ejaculate, impotence, watery ejaculate, insomnia and depression.

After about 2 months after quitting I was getting extremely worried that the recovery that was "supposed’ to happen post quitting was not happening. I then consulted a urologist who dismissed my claims that finasteride was at the heart of my problems completely. This did not surprise me in the least as I realize that finasteride probably brings in half this guy’s income in consultation fees for all the middle age men he prescribes it to for BPH. This is a sad consequence of our medical system that doctors have become the pharmaceutical companies’ puppets. Added to that is the fact that the pharmaceutical companies don’t have our best interests at heart and are only motivated by money, i.e. its in their best interest that we get sick because that’s how they sell drugs. I wish I was not so naive before as I would have otherwise never had taken this drug in the first place.

I then went to see a well renowned endocrinologist in South Africa who was a lot more receptive to my claim that finasteride had done this to me. (He had recently attended a conference in Boston, where the problems caused by finasteride were discussed). I had blood tests done which primarily showed that I had low DHEA. He believed that this was the source of all my problems and prescribed me DHEA. After about 2 months with no improvement in my symptoms I returned to him and he put me on clomid for one week. I have to say that i did not experience any improvement while on the clomid but I did experience an improvement in my libido and erections 1 week later. However this only lasted a couple of weeks. I then returned to my endo who was buoyed by my brief improvement and then put me on clomid for another 6 weeks. While I was on the clomid, the I did experience an increase in muscle mass and became much leaner (this without any heavy training). The only androgenic improvement that I experienced was that my morning, spontaneous and night time erections had returned. After I finished the 6 week course I experience a brief improvement in libido (50% improvement) which lasted about 2 weeks. My morning erections became weaker though, and eventually ceased 1 month after quitting the clomid. I also had blood tests done after the 6 weeks which showed that my testosterone levels were double that of the maximum of the normal range, so it definitely did what it was supposed to do.

After the clomid did not work I had become disillusioned with conventional medicine that had F$%ked me up but couldn’t fix me. In my desperation I told my best friend about my problems who told me that his Mom had a SCIO machine which he testified really worked. I then visited my friend’s Mom and she put me on the scio. The results of the scio highlighted a number of imbalances and nutritional deficiencies in my body which I was quite impressed with. I realise that a lot of people will be sceptical about it (I was too) but I can only tell them that seeing is believing.

The scio highlighted the following:
I was depressed (true)
My adrenals were stressed (true)
My pituitary was stressed (unconfirmed, but made sense)
My thyroid gland was stressed (unconfirmed, but made sense)
My pineal gland was stressed (unconfirmed, but made sense)
My liver was stressed (unconfirmed, but made sense)
My reproductive organs were good (unconfirmed)
I had high mercury levels (true)
I was deficient in B group vitamins, calcium, omega 3 & 6s and potassium

It is now 15 months since I quit propecia and I believe that in order for me to get better, I need to get my body in the right state to get better. Because of this my focus has shifted to sorting out the adrenal fatigue, possible thyroid fatigue and detoxing the liver. An important part of this is controlling my stress levels and staying positive. If I am constantly stressed from this problem, my adrenals will become even more fatigued and it becomes a vicious cycle. That is why I have been supplementing with B group vitamins, omega 3&6s and calcium among other things.

I know that there is not something permanently wrong with me because throughout the past 15 months I have had numerous periods where I have had libido and good erections for a couple of days. So I know that my body does have the ability to improve. I therefore don’t think that this problem is due to some permanent structural change in our bodies like altered gene expression or androgen insensitivity but rather due to an imbalance in the chemicals that our bodies need to function correctly. If we find that imbalance, whatever it may be, we should get better. I constantly tell myself that other people have gotten better from this so why not me? The body after all wants to get better, it just needs the right conditions to do so.

I have recently been for heavy metal testing and have found that I have high copper and mercury levels (both are more than double the max of the normal range). I am therefore starting on chelation therapy as well as other detoxing protocols like using the sauna regularly, only drinking purified water, taking milk thistle extract, and avoiding swimming pools. I have read letsconvenience’s story which has given me hope that this might be the answer. I have to try, I have nothing to lose.
I will keep you guys posted on my progress in about 10 weeks, after I have completed the course of chelation.

I wish all of you the best in your recoveries.

#2

RSA,

Welcome to the forum. It’s unbeleivabel this drug has extended it’s wrath all the way out to southern Africa.

Did you discover this on your own and then read his post or did you read about the copper and mercury poisoning on this forum and then decide to have it tested?

Also, us updated on how your recovery is going. I will be doing this same test for heavy metal poisoning soon.

#3

The way i knew something was up with copper is i have a constant metallic taste in my mouth. How about you?

#4

the metallic taste? this is what I have been complaing of for months. Are u sure metallic taste is b/c of copper I think it was b/c my bones were loosing calcium in the blood.

#5

Any metallic taste in the mouth can be a number of heavy metal toxicities, including zinc. Its important not to rule anything out. For instance for some of us, it may be a case of low copper, high zinc (I doubt it though)…who knows…but somthing does seem to be a miss in the heavy metals department for a lot of us.

Heres the first link I looked for:

lifestyle.iloveindia.com/lounge/ … h-676.html

and another:

buzzle.com/articles/metallic … mouth.html

“Sometimes metallic taste can be produced by copper toxicity, lead poisoning, mercury poisoning and selenium overdose”

#6

I agree but in our case metals maybe effect of low T not that cause. healthy T is improtant for the absorption of minerals and metals to bones when it is low bones become weaker by releasing their minerals to blood.

#7

If it were a chicken and egg thing, I would say the metals are the chicken. This is just my opinion based on my knowledge.

Vitamins and minerals are responsible, in one way or another for just about everything in your body including your hormones. It is true, we are what eat (or ingest)…

Think about this: 30% of your testosterone production comes from zinc alone. Do some research on what happens in 3rd world countries where zinc is almost non-existant. They are dwarfed and the boys literally do not become men.

#8

Sadly yes. Where there is finasteride, I am sure you will find guys with this problem. Im also not the only one suffering from this in South Africa. I met another South African sufferer on an anabolic steroid forum who was asking the bodybuilders how they kickstart their HPTA after a cycle.

I did not discover the possible link to copper toxicity on my own. Rather it was letscoveniences recovery story that first got me interested. I then read up about copper toxicity on Dr Wilson’s website and saw the similarities between this and post-finasteride syndrome. I will keep you guys updated on my recovery. I really think that getting tested for all these heavy metals is a good idea for all of us.

I have not experienced any sort of metallic taste in my mouth yet. However if you have, I definitely think you should get tested for copper and other heavy metals.

#9

anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum … -no-libido

#10

Mr Plamer is me…thats where I first found out about SCIO.

#11

I also posted on this forum as Shakes. I tried to make contact with you to offer you some direction. Do you reside in South Africa as well?

#12

No I dont live there, but I know a guy who on there who I know separately who is a body builder.

#13

Ok. I was going to recommend a scio practitioner in Johannesburg to you but that obviously cant help you if you don’t live in SA.

#14

RSA - It’s been about a month since you started chelation therapy, what’s your take on it so far? How often do you get chelated? How do you feel afterwards? Any side effects so far that you have noticed?

#15

Hi guys

I have not updated yet because I am wary of giving people misleading information, as I have had periods in the past where I noticed an improvement only to crash shortly afterwards. That said, and please don’t hold me to this, my progress so far has been promising.

My detox regimen consists of the following:

EGCG (Green tea extract) - 1.5g per day (for chelating copper)
EDTA - Detoxamin suppositories 1 tablet 3 times per week (for mercury)
Vitamin C - 3000 mg per day (to chelate copper)
Magnesium (very good for adrenals)
Zinc - 60mg per day (since I am probably deficient if I have high copper, and helps remove copper as it competes with it for absorbtion)
Calcium (to replace calcium lost through chelating agents)
3 hard boiled eggs per day (the sulphur in the eggs is a very good chelator of copper. I find that the eggs help a lot and would definitely recommend them)
Coffee enemas - 2 times per week (this empties the gall bladder of bile and so aids in the excretion of copper from the body as copper is mainly excreted from the bile)
Saunas - 3 times per week (also a very good way to excrete copper from the body)
Multi mineral to replace other minerals lost through chelation

My regimen is a combination of what a homeopath prescribed to me (EGCG and EDTA), what letsconvenience said helped him (the hard boiled eggs and emptying the bowels) with the remaining treatments being recommended in literature that I have read on heavy metal toxicity. It might seem like overkill to do all these things but at this stage I do not know what works best so I want to cover all my angles. Also the majority of the methods that I am employing can do me no harm so it does not hurt to try them.

I recommend the following two websites (which were first recommended by letsconvenience) as great sources on symptoms and testing of and treatments for copper toxicity:

arltma.com/
drlwilson.com/articles/coppe … ndrome.htm

Progress report:

Depression:
So far the most noticeable area of improvement for me has been in my mood. For me the depression I have experienced post finasteride use has been by far the most difficult symptom to deal with, so any improvement here is a godsend. Normally my depression manifests itself at certain times of the day, usually in the afternoon and then subsides in the evening. This is what I have experienced almost every day for the past 18 months. However I am noticing that there are days now where I have no depression, and am sometimes quite jovial which I think is very promising.

Emotional Numbness:
Another horrible symptom which I experience is that the majority of the time I am emotionally numb and unable to experience the breadth of emotions that I used to. I don’t know if there are other people here who have experienced this but I really hate it because it is almost like I am not quite human anymore. I have also started to experience an improvement in this area as well. I definitely think that there is a link to the copper toxicity here because when I stumbled on the following exert I was absolutely astounded as it made perfect sense:

“As stated previously, the elimination of copper is frequently associated with a myriad of distressing symptoms. One of the major reasons for an increased awareness is that the elimination of excess copper often is accompanied by an increase in consciousness. Not only may a person become increasingly aware of physical aches and pains, but also previous and current emotional conflicts may rise to a higher level of consciousness.
These reactions occur because many copper-toxic individuals have been living in a lowered state of awareness. Copper is commonly referred to as the anaesthesia mineral, because like endorphins (opiate-like substances), accumulation of copper serves to diminish one’s awareness of both distress and pleasure. It is important to note that an increase in awareness is a necessary part of the healing process.7 although there may be some temporary anxiety or pain associated with the elimination of excess copper, usually one feels much better after the elimination process has been completed"

The full article can be found here: arltma.com/CopperElimDoc.htm

Libido
My libido is another area of my life that finasteride has massacred. I have started to experience a small improvement in this area as well.

Body temperature
In addition I have been monitoring my temperature over the past month and it has increased from a daily average of 36.4 to 36.6, this also adds support to the theory that a lot of our symptoms are related to thyroid functioning.

It’s still early days as I have read that it normally takes a minimum of 6 months to a couple of years to remove excess copper from the body, but based on my current progress I believe that there is much cause for optimism.

My optimism is primarily based on the following 3 points:

  1. We have a documented case of someone (letsconvenience) who had suffered long term side effects from finasteride posting a near-full recovery from all his symptoms because as a result of having removed the copper from his body. I don’t think people realize how significant this is. I don’t think I have read more than 5 complete recoveries from people suffering from long term side effects from finasteride on this forum, and for the ones that have recovered, we have no idea why they recovered.
  2. A large proportion of the symptoms that guys have been suffering from on this forum are documented symptoms of copper toxicity. These include depression, insomnia, brain fog, low libido, high oestrogen, low body temperature, anxiety, dry skin, decreased awareness, ED, to name a few. Surely this can’t be coincidence?
  3. I have had my copper levels tested and they came back high.
  4. I have started to experience the benefits of my detox regime.
    I don’t think that letsconvenience’s recovery has been met with that much optimism yet because it almost seems to be too good to be true. How can such a simple solution be the source of all of our problems? The thing is we all know of the dangers of mercury, lead and cadmium, so it is not that far-fetched for copper to have done this to us, based on the effects that other heavy metals have on the body. Also, it has been documented that once copper builds up in our tissues it is not easily excreted by the body on its own, and so it makes perfect sense that we have not recovered yet.

This is a long post but I wanted to fill you guys in on as much as possible. I have got a long way to go. I am under no illusions about this but I feel I am on the right path and at least running in the right direction. I will post another update in a couple of month’s time but I am happy to answer any questions related to this post.

#16

Because in my honest opinion, it’s not. This issue has nothing to do with vitamins and minerals, it has to do with androgens, something the drug interfered with when we took it: 5AR metabolism, androgen metabolism, androgen deprivation.

When two of the leading docs (Jacobs, Goldstein) treating patients suffering from persistent Finasteride side effects state they believe some form of androgen resistance may be a factor in our problem, when Dr. Crisler goes on video at a medical symposium noting many Ex-fin users present with normal Testosterone values and continue to suffer from all the symptoms of HYPOGONADISM (decreased production of androgens), that should give you a clue that this has absolutely nothing to do with vitamins, minerals, or any other naturopathic concept.

You guys (I won’t mention particulars here, but there is a small group that seems to disregard reality and grasp at straws or the theory du jour) completely ignore such comments and the science posted in the Finasteride Studies section about how the drug truly operates, disregard scientific discussion/focus on emotional-based discussion not backed by facts, and choose to concot pet theories out of thin air that fit the fad of the week, often based on nothing but “belief”.

Honestly, I WISH it were that simple man. Don’t you think if it were “that simple”, as you put it, that none of us would be here, docs would have figured this shit out long ago, and we’d all be on our way? No, of course not, because the situation we have been left in and the effect of the drug on our endocrine systems is not “that simple”, it is extremely complex. Not to mention nowhere in the scientific literature does Finasteride intake correlate with “heavy metals” or “copper toxicity”… ridiculous. Just some mumbo jumbo quackery sold by new-age snakeoil docs to get you to buy into their products, “scio machines” and “detox” regimens, while taking your money.

That is my personal opinion, and you’re entitled to yours of course. This problem will not be solved over a keyboard, as much as we’d like to believe. We can try and piece together interesting patterns, but ultimately we need to be evaluated in a research laboratory to try and determine the root cause. That is truly, and always will be, the bottom line until it happens.

#17

I appreciate your response Mew. I am sorry if I offended anybody. Do you agree that if body temperature is deviated away from normal then this can affect a whole host of chemical reactions in the body, including those concerned with hormones and enzymes, and more specifically androgens? Sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture to see the smallest details. Dr Goldstein recently told someone on this forum that he will never get better. If Dr Goldstein is to be believed then we are all wasting our time on this forum. Anyway I don’t want to get into a slinging match, we are all in the same boat here. If detoxing copper results in my recovery then guys on this forum deserve to know about it. Similarily if it does not result in me recovering then they also deserve to know about it. I am objective and honest enough to tell the truth.

#18

Appreciate your response as well.

Body temperature changes likely have to do with the hypothyroidism many men have reported experiencing on this drug, combined with the loss of Testosterone values post-drug. Numerous men have bloodwork showing hypothyroid values, as well as hypogonadal Testosterone values, both of which can negatively impact one’s metabolism and body temperature as a result. Lowered body temps are just another symptom of the underlying problem we are dealing with.

I believe what Dr. G was trying to say was that at this time, he did not have the answers as to why he was continuing to suffer from problems, despite treatments tried thus far. Until such time we have been researched in the lab, we will be no closer to answers. However, I would not take his statement as a sign we are all “Wasting our time” on this forum. To the contrary, we are sharing knowledge, research and collaborating with doctors to hopefully get us to that next stage of being able to have an actual research study done on us which will hopefully shed more light on our issues and finally provide some real answers.

And I appreciate your objectivity.

Unfortunately, there are some who latch onto any new “theory” that someone cooks up around here, based on nothing but blind faith, and then spam and disrupt the forum by being proponents of said theory as the solution to everyone’s problems – purely based on conjecture/belief and emotion, without any scientific evidence or research to back it up, not the least of which is studies connecting Finasteride usage to such.

In such cases, one has to question the validty of such claims, and it’s also where I have to draw the line and try to maintain a sense of reality and objectivity. Just because we don’t know the answers yet doesn’t mean you just believe in any little idea that someone puts forth, like a gullible fool. People should question, and need to be able to prove or at least provide ample scientific evidence that what they are proposing holds water – doubly so if they are attempting to connect such concepts to usage of Finasteride. And I’m sorry to say, but the “copper toxicity” concept definitely fits into this category.

The reason this is so important, is so that when talking with doctors and scientists, they will take you seriously as opposed to laughing in your face and dismissing you as some crazy hypochondriac (a situation many of us know all too well due to lack of medical awareness of persistent Finasteride side effects) – something which is very likely to occur if you have no peer-reviewed research to backup such “theories”, but choose to instead base your discussion on “belief”.

#19

Responses are inserted in caps:

Mew wrote:

Because in my honest opinion, it’s not. This issue has nothing to do with vitamins and minerals, it has to do with androgens, something the drug interfered with when we took it: 5AR metabolism, androgen metabolism, androgen deprivation. REMEMBER GUYS, THIS IS ALL JUST MEWS OPINION. THERE ARE MANY OPINIONS ON THIS PREDICAMENT, AS THERE ARE IN LIFE IN GENERAL.

When two of the leading docs (Jacobs, Goldstein) treating patients suffering from persistent Finasteride side effects state they believe some form of androgen resistance may be a factor in our problem, when Dr. Crisler goes on video at a medical symposium noting many Ex-fin users present with normal Testosterone values and continue to suffer from all the symptoms of HYPOGONADISM (decreased production of androgens), that should give you a clue that this has absolutely nothing to do with vitamins, minerals, or any other naturopathic concept. THERE ARE ONLY CLUES IN THIS. NO ONE KNOWS WHAT CAUSES THIS. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO FIND OUT. MEW IF YOU WANT TO PLACE YOUR FUTURE IN THE HANDS OF TWO DOCTORS THEN BE MY GUEST, BUT I PLAN ON BEING A LITTLE MORE PROACTIVE, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME TAKING THEIR OPINIONS ON BOARD.

You guys (I won’t mention particulars here, but there is a small group that seems to disregard reality and grasp at straws or the theory du jour) YOU MAY AS WELL JUST SAY MY NAME HERE. HERE WE GO AGAIN. completely ignore such comments and the science posted in the Finasteride Studies section about how the drug truly operates, disregard scientific discussion/focus on emotional-based discussion not backed by facts, and choose to concot pet theories out of thin air that fit the fad of the week, often based on nothing but “belief”. DO YOU HAVE ANY BETTER SOLUTIONS? WOULD YOU RATHER WE ALL JUST SIT HERE AND POST NOTHING, AND JUST AGREE WITH WHAT YOU WANT, YOUR OPINONS, LIKE A BUNCH OF YES MEN. NO THANKYOU.

Honestly, I WISH it were that simple man. Don’t you think if it were “that simple”, as you put it, that none of us would be here, docs would have figured this shit out long ago, and we’d all be on our way? HEAVY METAL AND IN FACT ANY TYPE OF TOXICITY IS NOT A “SIMPLE” THING TO TREAT. THIS IS WHY ONLY A HANDFULL OF PEOPLE KNOW HOW TO TREAT IT…No, of course not, because the situation we have been left in and the effect of the drug on our endocrine systems is not “that simple”, it is extremely complex. CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW COMPLEX THE PROBLEMS MUST BE WHEN A PERSON IS DEPRIVED OF BASIC VITAMINS AND MINERALS? Not to mention nowhere in the scientific literature does Finasteride intake correlate with “heavy metals” or “copper toxicity”… ridiculous. AGAIN THIS IS JUST YOUR OPINON MEW. IT CARRIES NO MORE WEIGHT THAN ANYONE ELSES. AND THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL LINKS THAT WE HAVE MADE ON THIS FORUM BETWEEN COPPER, ESTROGEN AND FINASTERIDE. Just some mumbo jumbo quackery sold by new-age snakeoil docs to get you to buy into their products, “scio machines” and “detox” regimens, while taking your money. AGAIN, JUST MEW’S OPINON!! WHAT YOU ARE NOT REALISING MEW, IS THAT DETOXIFICATION IS NOW A PART OF MAINSTREAM WESTERN MEDICINE. IT HAS BEEN PROVEN TO WORK, BUT SINCE IT IS SO “CUTTING EDGE”, ONLY A FEW OF THE MOST UP TO DATE DOCTORS KNOW HOW TO DO IT.

That is my personal opinion, and you’re entitled to yours of course. ARE WE? WELL HOW ABOUT CUTTING OUT TELLING PEOPLE TO “REFRAIN FROM POSTING THIS RUBBISH”? This problem will not be solved over a keyboard, as much as we’d like to believe. We can try and piece together interesting patterns, but ultimately we need to be evaluated in a research laboratory to try and determine the root cause. I WILL BE 6 FOOT UNDER BEFORE THIS EVER HAPPENS. MORE THAN LIKELY ANYWAY, BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN YOU SHOULD STOP TRYING, AND IT DOESNT MEAN THAT WE SHOULD NOT TRY EVERYTHYING ELSE THAT IS OUT THERE THAT MIGHT HELP US.That is truly, and always will be, the bottom line until it happens. AGAIN, JUST YOUR OPINON MEW…

MEW, YOU MAKE A LOT OF BOLD STATEMENTS AS IF YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO DO SO. LET ME REMIND YOU THAT LIKE MOST OF US HERE, YOU HAVE ZERO MEDICAL QUALIFICATIONS, SO YOUR OPINION IS ABOUT AS EDUCATED AS ANYONE ELSES HERE.

#20

Responses inserted below in caps:

Mew Wrote:

I believe what Dr. G was trying to say was that at this time, he did not have the answers as to why he was continuing to suffer from problems, despite treatments tried thus far. Until such time we have been researched in the lab, we will be no closer to answers. THIS IS A VERY NARROW MINDED COMMENT. ARE YOU SAYING THAT WE SHOULD ONLY STRIVE TO SOMEHOW GET IN A LABRATORY AND WE ARE DOOMED UNTIL THAT HAPPENS? However, I would not take his statement as a sign we are all “Wasting our time” on this forum. To the contrary, we are sharing knowledge, YES, WELL WE TRY research and collaborating with doctors AGAIN, THE COPPER/TOXIFICATION THEORY IS ACTUALLY BACKED BY A FEW DOCTORS to hopefully get us to that next stage of being able to have an actual research study done on us which will hopefully shed more light on our issues and finally provide some real answers.

And I appreciate your objectivity.

Unfortunately, there are some who latch onto any new “theory” that someone cooks up around here, based on nothing but blind faith, and then spam and disrupt the forum by being proponents of said theory as the solution to everyone’s problems – purely based on conjecture/belief and emotion, without any scientific evidence or research to back it up, not the least of which is studies connecting Finasteride usage to such. YOU ARE CATEGORICALLY WRONG HERE IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO ME. ARE YOU? IF SO, THEN AT NO TIME HAVE I STATED (OR ANYONE ELSE WITH THE COPPER THEORY) THAT THIS IS THE ANSWER TO EVERYONE’S PROBLEMS. IT DOES HOWEVER, MAKE SENSE AND I AM SIMPLY POINTING OUT HOW THIS MAY PLAY A PART IN PEOPLE’S SYMPTOMS, AS THEY COME ABOUT. SPAM? REALLY?? AM I TRYING TO SELL THIS IDEA TO PEOPLE FOR ANY PERSONAL GAIN OR AM I TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE? THERES A HUGE DIFFERENCE. YOU MAKE YOUR OWN MIND UP PEOPLE. I THINK YOU ARE REFERRING TO IT AS “SPAM” BECAUSE YOU DONT AGREE WITH IT, AND ITS YOUR WAY OF ONE DAY KICKING OFF WHOEVER TALKS ABOUT IT ON THESE FORUMS. HOWEVER, IT CLEARLY IS NOT SPAM OF ANY SORT.

COULD YOU PLEASE QUOTE SOMEONE ON WHEN THEY HAVE SAID THAT COPPER TOXICITY IS THE SOLUTION TO EVERYONE’S PROBLEMS. I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO THIS.

In such cases, one has to question the validty of such claims, and it’s also where I have to draw the line and try to maintain a sense of reality and objectivity. Just because we don’t know the answers yet doesn’t mean you just believe in any little idea that someone puts forth, like a gullible fool. People should question, and need to be able to prove or at least provide ample scientific evidence that what they are proposing holds water – doubly so if they are attempting to connect such concepts to usage of Finasteride. And I’m sorry to say, but the “copper toxicity” concept definitely fits into this category. AGAIN, YOUR OPINON MEW. AND WE’VE BEEN OVER THIS MANY TIMES ALREADY. YOU CANNOT FIND PROOF FOR SOMETHING THAT DOESNT EVEN HAVE A CURE. THIS IS THE POINT. WE ARE TRYING TO FIND A CURE. MOST CURES ARE FOUND BY ACCIDENT. LETS NOT CUT OUR OPTIONS SHORT DUE TO ONE MAN’S SHORT-SIGHTEDNESS AND INNABILITY TO SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE.

The reason this is so important, is so that when talking with doctors and scientists, they will take you seriously as opposed to laughing in your face and dismissing you as some crazy hypochondriac IN THIS INSTANCE I WOULD BLAME THE DOCTOR, NOT MY THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX. NO DOCTOR HAS ENOUGH TO TIME TO REALLY RESEARCH THIS CONDITION PROPERLY AS THEY HAVE A THOUSAND OTHER PATIENTS. IT CERTAINLY HELPS IF WE DO AS MUCH RESEARCH AS WE CAN AND ATTACK THIS AT EVERY ANGLE POSSIBLE.(a situation many of us know all too well due to lack of medical awareness of persistent Finasteride side effects) – something which is very likely to occur if you have no peer-reviewed research to backup such “theories”, but choose to instead base your discussion on “belief”. AGAIN WITH THE PEER REVEIWED REASEARCH. WE’VE BEEN OVER THIS. WASNT IT PEER REVIEWED RESEARCH THAT ALLOWED US TO TAKE THIS DRUG IN THE FIRST PLACE?? LOL