Is this what all the research is going to be about? i can barely understand what you have just written but it sounds like you have the whole thing figured out.
I will do that . But I remember I did some PMs and many (almost 90%) told me to have used SP/Fin or other supps before their problem started but they were nod accepting.one example is user Jansz in musclechatroom. when I mentioned SP use to him, He refused to accept this as the cause saying it is just a herbal product and his problem is a result of his old age. what a brain wash?
Awor I have seen some researches where tissue damage has occured after the use of fin/SP use and scar tissue has set in. Are you sure this is not the case with us?
if this is the case (Which I admit I am scared of very much) then I think our story is over. What option are there in that case?
is your team looking from this angle as well?
Post the research with links.
Ok the user Chillen has also used saw palmetto. I am not sure he used during TRT or before TRT. The problem is if you ask this questions some people get upset.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify that. So can you confirm that all of the links that M81 mentioned have in fact used some sort of 5ARI (fin, SP or other)?
Really?? Then, we have one more person who recovered from 5ARI damage by boosting his metabolic rate! This is great news, I think. Thanks for sharing this info.
who recovered? if you mean Chillin then what is he doing there? If this is recovery then evey body on TRT has recovered.
Chilln is the moderator of that forumā¦
Yeah Iām talking about chilln. Actually, we should define what we mean with ārecoveredā. chilln says that his libido, erections, energy, and cognitive processing are excellent. But he still has to continue boosting many of his hormones (pregnenolone, thyroid, T). So, letās say that heās being successfully treated, but he is not recovered in the sense that he still relies on hormonal therapy.
Ya, wouldnāt recovery = recovering from all side effects regardless of what is necessary to do so. A return to normalcy even if a crutch treatment was required.
recovery would be all sides lifted and no dependence on anythingā¦ AT ALLā¦
I suppose we all have our own definition. That is why treatments like the one discussed in this thread are so appealingā¦ If successful, it seemed to promise a life where we could forget about the hell we have been through without the constant reminder of shots, creams, or doctor visits for the rest of our lives.
I would truly like to experience a recovery the way you describe it toad.
Thatās true recovery. The vocabulary here is important to define. Not sure if any existing grades of recovery exist or if we should create them.
I got two more responses today. one after fin use and other says he abused drugs and other stuff.
Now it is clear
people are there when their TRT is not working and they have used some kind of 5ARI.
After all if some body is on TRT (because of testicles problems or other natural causes) and doing well, why would he come on the forum?
7- The Effect of 5 {alpha}-Reductase Inhibitors on Erectile Function ā Canguven and Burnett 29 (5): 514 ā Journal of Andrology
The main ingredient of Saw Palmetto is betasitosterol which is a potent 5 AR inhibitor.
āFurther evaluation of the role of DHT in the penis has been done at the penile morphologic level. Shen et al (2000) investigated the ultrastructural changes of the penile corpus cavernosum and tunica albuginea in rats representing 3 groups: sham control, castrated, and treated with finasteride. Four weeks later, blood samples were obtained for the determination of serum T and DHT levels, and penile tissues were taken for scanning electron microscopy. The T and DHT levels in castrated rats and the DHT level in finasteride-treated groups were significantly lower than those in the control group. In the castrated animals, there was a high degree of fibrosis in the corpus cavernosum with irregularly arranged collagenous fibers and a marked decrease in smooth muscle fibers, while in the DHT-inhibited group (finasteride-treated), the corpus cavernosum comprised a substantial amount of thick and irregularly arranged collagenous fibers, but the degree of fibrosis was less than that of the castration group (Shen et al, 2000). This work suggests that because finasteride inhibits the action of DHT but not T on the corporal cavernosal tissue, the degree of fibrosis was less in the DHT-inhibited group than in the castration group. In the castration group, the thickness of tunica albuginea decreased significantly and the elastic fibers were mostly supplanted by collagenous fibers, and in the DHT-inhibited group, the elastic fibers were replaced by disorganized and thick collagenous fibers. Since the tunica albuginea plays a major role in the erectile mechanism of the penis, the latter results offer an explanation for the presentation of ED in patients treated with 5ARIs.ā
I asked chilln if I could add his story to the list of recoveries/improvements through metabolic rate boosting, but he told me that he never used saw palmetto or any other 5ARI. Hereās his PM:
[i]Iāve looked back over all my records and Iāve never taken saw palmetto or any other 5 alpha reductase modulators.
I have transcribed every single supplement purchase, including the supplementās name, for all of my supplement purchases over the last 8 years. There are precisely zero 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors on that list.
In that time I have never taken a supplement which was purchased for me by anyone else.
I started supplementing for the very first time (as described above) when I had a major stress attack (included collapse). Before that episode the only supplements I had ever consumed were anti-bacterials to fight infections, and vitamin C tabs, and cough drops. Thatās absolutely it.[/i]
I may have taken saw palmetto. I trialled the use of natural isolate supplements to boost my testosteone for a few years before commencing hormone modulation therapy, but I have very little memory of all of the over 100 supplements I trialled, other than to say that none of them had a sustained effect (longer than two weeks).[/i]
and in an other pm to me
Iāve tried most of the herbs which modulate hormones, to evaluate their long term potential as alternatives to direct supplementation with hormones, and they have all come up short (by a long way).
Originally Posted by spstriken
how long have u been on TRT and what is ur expreince?
10 years, and over a hundred thousand dollars in labs and supps.[/i]
So clearly he is not denying taking SP. For me there is no reason for not believing that he has taken it (I had his old posts which I have deleted and I clrearly remeber he meintiond SP there )as he says he tried herbal stuff for few years before starting TRT. Saw palmetto is so common that it is used not only as single herb but also mixed with many other suplements.
m_81
donāt take any thing personal. If you feel you are doing good with chillnās theory, then keep doing. Maybe we will learn something new from you.
Please keep us updated.
This article may give us a new perspective on reversing methylation:
sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110711131326.htm
The idea is that a type of childhood leukemia is caused by a unique pattern of histone methylation, and that methylation is caused by an enzyme called Dot1l. This form of cancer was successfully treated in mice by inactivating Dot1l.
To quote the article:
āOur previous work suggested that Dot1l was the culprit behind the abnormal methylation patterns in MLL-rearranged cells,ā Armstrong noted. "We now know that these leukemias fully rely on this enzyme and the methylation pattern it generates in order to persist and grow.
āWhile methylation tags on histones are very difficult to manipulate directly,ā he added, āDot1l is much easier to target therapeutically.ā
So if methylation of our androgen receptor gene is our problem, this article makes me wonder if we could possibly identify an enzyme causing that methylation. Then we could look into ways to inactivate that enzyme rather than directly trying to demethylate.
Any thoughts?