Question regarding PFS sleep issues

General Discussion
#1

So I had a relapse of sorts just before Xmas ,after 6 months of doing fantastically in 2020. I first noticed tinnitus high pitched frequency increasing and I suddenly started laying awake until 2am or 3 and then getting 3-4 hours for one week.

This then got worse and shifted back into that dreadful 0- 2 hours a night crap that happened at the start of PFS . A couple of times had two nights in a row of 0 hours. Just the worst!

I’m not sure why I’m hit with this particular symptom more than others and it is by far my worst to deal with. February this year was particularly bad, I wasn’t sure how I was going to get through.

Fast forward 3 months and I’m actually doing a lot better now - magnesium glycinate changed the game for me .
After messing round with too much Zopiclone (not helpful and I feel- makes the insomnia cycle worse in the long run) Diphenhydramine (did nothing) and Pregabalin (was ok but not enough to tackle the issue ) I now take 2 Magnesium Glycinate before bed and this can get me off to sleep , if I wake in the night I take a couple or sprays of CBD oil and usually get off again . I’m pulling in around 5-6 hours a night, which considering what I have been through, is acceptable for me.

I’m glad to be doing better but as you can imagine I’m terrified of this happening again further down the road .
I want to know what’s causing the terrible insomnia episodes and why they occur up to 1 1/2 years still after discontinuation of finasteride.

My guess is Finasteride shifts the Glutamate axis in the brain in some people , and that’s why there’s a few people in here that seem to get sleep issues more than others .
This theory seems to be proven by Magnesium Glycinate changing the game : as magnesium is supposed to modulate GABA , cortisol and the glycine that comes from the glycinate part offsets the Glutamate imbalance.

But what keeps triggering the glutamate imbalance so long after discontinuation? Surely it can’t be foods I’m eating ? Is it Anti cholinergenic meds? (They are supposed to help with insomnia ! :man_shrugging:)
Or is it something that’s just out of my control at the moment that might get better with time??

**(im no longer taking anti choline meds like Amitriptyline or diphenhydramine)

Any thoughts ???

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#2
  • my main question around foods are - is it foods that I’m eating that are high in glutamate that could be causing this ? Or would that not be enough to cause issues this severe?
#3

I had terrible sleep at first, it got better slowly and then fluctuates from time to time. I can currently expect 6 hours sleep unbroken, sometimes I can get back to sleep for a bit more, but generally if I wake up, it will take me a couple of hours to get back to sleep.

I take nothing, but avoid 5ar foods.

I wasn’t sure what foods might have glutamate in so I Googled.

From the list of ten things there, I never eat mushrooms - they can be strong 5ar inhibitors and I know at least one person here who had a really bad reaction to them.

I also avoid Soy. This is another food which has caused crashes.

I used to avoid nuts, but I don’t think they cause me problems and have slowly reintroduced them. I eat everything else on the list there.

I can’t tell you that doing x, y or z will or won’t help, but that’s my experience. Again, I take no supplements, which may change things.

#4

I hear ya , sometimes it’s about introducing things slowly and see how you react or tolerate them .

Thanks for the glutamate list - I definitely avoid MSG at all costs , plus those preservative isolates etc

I do eat tomatoes , grapes , mushrooms etc

Interesting to read blueberries protect against glutamate toxicity …in LA I used to live off blueberries but don’t eat them too much now I’m in UK again.

Also good to know your sleep improved over time , I read others has too . Even mine did for 6 months last year!
Hopefully this time I’m on to a winner and there will be no further major issues :crossed_fingers:

5/6 hours and I can function , occasional insomnia everyone has that sometimes anyways and it’s not too bad here and there.

#5

Above post is for @Greek :ok_hand:

#6

Have a read of the post below regarding GABA and gultamate. Reducing dietary intake of the ammino acid glutamate may not be the best approach. Instead you may consider supplementing with B6 to increase the conversion to GABA, and lemon balm + rosemary to decrease the conversion of GABA into glutamate.

I personally suspect your issues may be due to an imbalance in Allosteric modulation of the GABA receptors. Too little allosteric modulation results in anxiety, feeling wired, insomnia, overstimulated, etc, and I suspect too much allosteric modulation results in anhedonia, apathy, etc. There is a sweet spot, see below.

Allopregnanlone is a positive allosteric modulator of the GABA-a receptor and is suspected to be deficient / at an imbalance with post finasteride syndrome, given it is a 5ar metabolite of progesterone. Low allopregnanlone may be causing your issues. HCG+FSH would likely be the best point of call to repair neurosteroidgensis. Other items include very low dose fluoxetine (SSRI be careful), progesterone (HPTA suppressive however) and GHB (illegal) - not recommending you to take these, just informing you.

Some things to help with sleep:

  • CBD oil
  • Phosphatidylserine (blunts HPA axis)
  • Ashwagandha Sensoril (positive allosteric modulator)
  • Glycine & Taurine (increases allopregnanlone)

I am no expert, I am just trying to figure this out myself as I am dealing with a similar issue.

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#7

For certain it is the food you eat. Start a diary of what you eat and be mindful of the effects. Sometimes they come a day or two later. Perhaps start with fasting for a day or two then Start introducing foods sequentially and noting any reactions.

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#8

Do you have a sleep watch or app? When I started using Fitbit and was able to quantify my sleep, I learned that nights where i perceived to have slept 3 hours turned out to be 5 or more. Just a perspective worth sharing.

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#9

Really really helpful post- thank you for this info !

I’m about to try Taurine soon …I take 200mg of magnesium about 9pm , if I took a taurine pilll at 11pm this should be good? It seems like they are ok to take on the same night as some supplements contain both .

I used CBD oil …most of the time it works pretty good !

#10

Did you notice foods in particular that upset your situation ? Are some worse than others??

#11

I don’t …although I know what you mean as I think this scenario happens a lot (where we think we haven’t slept but we actually have !)

When insomnia is bad, Star Trek Next Generation is my GO TO Netflix series to have on in the background.
I noticed a couple of times that whole episodes would have gone by and I didn’t remember watching them the night before …so I must have drifted off for at least an hour here and there.
It does happen ! I need to get a Fitbit for sure though
Has sleep issues been a part of your PFS too?

#12

Yes sleep has been issue amongst many other things.