Question from a newbie - low Testosterone levels after quitting

General Discussion
#1

Hello!

I have been using propecia and later on proscar for 6,5 years and stopped using 4 days ago. I went to the doctor because I had the typical side effects mentioned here and the blood test reveiled that my testosterone was 9,2 (normal scale 10-30?) and free T 191 (should be over 250?)

Is this common to have a low T while using the drug? The doctor wanted me to start usinf Testogel but is that wise. Is it better to see if the T rises without testogel now that I have quit?

Thank you very much.

#2

When did you get your bloodtests done?

  • while you were ON Finasteride (how long ago)
  • or after you quit (how long ago)?
  • what time were they taken?

Can you post the results of all tests taken, with ranges?

Typically, TOTAL Testosterone levels go up while on the drug by 10-20%, likely due to less DHT being in the bloodstream. The hypothalamus-pituitary axis senses this, and sends LH (Luteinizing Hormone) to your testes to tell them to increase Testosterone output to compensate.

However – despite elevated Total T levels, it seems for certain guys, the more critical FREE Testosterone (2% of which is actually available to the body at any given time) can be driven down.

This is because Finasteride has been documented to raise estrogen levels and shift androgen/estrogen ratio in men to be in favor of estrogens, especially the longer you are on it. Increased Estrogen levels are also linked with increased SHBG.

Elevated Estrogen levels surpress Total/Free Testosterone levels due to negative feedback on the Hypothalamus-Pituitary Axis. Elevated SHBG can bind to Free Testosterone, leaving you with low levels of Free T.

The problem for guys here is that after quitting, their elevated Total T levels and often Free T levels usually drop into the toilet and they experience Secondary Hypogonadism.

Some guys remain that way indefinitely, for others T levels slowly rise back up somewhat… but not necessarily to where they were before they took the drug, since they have no baseline bloodtests to compare their T levels against.

So the million dollar question for us here is, WHY do T levels drop so low after quitting, and there are lots of theories on the site about this.

Now to your situation:

  1. Did he test your ESTROGEN levels?:
  • Estradiol, Estrone, Estriol, Total Estrogens

If not you should get those tested (especially Estradiol, Estrone) as they may be skyhigh and need to be brought down, which may raise help in raising your Testosterone (both free and Total).

  1. Did you get SHBG tested? If not, you will not have the complete picture as to why your Free T is so low. There are treatments (Danazol) that can supposedly lower elevated SHBG, but may lower Testosterone levels in the process.

No, not right off the bat if you can help it.

There are other drug treatments (Clomid, Tamoxifen, hCG – human chorionic gonadotropin) which can help restore your natural T levels so you won’t have to rely on Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) for life.

TRT is often a lifelong commitment if you wish to maintain your T levels with it. TRT eventually shuts down your own Testosterone production since the HTPA senses the external T and thinks it doesn’t need to make anymore. TRT can also make you infertile while on it since your nuts will stop making sperm, and atrophy as a result of not making Testosterone. If you plan to take TRT, you should take hCG concurrently with it to maintain fertility and testicular size.

Treatments & studies showing how Clomid and hCG can be used to boost your own T production are listed in the Drug Therapy and Hormone Replacement forum – propeciahelp.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5

These will come in handy if you need to convince your doc. If he can’t be convinced, you will need to find one who is willing to treat you with such treatments, or consider seeing Dr. Shippen or Dr. Crisler in the USA. Their contact info is in the Doctors section.

For some guys T will go up with time, for others it doesn’t… nobody can say.

But if you feel like complete crap in the meantime and continue to suffer side effects for weeks and months, and continue to have low T levels, probably best to seek some treatment… but it’s really up to you, if you feel comfortable with taking more drugs to try and correct the issue, or waiting it out to see if things improve on their own. .

I suggest you read through the FAQ for more info on the situation you are facing:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7

Good luck, keep us posted.

#3

Thank you for your answers!

The blood tests were taken before I quit (June 16.). They were taken in the morning (about 9.00 am.)

I called the doctor’s office and they will send the results to me but their policy is not to tell results on the phone. However they said that the tests included testosterone, thyroid and basic blood tests, so I assume estrogens were not tested.

If I have my estrogens tested and they are high - is it possible that they will come down now that I have quit the drug? If they need to be brought down with drugs, could you tell me are there any side effects or risks with this kind of procedure?

I remember the doctor also telling me that my LH was low ot somewhat low. I will post the results when I get them, probably next week.

The doctor’s opinion was that my testicles are just not working the right way and there might me various reasons for that but most likely the reason cannot be pin pointed ever.

I have began lifting weights again after a 9 month break. I also bought bulgarian tribulus and super miraforte supplements but I am not sure whether I should use them at this point? I also started taking ZMA in the evening.

#4

Tribulus in your case, will most likely cause gyno, it does nothing for test but increases e2 its a no go in your situation.

thinkmuscle.com/articles/hay … estris.htm

#5

Thanks for your comment and link!

I bought this product:

reflex-nutrition.com/store.php?sub=3&id=20

It is SUPPOSED to be very good quality and made from extract which is not supposed cause problems if I understood the article above correctly. I was thinking that it might be a good thing if it boosted my low LH…?

#6

Do you have symptoms of gynecomastia? If not, and since your T is so low, it is possible you do not have an Estrogen issue. Regardless as T levels come down, estrogen levels should come down as well over time.

There are natural supplements which claim to reduce E2 (Estradiol) safely:

  • DIM (diindolyl-methane): natural extract from brocolli
  • I3C: another compound from brocolli
  • Chrysin: supposedly works best in conjunction with Piperine

More details on these supplements can be found in Natural Supplements section of this website.

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36

Drug wise, Arimidex is usually prescribed by docs to bring down high E2 (Estradiol) levels. It is advisable that you work with a medical professional should you decide to pursue this route. However, be aware that driving E2 too low can cause problems in men as well as women.

Tamoxifen, a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM), may also be used to try and boost Testosterone levels and bring down E2 levels, as it can re-sensitize the pituitary to gonadotropins (GnRH).

This drug is commonly used by bodybuilders to combat gynecomastia while on steroids, or after discontinuing a cycle to try and get their HTPA back on-line to produce endogeneous Testosterone.

Most docs do not prescribe this drug to men as it is meant for women, but Dr Crisler has used it to successfully restore the ex-Finasteride user “galapagos” testosterone levels from hypogonadal to mid-range:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … highlight=

There is a reason: you are either suffering from Primary Hypogonadism (testicular failure) or Secondary Hypogonadism (pituitary failure, no longer sending enough LH/FSH).

The reason as to WHY these problems are occuring is the million dollar question many here would like answered, and hence the existence of this website, Finasteride Studies, and Theories section: to try and investigate how Finasteride works, and what it might’ve done to cause our condition.

Let’s just say that it can affect many hormones and it may be more than just a Testosterone/Estradiol issue at play. SHBG, Prolactin, TSH, Progesterone, DHT, and many other hormones and pathways can be impacted by this drug, not to mention the prostate shrinkage, possible 5AR neurosteroid inhibition, and affects on Nitric Oxide production and GABA-A receptors.

Either way I’d consider getting additional bloodwork done a month or two from now, since you are off the drug, to see where things stand.

Continue on your weight training program, and try and boost T naturally. If problems persist, consider seeing the docs I previously mentioned to try and boost T via drug treatments, or try convincing your own docs with studies you’ve printed from this site.

Good luck.

#7

I got my blood test results today. I need to demand more tests taken the next time which is at the end of July.

S-TSH: 1.9 (normal range 0.4 - 4,5)
S-T4-V: 19.8 (normal range 11 - 23)
S-LH: 2.3: (normal range 2.5 - 7)
S-testo-vl: 191 (normal range 200 - 580)
B-Hb: 152 (normal range 134 - 167)
B-HKR: 0.45 (normal range 0.39 - 0.5)
E-MCV: 87 (normal range 82 - 98)
E-MCH: 29 (normal range 27 - 33)
fB-leuk: 6.1 (normal range 3.4 - 8.2)
B-Trom: 198 (normal range 150 - 360)
S-Testo: 9.2 (normal range 10 - 38)
S-SHBG: 14 (normal range 13 - 71)

What do you think?

I’m about 15 kilos (about 35 lb) overweight and need to lose weight. I also have “manboobs” but I think it’s just fat, since the texture feels soft and fat-like.

I would really appreciate if you commented these results because I don’t really know what they are indicating.

#8

Are you from Finland?
You have low testosterone. Secondary hypogonadism as your LH is low.

#9

Yeah, I’m from Finland.

#10

Tribulus Terrestris

Tribulus terrestris is a prostrate, matforming plant. Although it has been used by the Chinese for thousands of years, little was scientifically known about it until recently. Tribulus is said to increase testosterone levels by as much as 30%, especially when taken in conjunction with sopharma. The primary mechanism of action to explain this phenomenon is that tribulus stimulates the secretion of lutenizing hormone (LH) from the anterior pituitary gland. This in turn stimulates testosterone production, as well as growth hormone and estradiol. Therefore, tribulus can easily stimulate gynecomastia (gyno) and insulin resistance. This is very negative for bodybuilders. In women, tribulus stimulates follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and estradiol, but not testosterone. 750-1200 mg/day dosages are not uncommon and is usually stacked with 100 mg/day of DHEA (discussed later) and 100 mg/day of androstenedione. Although the rise in testosterone levels may sound attractive to many athletes, the side effects are much more dire than gynecomastia and insulin resistance. Tribulus Terrestris has been shown to dilate the coronary arteries (Wang, 1990) and has a diuretic effect (Arcasoy, 1998). In both cases, this can put the athlete in a dangerous state. Bourke (1995) found that severe nervous and muscular locomotor disorders are directly associated with tribulus terrestris ingestion. The production of bile stones is also greatly enhanced (Miles, 1994) due to hyperplasia of the bile ducts and diffuse swelling of hepatocytes (Tapia, 1994).
Gauthaman et al. (2005) suggests that tribulus stimulates androgen production, an effect similar to that of prohormones and prosteroids. For more on prohormones, read The Truth About Prohormones. As noted above, tribulus increases the risk of developing gynecomastia. Jameel et al. (2004) confirms this by stating that the increased incidence of gynecomastia in young male athletes is a direct result of the increased use of steroids and tribulus terrestris. Other evidence suggests that the heavy diuretic effect of tribulus can cause kidney damage.

Tribulus also contains a compound called saponin, which is a class of glucosides. Saponin derived from tribulus has been shown by Li et al. (2002) to elicit a hypoglycemic effect. Serum glucose is significantly lowered with tribulus supplementation, which has negative effects on insulin sensitivity and central nervous system function (the CNS runs solely on blood glucose). A result of prolonged tribulus supplementation may be diabetes. Further investigations by the same researchers found that tribulus lowers plasma HDL (“good” cholesterol) levels and severely restricts gluconeogenesis activity in the liver. Antonio et al. (2000) assessed the effect of tribulus supplementation (in high doses) on trained male athletes. Over the course of the investigation, there were no changes in body weight, percentage fat, total body water, dietary intake, or mood states in either group. Slight increases in muscle strength were found in the tribulus group compared to the placebo, but the results were not significant. Antonio and his associates concluded: “Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in resistance-trained males.”

Based on the available evidence, tribulus terrestris is an extremely dangerous supplement and cannot be used in a safe manner. Its supplementation should be avoided by all athletes at all times.

#11

Popo, please provide a link for the above text so we can see where you got it from.