Proviron is on its way…will keep the forum updated as I start it sometime next week.
Hey Antcraven if ur reading this than pls share your Proviron update.
Jack
Hey guys…started Proviron this past Sat (11/18)…two days now (50mg/day).
I believe it’ll take some time for any results…but I’ll keep the group updated regardless (good or bad).
Jack
proviron update. I have been taking one pill 25mg every day for a week then I take a week off and Then I take another week of it. Also every day I am taking 6 300mg aged garlic pills to increase testosterone production. I have to say since doing this I notice a change in sleep patterns as I no longer get night sweats. Also I am noticing more sexual thoughts. No change in erectile function however. Doing a follow up with melman regarding a abnormal blood flow. Anyway my goal is to return my T production to around 500ng as it is now only 350ng. I hope that I can boost my body to produce a mod range amount of T. doing the garlic and proviron treatment I am noticing a lot more semen volume than without. So I can tell its stimulating my prostate to make seminal fluid. In a few months I am going to get my sperm counted again.
This is very encouraging Ant… has this affected your ED? Penile tissues/shrinkage/size? Are you getting more libido/sex drive?
Please keep us updated.
Hows the proverin going Ant and Jack? Any updates…good…bad…?
I have opted out of taking the Proviron as my Dr has prescribed me Tamoxifen (novladex). I will be giving that a chance to combat the high total estrogens (as insurance covers the tamoxifen). I have the proviron here…am actually gonna give it to a fellow member.
I reckon your on the right track there. Please keep us posted.
Is it better to eat raw garlic or to take garlic pills?
Josh,
it is better to eat raw garlic - added freshly crushed or chopped after cooking as some of the compounds released when the garlic is crushed are short-lived. with experimentation you will find some foods hide the taste better.
it is better in my opinion to get aged garlic pills. Kyolic has the best ones. That is the name of the company they have organic aged garlic pills…the best out there. Used in most of the scientific studies.
Used in the study for rasing testosterone and also used in studies combatting cancer.
both things we could use.
Garlic is not an answer, any influcne on the HPTA or testicles is minimal to say the least. and it is highly unlikley that Proviron is helpful either.
Proviron has a very short half life in the body and is usually only helpful as TRT in men of a certain age with mild testosterone deficiency. Cycling it is simply not going to do anything whatsoever either. If anyone wants to know why I could detail (yawn).
Tamoxifen might have some effect depending on the underlying problems as evidcned in pathology, but again is often not the answer for a whole host of reasons, again something I could detail if needs be.
Can you post your pathology results here rockin813?
You seem eager for me to discuss such matters on the forum, so we could give it a go in a case of one and see how we go?
(in editing this post will I see a double post as usual? My eyesight is bad and can result in a few too many typos left in, but I certainly don’t need to see a double post lol.
Hypo
Just prior to quitting propecia (7 yrs 1mg daily) my T was 276 (rr 260-1000). after quitting T rose to 440 and has remained there since. E2 is 12 (rr<54), LH is 3-4 (rr 2-9), fsh is 5-7 (rr 2-18). sperm analysis is ok…count 180 mill (100-400), motility so so 50% (50%-100%). prolactin is mid range. shgb is 25 (10-75). LDL cholesterol is 121 (100max), rest of lipids fall in range. dht is 60 (25-80).
Tried TRT gel…didn’t feel ‘well’ on it and quit after 10 days…libido/energy soared sky high shortly after but tapered off within a few days.
Tried TRT injections for 10 weeks…100mg/wk. no improvement. all the while E2 was somewhat high.
Tried Tamox 20mg (2 10mg doses am/pm) and felt like shit after a few days so discontinued.
5’10" 186lbs…great shape with exception of stomach. intital view of stomach screams metabolic x syndrome.
that’s all i know off top of my head.
I want to be VERY careful here;
It is all too easy to go jumping in head first and giving some half baked answer (mixing analogies I know).
Firstly;
What time of day was your pathology taken? Specific date and times of ALL pathology helps me help you
Secondly;
Is this all the pathology that has been taken, if not can you include all results?
Thirdly;
I would like to see a DHT result in there and in conjunction with other people’s concerns- also TSH, Free T3 and cortisol (24 urine if possible). Perhaps something for the future. On which note, if your bloods are from quite some time ago and symptoms differ- new bloods are more reflective of your current endocrine status, so you might want to think about that.
Fourthly;
Somewhat backtracking- what pathology do you have from your time on the gel and the injections?
It is imperative to know what happened to you on treatment in order to work out what might have went wrong. What you referred to in terms of dipping libido shortly after commencement of TRT could be due to a number of factors, placebo is one. More common in my experience is an upward expression of estradiol as a result of aromatase and resultant negative feedback at the HPTA that reduces our own testosterone production and overall testosterone levels whilst increased estradiol blocks androgen receptors and lowers the responsiveness to TRT…a cascade of events. This might have happened in your case- you certain mentioned estradiol increases.
Give me the tools to help you- I need all the pathology on and off treatments and times of bloods drawn.
I don’t want to give you some cack handed half baked help.
The better the information the I am given to work with the greater the odds in me being able to help. If the information I am given is poor or incomplete I will be reduced to possibles/speculation and advice on that basis- I’d like something firmer as I am sure you would.
Fifth;
I am posting a hypogonadal symptoms checklist in the main forum- and one for you to have a look at below;
It was created by a world leading andrologist Dr Malcom Carruthers MD, FRCPath, MRCGP (author of the Testosterone Revolution and Androgen Deficiency in the Adult Male- I recommend reading both).
This is a checklist that gives people an idea as to how likely it is that hypogoandism or related issues exist. Although many of the symptoms are non specific, when added together they offer a great deal of specificity. The checklist was used and I believe is still used by Dr Carruthers in his initial andrology appointments.
I would like to see how you fair with it and it is something you can have a go at prior to getting back to me on this post.
Score a 0 for none, 1 for slight, 2 for medium, 3 for severe and 4 for extreme for each question and then add up the total score
1
Fatigue, tiredness or loss of energy
2
Depression, low or negative mood
3
Irritability, anger or bad temper
4
Anxiety or nervousness
5
Loss of Memory or concentration
6
Relationship problem with partner
7
Loss of sex drive or libido
8
Erection or problems reaching orgasm
9
Dry skin on face or hands
10
Excessive sweating, day or night
11
Backache, joint pains or stiffness
12
Heavy drinking past or present
13
Loss of fitness
14
Feeling Overstressed
15
The age you feel scoring 0 for 30s, 1 for 40s, 2 for 50s, 3 for 60s and 4 for 70s
If you have had adult mumps, orchitis or other testicular problems, a prostate operation or inflammation, persistent urinary infection or vasectomy add another 4 to your overall score.
You do not have to divulge specifics of the questionnaire if you do not wish as I can work off the overall score. Let me know how you get on with that and post the other information and we can see where we are.
hypo
thanks for your interest. not sure what ur background is, but it’s nice of u to get so involved off the bat.
as for my labs…i made sure they were all done 1st thing in the AM…labs were taken between 7am and 9am everytime. iv had my coritsol checked and they were smack in the middle of the AM range. I had TSH and FT4 checked…normal range, thought i may be subclinical hypoThyroidism but after thyroid scan that confirmed im not.
as for labs while on TRT…yes, my HPTA did shut down as my FSH dropped to 0.3 and LH was <1. estradiol did jump (76 range <54) and dr prescribed arimidex. but i didn’t want to do the whole juggling act with AIs and TRT…plus wife and i are trying to concieve. my #s resumed to sub normal (T/LH/FSH) so i’m staying there and away from TRT. whatever i do try will be non-prescriptive.
as for dip in libido during treatment…it’s not placebo. not having nocturnals and no morning erections suggest hormonal issues (amongst other things…but not placebo). also my increased feeling of well being post treatment is not placebo either…as nocturnals were there as were morning erections, force of ejaculate, and spontaneous erections were present.
ive researched hypogonadism inside and out…plus my wife is a resident in internal medicine with access to licensed medical website so my knowledge is somewhat decent regarding hormones. it seems to me both times i stopped treatment (TRT and Tamox) i felt great shortly afterwards. I took a multivitamin around the same time and connected the two…but i was wrong. i think it’s my hpta somewhat getting suppressed and then working again…before going lazy like before. LH at 3 with T of 400 or so begs me to wonder how i would be if my LH was to rise to 7 or 8…i know my testicles can handle it as they were working fine during my brief days of well being (post TRT and Tamox treatment).
this post my be confusing…sorry if it is. i just don’t think there’s anything to try other than natural remedies to increase my T or reduce my Total Estrogens (143 range <130). i started calcium D glucarate for that. also looking to try Trib to raise my LH. i know many tried and failed…but than again i have different symptoms than many on the forum. so who really knows.
make sense ? lol
Frankly?
No.
You know what happened to you in terms of symptoms, times, dates etc, but you do not know what is going wrong. I am trying to help find out what went wrong but;
Because I do not know how matters proceeded as well as you do, I need things laid out with clarity/as I requested. You have replied in the form of a conversation and half way through dropped some blood results in….
I still do not have anything like an accurate picture in terms of chronology of bloods and what went on.
I am not sure at all whether or not I have all the bloods? I am not sure if I have all the bloods relating to times on TRT use or whether the bloods are from early on in TRT use when you felt well or whether the bloods were from late on in TRT when you felt bad. I don’t even know if the bloods on TRT included arimidex use and you have not completed a hypogonadal checklist to evaluate the severity of your symptoms.
I need a clear and brief chronology detailing all blood results and medications taken at that time and also how you felt generally at these times……a small grouped list/table should do it and I need the symptomatic checklist to be completed to have an idea of how you are now- in terms of severity of symptoms.
On a separate note;
I also have no DHT (very important and the principle hormone lowered by finasteride) or free T3 result (the active thyroid hormone that is important) or 24 hour urinary cortisol test (the best assessment of cortisol)
Though I admit this is something you could hardly drag up if you have not had these undertaken- one for the future.
So I can comment on some things you have said but in all honesty I need you to get back to me with the details I have stated above (I know the language is curt- sorry but I want to help properly not half arsed).
Anyway some remarks I can comment upon;
Between 7 and 9am is in line with the natural circadian hormonal rhythm that the reference ranges are based upon. In plain language the tests were undertaken at the correct time. To correctly evaluate the thyroid you need a free T3 test, free T4 means very little. If you wanted to be ultra sure that there was no thyroid problem here you would also want to test for thyroid antibodies.
I think I know why TRT didn’t work for you, or at least why it would have been unlikely to work just from the picture I do have. But I will save it until you give me a clear picture to avoid making any daft errors.
If you and your wife are looking to have a baby then there are far better options than simply coming off TRT- I will detail them for you after I get a better picture of matters/as part of my next post.
Correct. If you look back at what I wrote you will see that I said something else was more likely than the placebo effect. I have seen what you have described many, many times on TRT and it is an effect that outstrips the placebo effect in terms of statistical likelihood.
Also morning erections, having or the lack thereof, are a good indicator as to whether erectile dysfunction is physiological or psychological in origin as they rule out issues such as performance anxiety. If a man does not have morning erections it indicates a physiological cause. If erections dip or increase during treatment that indicate that hormones are at the very least part of if not all of the issue. This is something well detailed in Dr Malcom Carruthers book The Testosterone Syndrome and something I understand from what has happened to myself and other men.
I guarantee that you know far less than what you think you do. From the fuzzy picture I see so far you know very little about hypogonadism. Don’t take offence, that is a good thing because if you did know as much as you think you do then perhaps an answer would be too difficult to find. Whereas I think I can help you and to a degree you and your wife a great deal.
This is something I will prove to you in the course of these mails.
I might be an irritating so and so- but you will benefit from that fact I am sure.
Get back to me as quick as you can and I can start explaining how I think your problems have come about on TRT. I can detail how you might get TRT to work and I can detail how you and your wife can improve your chances of conception whilst hopefully affording you a greater sense of well being.
hypo, thanks for the post. quite honestly, i don’t have the drive to post all my bloods before, during, and after treatment. i’m not interested in supplementing TRT with HCG to improve my chances of conception. also, i don’t have DHT while on propecia. I had it taken during my trial of TRT gel, and it was 800 (560 max range) and my E2 was 17 (<54)…so i know propecia was out of my system as the T converted to DHT as its supposed to. DHT in Nov (a good 8 weeks of TRT injections) was 60 (25-80 range) so im not deficient there as well.
as for hypogonadism…im not sure there’s much to it to understand and learn. ur either primary or secondary. i don’t fit into neither (as i once thought i did)…my LH is in the normal range as is FSH, prolactin is normal, pituitary MRI normal, sperm analysis normal/good, T mid range,etc. i know im not primary simply by my sperm analysis and mid level T numbers. what more is there to know…although, if i did fall into primary or secondary than yes, i’m sure there’s more to understand than the basics. i brought hypogonadism to this board as a possible diagnosis…but was quickly marked as a merck employee trying to protect finasteride and blame the issues on something else.
i don’t mean to sound ungrateful, but I’ve been through the whole gammit regarding this…and read about several other treatment options. ive been on the hypo2 yahoo board for close to 2 years now. i don’t feel like the answer is to find out if .5mg arimidex every 4 days is the right amount to keep ur E2 in the right ‘zone’ and to use morning erections as baseline. anyone who doesn’t use nocturnals/morning erections as differentiator between physchological or physiological issues has much to learn. also HCG shots every 3 days of 500ius is the way i want to live my life.
i’ve had times where I felt incredible…and it was all the while off any prescriptions. so i know after 10 weeks of 100mg/wk injections of TRT (and earlier trial of 1 tube testim1% TRT regimen) is not something i’m gonna try. i also did have thyroid antibodies (tpo and the other i forget) and they came back normal. but with hypothyroidism running in our family the endo did prescribe me 25mcg of synthroid…with no success. i know it’s a low dosage, but with a normal thryoid gland and FT4 and antibodies numbers it’s not wise to start a higher dose. also, im not gonna ask for armour as it’s such a crap shoot.
if u don’t mind, pls continue with some of your thoughts…even if they may seem half arsed…as it’s something to start with and work off. btw, who are you? background?
If you can’t push yourself enough in order that I may help you then what is the point?
So I was right you didn’t provide me with all the bloods- drips and drabs like this as opposed to the clarity that I was asking for makes helping you truly impossible.
YOUR APPRAISAL OF THESE MATTERS IS SIMPLISTIC AND CATEGROICALLY WRONG!
You have presumed what I would say and have put words in my mouth, you have also been very defensive and have the mindset that because you have tried XY and Z over a period of time that no one else can have an answer.
If you think that no one can help you find an answer and therefore do not even give them half a chance then- yes you are right I could never have helped you. If someone is offering you help you need to afford them the time, information and benefit of the doubt and see if they can help. If you had given me that and I had failed to help you fair enough- but you never did that.
All you have done is give me drip and drab/incomplete information, presumed you know everything, presumed I cannot help etc and even told me what I would be thinking and saying to you.
Regarding the Hypo2 board. It isn’t so bad but in all honesty I know FAR more on these matters than every single person that frequents that site. As for HCG use, you have only just told me that is what you are looking to do- you never gave me any information along that line at all, in fact you told me you were not going ahead without prescription meds, but now you are saying you are?? again this is in keeping with not giving me anything like a proper picture.
Again you presume FAR too much- you have pegged down exactly what you think I would say on these matters without me saying a word. In fact I’m not required in order for you to have a conversation with me as far as I can see because you are doing such a job of covering what you think I would say anyway 
No- I’m leaving it there, I don’t do half arsed, plenty of people will be more than willing to do that and you can have conversations that will get you no where without me.
Someone who tried to help who wasn’t given half a chance to do so.
meant to say ‘HCG 3x a week is NOT the life I want to live’…sorry for the typo.
also sorry to come across as ungreatful. many of the ppl on this board really need your help so please continue to help them…i don’t think u’ll leave this forum cuz of me, but i just wanted to make sure that u don’t.
my only reason for posting to u was to share your opinions (or are they more than opinions) regarding guys’ situations on here rather than pm’ing them…this is supposed to be an open forum was all i was referring to. as for keeping things private…i don’t think anyone here is sensitive to talk about their diagnosis as once you report out u have bouts of ED and all the other issues that are on this board their’s nothing else that can be embarassing or private.
i’m out…
Ok.
You don’t have to apologise, you are short changing yourself not me and I was suggesting leaving trying to help here/you- not leaving the board. Darn it rockin813 I am being tough on you to try and fire you up and get you to help me- what does it take to get your back up and get you firing?
Why do you want people to chat aimlessly about your situation instead of actively having a bloody good go at helping you…come on! 
Why don’t you go back get the information I was asking for and give me half a darn chance at trying to help?
Your call.
I’ll give it one more go- but only if you give me what I need to try and help you and give me a proper chance to see if I can help- I wont do things half arsed.
If there is any annoyance from me, it is only the sense of;
If I am going to put in significant time and effort in doing my best, I need you to at least be acting as though you are bothered enough to be in it with me. If you can’t be arsed helping yourself who the hell should be bothered on your behalf…surely you see this?
That is a point from some way back, I understand what you are saying and what am I doing here if not trying to help you in an open way?
Hopefully not….come on pick your ass up and let’s try and see where we can get…get me that info I wanted so I can clearly see where things have gone awry and lets try and figure out what can be done together?
The language is tough because it has to be, it doesn’t pay to just be all wool and kittens and lip service- it won’t change your predicament.
hmm, maybe this proviron is the answer for me. There are a few guys on here that had a similar deficiency of Free T and Normal Total T, with High SHBG. Many of these guys had good results with Proviron.
I have the same horome profile. Funny, no one seems to talk about Proviron anymore. Anyone still taking this stuff?