Propecia Potential Epigenetic Effects/ Removal

Therapeutic Efforts
#1

Since many have varying long-term effects, it seems to me that there has to be an epigenetic component - i.e. change of gene expression. Or just that some of the drug is left bound to certain tissues/ cells in the body (e.g. hormonal, neurostransmitters).

This is happening on a general level with chemicals in the environment and there are plenty of studies showing these effects, and even demonstrating effects of these on hormones etc.

So perhaps for those that have long term effects, attempts to remove or reduce the burden of these chemicals will be helpful/ or an ultimate solution. Iā€™m putting this out there - in case others have thought through this/ seen any papers tackling it from this aspect.

Sauna protocols combined with detoxification supports, and perhaps caloric restriction (to encourage breakdown of existing cells) could be potential ways to accelerate ā€˜clear outā€™ of remnants of finasteride in the body. And ultimately return function to / or closer to its baseline.

#2

Hi qb1

Finasteride being trapped in the cells doesnā€™t explain the way things happen and stick around for months/years or undefinetlt :frowning:

Theres plenty indicators that shouldnā€™t be happening, appart from the fact that the body has efficienct detoxing mechanisms itself:

The studies say dht levels return to normal 30 days or less after stopping.

Finasteride itself has a reduced half life

Most people get sick after they stop the medication, not just while on it, this means it has little to do with itā€™s concentration.

Only a few of us get sick. Not everyone. Which means some people have a predisposition for pfs.

#3

Interesting - why do you say epigenetics or cellular inhibition (or acceleration) via binding canā€™t explain the fact that it lasts? (it does for other conditions)

Are there other mechanisms in the body that have been identified which would cause it to last?

Thanks

#4

Well, to put it simply, the idea is that epigenetic changes happened, beyond the binding of the finasteride molecule to the enzyme 5AR (and itā€™s other mechanisms of action). Meaning, these changes persist despite the molecule having left the body.

#5

It feels like itā€™s more of a communication or memory loss between cells, I donā€™t buy the residual stuff eitherā€¦ looking back I realize I was exibiting symptoms long before ā€œthe crashā€

It took 2 years after I stopped to fully crash btw, also based on brain scans there is a definitive loss of brain grey matterā€¦ this poison eats the brain, I still think healing is possible but you have to cure the underlining imbalances that have escalated as a result of this drug, and believe me there are plentyā€¦ hair test and mineral balancing is a start, along with gut protocols and keeping infections down, the brain will hopefully healā€¦

itā€™s a long, tough roadā€¦ I realize we are either healing or getting worse, there is no coasting or in between. at least for me

#6

Yes qb1, there very likely is epigenetic changes and this is the focus of the current research. Hopefully weā€™ll begin to see a bit more of the picture soon.

The problem we would be facing with methylation is that it isnā€™t an injury, although it can certainly cause a lot of dramatic problems. So, the body wonā€™t treat it as different from any other epigenetic mark. Methyl groups are also copied exactly during the cell renewal by the dnmt enzymes, which can explain why thereā€™s so many saying theyā€™re still the same a decade later. it isnā€™t going to try and shed it or ā€œhealā€. Gene expression is of course how cells in the body are differentiated so taking histone deacetylase inhibitors or other things that have demethylating effects is very imprecise.

Ocguy, could you tell us a bit more about the brain scan findings you mention? Did this show pituitary or brain stem changes?

1 Like
Methylation: What is it?
#7

Yes please tell us more about this.

#8

OK - so youā€™re dispelling the possibility of some of the chemical remaining in the body and disrupting cells.

Letā€™s explore that for a minute.

Are there specific studies assuring 100% of it was removed from body - and that takes place in all men (i.e. had an N high enough to demonstrate that it applies to whole population).

For years it was said that Gadolineum contrast dye (the one used with contrast MRIs) was completely removed from the body after the MRI and there was no cause for concern. More recent studies have shown the opposite, that residues remain in the body and remain in tissues such as the brain.

I think there are a couple of scenarios for this being applicable:

  1. Some men have weaker detoxification (phase 0 to 3) abilities for certain molecules involved with finasteride removal - thus they were unable to remove them and they remain in specific tissues/ or itā€™s very very slow (i.e. years - as some people see time related benefits post-finasteride)
  2. All men have this build up of finasteride remnants but due to other personal cellular functional attributes they dontā€™ have ā€˜noticeableā€™ symptoms - (importantly, they may have symptoms, they just donā€™t notice them as much - or the symptoms may arrise later in life, e.g. higher rate of alzheimers / cancers or any other condition)

I noticed thereā€™s a bit of talk of it ā€˜feelingā€™ like in this thread - itā€™s risky to make any decisions based on any feeling. There is a good/ useful MRI called NeuroQuant (that Craig Venterā€™s team uses) that I have run, that will give you precise quants on potential brain effects - I have atrophy in specific areas (or had - getting an update and believe it will be much better 3 years on) - Iā€™d recommend anyone concerned about the brain use NeuroQuant as it provides a well studied quantitative measure of any atrophy and which parts of the brain are affected. Thus you can track repair/ gains over time.

#9

Thanks for this, certainly seems interesting when quickly looking through the evidence. Is it a software you can input yourself the data, or do you need to go to a specific center to do the MRI?

Regarding the trapped finasteride idea proposed, it couldnā€™t explain the predisposition to developing PFS, why some people develop issues from one single small dose, or why many people quit, get better, and then a few weeks/months later everything falls appart. It also cant explain why PFS has different symptoms from finasterideā€™s side effects.

#10

Iā€™ve had a few different scans

Spect scan, at the time i couldnā€™t sleep a winkā€¦ the scan picked up on itā€¦ showed very FAST activity in the limbic area, basal gangliaā€¦ the swirls on the scan looked like a hurricaneā€¦ they were White which is the fastest it can measure, dr was amazed because he had never seen somebody my age with that kind of activity

Qeeg, when i was doing neurofeedback to help me sleep (highly recommended btw) My dr ordered a QEEG at my insistenceā€¦ The first thing she asked me when we went over the results was ā€œhave you ever been hit in the headā€ the damage fin does looks like a TBI.

BioKat scanner, this is a diagnostic and treatment machine from germanyā€¦ its a full body scan using bio resonance , it specifically stated issues with grey matter, and it eluded to shrinking tissue.

Evoked potentials brain scanā€¦ definitive areas in the brain showing Low power , all at the crown of the head

recently, I did the NES health scanā€¦ like a zyto but betterā€¦ anyway, again showed disruption in grey matterā€¦

Remember grey matter consists of roughly 80 percent of the brain, so it shouldnā€™t be a surprise these tests are showing some damageā€¦

Also, i definitely have methylation issues spotted from a 23andme dna test, among many mutations i have a double mutation with Mhthr C6671 Iā€™ve been on methylation protocols for yearsā€¦ UGH.

but maybe there is residueā€¦ even though it took a couple of years after stopping to really show itself

based on the symptoms we have, it does indicate that its still "working " in our bodiesā€¦ hell my receding hairline has completely stopped and actually been regrowing the last 7 years

#11

Indeed this is the area Iā€™ve looked most into, as well as the thalamus.

Have you read what I had written on this on solvepfs? You could find it interesting.

Also, could you tell us more about your onset of pfs? You seem to have found clear brain regional changes but most people donā€™t find it. TBI could be small enough that you canā€™t pick it up. I have often wondered about damage to interneurons - the ones which connect brain areas.

None of this was picked up in the current PFS studies though and they did brain scans AFAIR

#12

It doesnā€™t show up on a standard mri or imaging, maybe the damage is too finite even if the damage covers large areas

The tests where it will show up are in resonance scans, im not sure exactly how they work, but basically the device will send out a signal or ping to a specific area in the brain and wait for a response. Based on that response compared to a pool of healthy subjects it can make a determination of an imbalance or atypical change of whatā€™s expectedā€¦ thatā€™s just one way

I was a fin user from 98 to 2007, it was losing its effectiveness so I switched to avodart, avodart is more powerful because it blocks dht1 and dht2

This is when my problems beganā€¦ it started with the skin, lost fat and this rubbery texture to my face, at the time I thought it was from a laser treatment, I also experienced what I thought was varicole, because my orgasms were dryā€¦

I stopped using avodart in 2009 after I noticed libido changesā€¦ sex drive came roaring back for 2 years, made great gains at the gym and face started to look better, was totally healing, this went on for 2 yearsā€¦ then started a slow decline
. Libido wasnā€™t as robust and completely shut down in late 2011, couldnā€™t sleep at all as I mentionedā€¦ did extensive neurofeedback and acupuncture treatments, also immune function weakend, detox affected, gut was a messā€¦

I had minor mold exposure but because detox was compromised I ended up becoming deathly ill, spent hours upon hours researching mold exposure and began detoxing using shoemaker protocol, this was just the beginning, after mold I went after infections, I basically have Lyme disease now, although thatā€™s finally under controlā€¦to be honest the list of things it affects are endless, it seems once you lose something so integral to your health, hormone regulation, androgen sensitivity , anything can go, and it hasā€¦

Iā€™m currently mineral balancingā€¦ had some success with this in 2015 after one year, but didnā€™t stick with itā€¦

#13

Yes indeed. Really quite hard to comprehend the totality of the effects even when ā€œlivingā€ it.

this was from a 2014 study by Melcangi on 7 patients, before the one more commonly cited:

To perform a complete neurological assessment, before CSF drawing under sterile conditions after local anesthesia, the post-finasteride patients underwent brain magnetic resonance imaging, with normal results in all subjects.

I have considered another MRI as I have one before crashing into severe PFS. When I crashed for months I felt burning in my brain which still occurs to a lesser extent. However like most testing in PFS, whether it showed much or not, it wouldnā€™t be of practical use so I havenā€™t pursued it.

1 Like
#14

I realize this thread is pretty darn old, but in case of any value, also wanted to note a similar experience with QEEG - got a QEEQ to inform neurofeedback, and similarly, the doc remarked that my QEEG looked similar to someone who was post-concussive/TBI vs. typical depression or anxiety symptoms.