annon - it is hyper-methylation. not hyper-demethylation. demethylation would, theoretically, cause resolution of hypermethylation.
That’s strange because they said my thyroid levels were also in check, I didn’t believe them so I took synthroid anyways and thats when I really started to feel better.
I’ve only been on synthroid now 2 weeks and it seems to be solving most of the problems fin caused me.
The first thing I noticed when taking it was shedding of hairs on top of my head that hadn’t fallen out in months, and shedding all over my body. Stranger though I didn’t go bald there, my hair started to come back thicker and longer than before. I wonder if Syn causes hair growth.
Brain Cloud is all but gone and general sense of well being is much better since being on Syn. I haven’t had any adverse effects while being on it. It’s only a 1.5 mg pill.
Didn’t really want to talk about Syn until the last couple days since I’ve only been on it recently, but it seems to have really been the underlying solution to my problem, even my libido.
This is exactly how I felt. shaking, having extremely cold hands and feet. Sometimes it makes me think symptomes wise we are just like herion addicts so we might get the same treatement that durg users get.
same pain , I still sometimes feel the pain even after 16 months after SP use. I thinks it is b/c of low level of Testosterone.
are u taking any vit D?
sps
how long will u stay on synthroid?
Probably the rest of my life. It’s only a 1.5 mg pill, believe me I can handle that. I was genetically predisposed to it as well. My parents developed hypothyroidism around there 40’s but propecia triggered mine. Propecia seems to trigger latent genes in your body and turns other ones off.
And yes spstricken I am taking Vitamin D. Look up Centrum, it’s a multivitamin pill. It will support your immunity and colon health.
I actually don’t have ED problems, I can ejaculate in less than a minute if I wanted too, the orgasm is very pleasurable, much better than when I was on propecia and it seems to be getting better. Problem is I just don’t have the desire to do so, I only do it basically to test myself and see if it’s getting better or not.
My semen quality looks like it’s getting better as well, also quantity of it. It’s probably a normal amount, but not normal by my standards.
The only meds I’m currently on are Synthroid and Centrum. I believe Synthroid has caused me to start sweating a lot, I sweat a great deal, I’m actually almost sweating as much as I used too. My body odor is also starting to get bad which is great. I actually enjoy working up a sweat, it feels like such a release compared to what I was like when I was on fin and I couldn’t sweat to save my life.
Could we please not just blatantly speculate like this on this website? post a study or post a theory relating to such statements. we have a ton of theories floating around and do not need additional ones without correlating science or at least a few lines justifying why you think this is true.
I can’t prove what fin did to me, none of us can.
I only know what I felt, and I think fin caused my body to undergo premature menopause that usually happens in men when they become much older.
I experienced and am experiencing problems my father has, only mine only occured as soon as I started taking Fin. His didn’t didn’t start until his 50’s.
If Fin is lowing DHT and Testosterone levels, maybe your brain thinks you’re getting older and adjusts your entire body accordingly. What normally takes 10-30 years of natural gradual changes of losing T/DHT, you’re talking about a drug that does this in only about 5 days. Can a body really handle that? Not to mention all the other unknown effects this drug has on body that is currently unknown.
The experience I had was as if I had burned my brain out. I feel most of my problems are mental rather than hormonal. I don’t think TRT or hCG will help me, I believe it caused my thyroid disease in me that normal testing cannot detect.
I think our blood tests are as good as useless considering my T is barely over 400, yet I can get erections yet other guys with T twice as mine can’t.
I believe most of our libido problems caused by impairment of testicular testosterone synthesis due to hypothyroidism.
Hypothyroidism also has such side effects as memory loss, brain fog and muscle hypotonia(Poor Muscle Tone), which has gotten much better since taking synthroid. I don’t think it’s a coincidence just like it wasn’t a coincidence that propecia caused all these problems when I started taking that drug in the first place.
Agreed about the rapid aging, we who had libido problems on the drug and after were effectively having the sex lives of 60-somethings, and then it got even worse. Remember T levels are only meant to fall by 2% per year, if you crashed they probably dropped tenfold than that in the space of days.
Only women go through menopause.
I know what you mean but some people might call it “brainstorming”. There isn’t a scientific study to back up every possiblity so it’s fair enough, within reason, to think outside the box, even if it’s just a hunch with not much concrete science to back it up. In fairness, he does say “seem” and “believe”, making it quite clear he’s speculating.
His theory sounds quite plausible to me, albeit very difficult to substantiate (the part about genes that is).
This is exactly the kind of closed minded thinking that will stop this forum from moving forward.
How can you ask for science to back up a solution when science doesnt even know the problem?
Think outside the box for christs sake.
No, it’s exactly the type of thinking that will help us find the solution.
We need to start somewhere, and that somewhere is with the studies we know of regarding Finasteride and its various mechanisms of action: viewforum.php?f=8
For you to suggest otherwise opens the door to people proposing concepts and theories backed by nothing but THIN AIR, THOUGHTS AND BELIEF. This is dangerous and can lead to self-treatment and harm by some for conditions that do not even exist.
Do you not recall the user Majkellos, aka gottaproblem, aka derekjrt who shuffled from theory to theory (candida, leaky gut, parasites, chlamydia pneumonaie and others) based on absolutely nothing but delusional thoughts? Actually, you participated in those threads and displayed the same gullibility that you are now, with regards to “copper toxicity” and “zinc deficiency” as the cause of everyone’s problems: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3204
You seem to be the lone wolf here who is desperate to grasp at straws to explain your issues, ignoring all scientific publishings to the contrary about Fin, other doctors’ opinions (Crisler, Jacobs), and the fact that we underwent androgen deprivation therapy, and that the problems we are experiencing are a direct result of that.
I don’t know why you are so hellbent on this line of thought but the sooner you take a step back, and realize that vitamins and minerals have yet to cure anyone here, and do not cause peyronie’s disease, penile shrinkage/fibrosis, gynecomastia, loss of muscle, loss of libido, loss of morning/nocturnal/spontaneous erections, decreased ejaculate and prostatic atrophy/involution, and the many other effects from loss of Testosterone/DHT’s actions, then you will be better off.
I have personally tried taking extra Zinc – it did nothing but worsen my muscle stiffness. As for “copper toxicity”, it does not explain the above symptoms, or will it ever, especially considering some guys get side effects within DAYS of depriving their bodies of 5AR2 activity/DHT levels/neurosteroids. I can and will provide scientific resources to counter these “copper toxicity” claims if required, since that is the only way one can really argue online: backed by facts.
If you aren’t interested in scientific discussion, then you’re probably right – this isn’t the forum for you, and there are plenty of others out there where you can formulate theories and opinion based on nothing if you so choose. This constant disruption across multiple threads to promote, argue about and disagree about “copper toxicity” is getting tiresome, so hopefully we can contain it to one thread from this point forward.
I think we should agree to disagree Mew.
Also zinc is one of the first things Dr Crisler prescribes.
This forum is simply not fair. Its Mew’s way or the highway. If I cant post a single comment saying that a symptom is that of copper toxicity or some other thing (I post on a variety of topics and theories, not just copper toxicity as you would have everyone beleive), then that is a very sad thing.
What happens Mew, if it turns out I have a massive zinc deficiency, or dopamine deficiency (im also targeting that) and because i cant talk freely on theories a whole bunch of guys who are possibly in the same boat miss out. Dont you think ive been down the path of trying to replace my hormones? I still am! Does it hurt to try and also correct VITAL minerals and eliminate TOXINS. I will have you know that the best doctors I have seen also incorporate a dietician and use natural vitamins and minerals as standard practice. No offence Mew but you are behind the eight ball. Vitamins and minerals are playing a bigger part in medicine than ever before by CUTTING EDGE doctors as is toxicity and liver function which are all related. Where do you think all of these hormones are processed? In the liver! If your liver is full of toxins, you simply wont metabolise hormones properly.
I bring a lot to this forum Mew so make sure you speak on behalf of everyone when you say I should go elsewhere.
Are you saying we should dismiss all other ideas until we have all discovered that this is the solution or not? I will be in a wooden box before I get better if that is the case.
Can we not all be trying different things and taking different angles to speed up the process? I thought this was the strength we had in numbers - to get things done?
And just because you tried zinc and you got muscle cramps, doesnt mean zinc is off the list for everyone else. That is insane.
I dont think im going to get anywhere with this. So I will try to just try and PM people if I see somthing suss thats to do with vitamins, minerals or toxicity so as to try and keep the forum free of “nature”…and Mew happy.
The downside of course is that guys who read from the sidelines will miss out and the whole forum will suffer if it turns out some of these deficiencies are part of the problem.
Look, you are clearly reacting from an EMOTIONAL point of view, rather than a logical one.
You glossed over the facts I stated regarding effects of androgen deprivation, as if they are some trivial thing, when in fact they are a direct result of inhibiting 5AR and DHT. T
Actually, this forum is quite fair. People are free to propose ideas, but when they do so backed by NOTHING scientific, and make claims that such ideas are the cause and solutions to everyone’s problems… then it becomes an issue.
No, it’s not. But if you are going to propose a theory as the solution to everyone’s problems, you need more than just emotion and blind faith to convince people. If someone says “hey, I was cured by taking cyanide and lived to tell about it”, would you take that person’s word and just blindly do what they suggest, just because you are desperate to try and change your situation? I would seriously hope not.
Fantastic, keep at it. You are targetting an area known to be impacted by the drug!
No, of course not. Anyone can pop vitamins, and for 99% in teh Westernized world, they are not vitamin/mineral deficient. We have noticed a trend with many ex-Fin users however, who have abnormally low Vitamin D levels. Since Vitamin D is a member of the nuclear receceptor superfamily (same as Thyroid and Androgen Receptors), perhaps there is a connection there. Considering docs like Jacobs believe the problem is likely mediated via the AR should tell you something, which you are choosing to ignore for who knows what reason.
This is where you start going off the deep end. Please check the quackwatch.com/ for more info about these dubious diagnoses. I already posted links about this in the letsconvenience recovery thread.
Again, you are completely dismissing what we know about how Finasteride operates and concentrating on this idea that naturopathy is the cureall for everyone’s issues. So, how does copper toxicity explain penile fibrosis and penile atrophy? Gynecomastia? Prostate atrophy/involution? Decreased semen volume and force? Decreased seminal vesicle weights? Loss of morning erections?
I could go on and on… the point is you’d need to find SUBSTANTIAL scientific sources to back your claims that copper toxicity is the cause of each of those points… which of course is a futile waste of time and energy, since they are all correlated with Finasteride use and androgen deprivation – the same drug we took which has been proven to cause these issues across numerous studies. For some reason you have an issue accepting this fact and are choosing to look for other scapegoats, and I don’t know why.
No, not at all. But if you are proposing an “idea”, it needs to be backed by scientific materials to prove your point, or at least propose that it is plausible from Finasteride use if you are trying to convince people to invest time and energy, and potentially money and putting their health at risk to treat what is likely a non-existant condition in the first place.
Well we’re all in the same boat, so what’s your point?
Yes, there is strength in numbers – so go ahead and try whatever you want. The problem with online discussion forums is there is no way to prove people’s claims. So when people come with things out of left field and claim they cured themselves with some random theory or substance, you are relying on people’s blind faith and gullibility to trust such claims – which can be extremely dangerous.
The point is, you are sitting here arguing about an idea which has yet to be proven or connected to Finasteride use in any way, shape or form by the scientific community, nor is there any scientific material to my knowledge which discusses how 5AR inhibition could even cause such a problem to occur, nor does the symptom profile from legit medical sources connect such “toxicity” to the many symptoms which have been documented to occur from Finasteride/DHT deprivation. Again, you are looking for other scapegoats to explain what Finasteride did to us, when it has already been published by real scientists: 5AR inhibition and androgen deprivation.
No of course it doesn’t mean “zinc is off the list”. Others have tried Zinc too and reported either worsening of symptoms (which makes sense, since its a documented 5AR inhibitor) or slight temporary improvements which do not last beyond days or weeks. Again, self-diagnosing (ie, "I think I’m Zinc deficient, even though I take a multivitamin etc) without bloodtests is a dangerous excercise.
The keyword there is “IF” – IF it’s part of the problem and it is found to be a common pattern amongst many individuals, then it would be worth giving further consideration.
Now, I think we’ve derailed the original posters’ thread enough at this stage. If you want to disagree on this, keep it to letsconvenience’s recovery thread.
Cheers.
Dury heres a link regarding high billirubin and copper toxicity as it pertaines to you:
“Jaundice and high bilirubin levels are signs of copper toxicity, as is earaches and ear infections.”
J899, thank you for this information.
I have been taking this issue quite seriously, it does explain the slight ringing sensation I have in my right ear. I always thought that was just in my head.
Funny it seemed to get worse after I quit Fin, well then again everything did.
I’m still completely convinced Fin also caused thyroid problems in me. It’s not a coincidence that my hair starting thinning, especially the corners of my eyebrows after I started taking that drug.
What crock of shit that this drug is supposed to make your hair thicker. The only thing it did to me was cause my hairline to recede two inches and the rest of my hair all over my body to become thin or fall out.
I think it will take fully a year to recover from this since I’ve been on the drug relatively almost a year. The odd thing is that my physical appearance has changed quite drastically since I’ve quit Fin. I look a lot healthier and younger. My hair has gotten thicker and my hairline has actually started to restore itself somehow. My skin has gotten darker, I had olive skin before Fin turned me into a ghost.
The whole thing just pisses me off. Most times I don’t even think about it. Which is why I never crawled in here asking for help, I hate begging and said to myself I’ll only post when I know I’m recovering and I’m glad I am. The only thing that worries me right now is that I’ll stop recovering.
Not to ruin your hopes, but i was on this drug for 8-9 weeks and havent recovered. It’s been 8 years. There are others who have been on it a short time and haven’t recovered…
I think this goes beyond what is presently known. I’m in agreement with Awor’s “Gene expression theory or DNA Hypermethlyation”.
I think that is the final piece to the puzzle…Atleast I’m hoping…
Don’t get me wrong, some individuals do recover. My only explationation would be that their DNA gene expression wasn’t downregulated or “silenced” and their hormones normalized after stopping the drug like it should.