I’ve been off the drug since Nov of 2005. I’ve had all the typical symptoms that people here have experienced after stopping use of the drug. Now, as of a couple days ago, my head will jerk to one side or another at the neck - like a person with Tourette’s. I’ve also noticed that my cognitive difficulties and short term memory problems have become gradually worse. Has anyone experienced any involuntary jerky movements? Have we gotten anywhere with cures, or at least a diagnosis, since the creation of this website?
UGA the tics or muscle twitches along with the memory problems are due to GABA being depleted in the brain. As time goes on more and more GABA gets used up and these things become more common. I get the most random muscle twitches all the time during the day it’s ridiculous.
.
So what should I do? Should I go see a neurologist? Is this something that can be treated, or are there any specific tests that can be performed to properly diagnose this?
What does CRH-ACTH-ADr stand for?
EMG, NCV tests to check muscle activity
Comprehensive bloodwork to rule out hormonal imbalances, and vitamin imbalances such as potassium, magnesium, calcium etc… ask about GABA as well.
Ive had lipid and metabolic profiles run, testosterone, FSH, LH, and prolactin and TSH, and everything has come back within reference, although T was in the high 300s. My doctor is skeptical as to a hormonal problem, but I’ve always asked him that I should check DHT. He replied that a DHT test is possible but he’s not sure if insurance will cover it because it’s an extremely expensive blood test.
how do I intelligently ask about testing for GABA? What is an EMG and NCV, and what doctor do I need to see for these tests? A neurologist?
You’d probably need to do some research on the role of GABA-A, and formulate your argument to prove your case by presenting scientific materials linking Finasteride’s inhibition of Progesterone --> Allopregnanolone conversion, leading to depletion of Allopregnanolone which exacerbates seizure-like activity, thanks to the effects of losing Allopregnanolone (an anticonvulsant neurosteroid) which is supposed to normally act on GABA-A.
To put this in context for you:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668
pahealthsystems.com/message35630.html
You can start with the studies listed on this Forum, the materials are there for you to work from. You can also do a search on Google for “Gaba” “seizure” “finasteride” “allopregnanolone” or any combination therof.
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … ht=seizure
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … light=gaba
content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/pr … tNr=223855
Other tests:
EMG:
stjohnsmercy.org/healthinfo/ … /TP012.asp
NCV
nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency … 003927.htm
Yes you’d need to make an appointment with a Neurologist for the above.
Okay, so we know that DHT is needed to produce DHDOC and THDOC as well as allepregnenolone (sp?). In addition, DHT is needed for proper sexual function of the prostate, correct? If this is all true (and please correct me if I’m wrong), the problem seems to be NO DHT! Last year, I wrote a post about the possibility of fin to change the gene expression such that DHT is no longer produced. Now, my question is, what makes DHT? I know it comes from Testosterone, but what takes T and turns it into DHT? Is it 5AR? Mew, you’re the most informed on this board - do you know of anyone who has had their DHT levels checked? What was the result?
I have been going back and forth with my physician, who is very open minded about all this, and he is skeptical about the concept of “adrenal fatigue.” He says that there’s no way to test for it and that there’s no treatment for it. However, he said that there is such a thing as “adrenal insufficiency, which can happen when there is an underlying disease (such as Addison’s disease, or hemochromatosis, or sarcoidosis) affecting the gland. If you had actual adrenal insufficiency, the most sensitive indicators would be your blood pressure (which would be low) and your serum potassium (which would be high).” As it turned out, my blood pressure and serum potassium were normal. Consequently, it seems my adrenals are fine.
I still think that our problems are rooted in DHT - it’s the one thing that fin has affected, and the one thing that blocks the conversion of a lot of important compounds. Now, my Doctor has been very patient and very open minded about this, and he too hates finasteride. But, he must work within the confines of the insurance policy, otherwise he’s going to run a bunch of tests for which my insurance will not pay. He currently wants me to see a urologist, but I’m skeptical as to whether or not this problem is rooted in urology. I truly believe, as far as my case goes, that it’s a DHT issue, primarily because I’m experiencing both sexual and cognitive side effects, as well as muscle spasms. Now, what we need to do is to formulate a theory as to what is going on with us. We need to draft an article, with support citations to scientific studies, explaining all the things that DHT does to regulate our body. That way, we can talk about this issue intelligently with our doctors and build credibility. Does anyone want to take on this task? I feel I don’t have enough vocabulary and understanding about the interplay between 5AR, DHT, GABA, THDOC, and DHDOC.
so we know that DHT is needed to produce DHDOC and THDOC as well as allepregnenolone (sp?).
Correction – 5AR is required tp produce the other neurosteroids, not DHT. DHT is simply a result of 5AR’s conversion of T --> DHT.
In addition, DHT is needed for proper sexual function of the prostate, correct?
Yes, hence why Finasteride shrinks/involutes the prostate due to lack of intraprostatic DHT.
what makes DHT? I know it comes from Testosterone, but what takes T and turns it into DHT? Is it 5AR?
Correct, it is 5AR – both Type I (responsible for ~ 30%) and Type II (responsible for ~ 70%, which Fin blocked).
do you know of anyone who has had their DHT levels checked? What was the result?
I have had SERUM (blood) DHT checked and it was high. However from my understanding this is not the most accurate method to assess true 5AR activity… see this post for better ways:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=761
Other guys that have had DHT tested, some are high others are normal, others are low, so it seems people are all over the place:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … hlight=dht
I still think that our problems are rooted in DHT - it’s the one thing that fin has affected, and the one thing that blocks the conversion of a lot of important compounds.
Correction, Fin affected 5AR-II by blocking it’s activity, thus leading to a decrease in DHT. 5AR is responsible for converting the other “important compounds”, not DHT.
Now, what we need to do is to formulate a theory as to what is going on with us. We need to draft an article, with support citations to scientific studies, explaining all the things that DHT does to regulate our body. That way, we can talk about this issue intelligently with our doctors and build credibility. Does anyone want to take on this task?
Many theories have been floated about on this site but I am working on synthesizing them into various “scenarios” which I will make a post about once I am done supported by research… it will likely be a few weeks/months yet. There will be a new website dedicated to this cause, which when it’s ready I will announce. It should make it easier for people to see “the big picture” of what the drug affected and hopefully, offer some clues/insight to docs to help investigate further.
Mew, you wrote "Correction – 5AR is required tp produce the other neurosteroids, not DHT. DHT is simply a result of 5AR’s conversion of T --> DHT. "
So, it seems that 5AR II, which finasteride blocks, is the mechanism by which many “compounds”, for lack of a better word, are converted for regulation of our bodies. Now, is there any way to test whehter or not 5AR II is functioning properly such that DHDOC and THDOC are sufficiently present to regualte our CNS? If it’s not possible to test for 5AR II, is there some other proxy that can be tested that would indiciate whether or not 5AR II is functioning properly? In other words, if THDOC and DHDOC both come from 5AR’s conversion of DOC, can we test for THDOC or DHDOC? It appears to me that Merck had to be able to test for 5AR II when it created finasteride, otherwise they would not be able to explain how finasteride works. Therefore, there must be a way to test whether or not 5AR is properly functioning.
Read the following, it’s an Announcement at top of Hormones section.
Read the following, it’s an Announcement at top of Hormones section.
Now, the hard part will be to actually find an doctor that is willing to conduct such expensive tests…If the HMO doesn’approve, the dr doesn’t get paid. Of course, if this is the mother of all tests, then maybe it’s worth the expense to pay for it ourselves. Any idea how much something like that costs and any doctors competent enough to order or conduct such a test? If we can somehow get a doctor or two to conduct these tests, maybe we can get a discount, and it would also help in the compilation of data.
I’ve been getting small convulsions or ‘seizures’ lying in bed sometimes, usually when I have slightly stressful thoughts, my body jerks.
There is a study about social isolation in rats reducing allepregnanolone or whatever, fin made me depressed the last few weeks and not socialise much I hope this didn’t make it worse.
Double posts are another side.
I’ve been getting small convulsions or ‘seizures’ lying in bed sometimes, usually when I have slightly stressful thoughts.
have you done any research on magnesium deficiency
Taking Mg doesn’t help me . I hate this side effect the most. What could it refer to? Neurological damage?