NATURAL ANTI-ANDROGEN BRAINSTORM

General Discussion
#1

I am opening this thread to try to collectively find out what our body could have or be producing that are working like anti-androgens. Considering JNs thread where he got better then fell back off, my experience, and basically everyone else who gets everything working then falls back off… I think that the idea of AR mutation has been explored but is much less likely than something either:

  • deactivating testosterone (keep in mind that if it is deactivated, it is still able to aromatase) or
  • deactivating the 5AR or
  • deactivating DHT or
  • deactivating Androgen Receptor

Let’s take JN’s recent T3 treatment as example. T3 can increase AR concentration. So the T3 increases the number of AR and then whatever is in our body catches up with the extra receptors and disables/deactivates them also - hence a reoccuring shutdown.

Of note, this is what I found out about a prescription anti-androgen which basically latches on to the AR and disables it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicalutamide

Bicalutamide blocks androgen receptors. This prevents testosterone and other androgens from binding to the receptors. Bicalutamide may cause sexual difficulties and a decline in sperm count. Nevertheless bicalutamide monotherapy appears to have minimal effect on sexual activity.[16]
Blockade of androgens receptors by bicalutamide in the brain will eliminate the negative feedback loop of testosterone on the release of luteinizing hormone (LH). This in turn will lead to a dramatic increase in testosterone and estrogen levels.[17] [Size=4]Bicalutamide treatment will block the effects of rising testosterone levels but the effect of rising estrogen levels will remain unopposed and lead to feminizing effects most notably gynecomastia[/size] which is often painful.[18]

Sound familiar? Well we need to cut off whatever is shutting down our __________… (I am leaning toward AR)

So far I have found:

LXR (Liver X Receptor)
endo.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/149/8/3778.pdf
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17416342

and
Genistein
clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/46/6/887

other ideas - candida, bacteria, heavy metals, etc.

#2

Incorporated into enzymes. Toxic metals are not just sitting in the body or floating free in the tissues, although this is true of some of them. These are the easiest to remove. Unfortunately, millions of metal atoms are replacing essential minerals in enzymes throughout the body. They cannot simply be pulled out with a chelator or anything else. The body must very carefully and slowly replace them in the enzyme binding sites. This is a much slower process, but a vital one that slowly increases a person’s energy level and restores the functioning of all the body organs as well.

drlwilson.com/articles/LOW%20NAK%2011-06.htm

My na/k ratio is 1.3:1

#3

Boom. Found it.

andrologyjournal.org/cgi/rap … 0.010041v1

J Androl. 2010 Jun 10. [Epub ahead of print]
The Neurobiology of Psychogenic Erectile Dysfunction in the Spinal Cord.

Sakamoto H.
Abstract

We recently reported a previously unknown peptidergic system within the lumbosacral spinal cord that uses gastrin-releasing peptide (GRP) to trigger erection and ejaculation in male rats. Many men suffering from stress, including post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and major depressive disorder, report sexual dysfunction. Sexual dysfunction in men suffering from stress and major depressive disorder is traditionally treated via psychological counseling. To determine whether acute severe stress could alter the male-specific GRP system, we used single-prolonged stress (SPS) exposure in a putative rat model for PTSD. Exposure of male rats to SPS decreases the local content and the axonal distribution of GRP in the lower lumbar spinal cord and results in an attenuation of penile reflexes in vivo. Pharmacological stimulation of GRP receptors remarkably restores penile reflexes in SPS-exposed male rats and in castrated male rats. The administration of a GRP agonist to these animal models interestingly induces spontaneous ejaculation in a dose-dependent manner. [Size=4]Furthermore, although the circulating level of androgens is normal one week after SPS exposure, there is a significant decrease in the expression of androgen receptor protein in lumbar segments 3 and 4 of the spinal cord. This may make the spinal center less responsive to androgens.[/size] In this report, I review recent findings on a recently identified spinal GRP system, which may be vulnerable to stress, that controls male reproductive function. This system provides new insights into the clinical treatment of psychogenic erectile dysfunction triggered by stress and psychiatric disorders

Annnnnnnd …the cure… <>

[Size=4]Pharmacological stimulation of GRP receptors remarkably restores penile reflexes in SPS-exposed male rats and in castrated male rats.[/size]

“Thank you thank you thank you. You’re far too kind” - Jay Z

#4

More Fun Facts

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrin-releasing_peptide

GRP regulates numerous functions of the gastrointestinal and central nervous systems, including release of gastrointestinal hormones, smooth muscle cell contraction, and epithelial cell proliferation. These peptides are also likely to play a role in human cancers of the lung, colon, stomach, pancreas, breast, and prostate.

#5

from the first link I posted:

The Effect of Androgens and Stress on Sexual Functions and on the Spinal Cord

  1. The correlation between psychogenic ED 5 and circulating androgens
    It is widely accepted that PTSD is a psychiatric disorder involving long-lasting symptoms
    that may occur after exposure to a life-threatening traumatic event. It is characterized by
    intrusive memories (i.e., flashbacks), a hyperarousal state, and avoidance of stimuli
    associated with the trauma (Pitman, 1997; Yehuda, 2002). Clinical data have indicated
    10 increased rates of sexual dysfunction, including erection and ejaculation difficulties, in men
    with PTSD (Cosgrove et al, 2002; Kaplan, 1988; Kaplan, 1989). Most combat veterans
    with PTSD experience clinically relevant sexual difficulties and 69% of veterans have ED
    (Letourneau et al, 1997). Erections are clearly androgen-dependent, as evidenced by a
    marked reduction in the frequency, amplitude, and rigidity of erections in men with
    15 hypogonadism (Rajfer, 2000). However, little is known about the role that
    11
    androgen-dependent neuropathy within the central nervous system plays in the
    development of psychogenic ED. Previous studies on the interaction between stress and the
    hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis indicate that the circulating total T level fluctuates in
    response to physical and psychological stress (Kreuz et al, 1972; Mason et al, 1988;
    Retana-Marquez et al, 2003). Since the comorbidity between 5 ED and major depressive
    disorder (MDD) is high, it is possible that a reduced circulating total T level in patients
    with MDD contributes to the development of ED (Seidman and Roose, 2001). In contrast to
    patients with MDD, there is evidence that plasma or serum total T levels do not change in
    patients with combat-related PTSD (Mulchahey et al, 2001) or in refugees suffering from
    10 PTSD (Bauer et al, 1994). Therefore, any sexual difficulties accompanying PTSD appear to
    be unrelated to the circulating levels of androgens.
#6

nice studies… so what a medication that is a grp receptor stimulation on the market which your going to try

#7

help me find one!

#8

Ill look if i can, but i have a new job and will be spending a lot less time on the site. Also, we know that the circulating level of androgens and hormones are infact effected by fin - which contracdicts this statement in the last study posted

Finally, we don’t really have post traumatic stress disorder, though some could argue our situation alone may be looked at as a highly stressful period on the male body - but people who have PTSD didn’t take a pill…

Just pointing some things out.

#9

You are right golf, no one crashed because of pstd or what ever it is, something essiential to male health stopped working or ran out.

#10

Yeah your dick stopped working

#11

Not before people crash

So in your logic we looked into the future and freaked out so we crashed

#12

Good luck with the job g man. Hope your not getting paid by the spontaneous erection :slight_smile:

#13

i dont think you silly gooses actually read the study

#14

To facilitate your discussion, I am offering an excerpt from a paper which I have co-authored (currently unpublished). You will find a bit on AR signaling pathways and more importantly, gene regulation. Perhaps this will help appreciate the fact that the body actually has its own mechanisms to deactivate the AR (or rather, its signaling).
AR_Signaling_Overview.pdf (605 KB)

#15

Awor this is extremly interesting. You are a very smart man, keep up the good work

#16

http://www.endotext.org/male/male2/maleframe2.htm

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(77)91825-6/abstract

#17

Thanks for the back up bro :laughing:

youtube.com/watch?v=N1t2QYdx … re=related

Awor, the way the body deactivates/down regulates AR is by dumping zinc?

#18

The body can downregulate or even deactivate the AR signal by a number of means. To illustrate this, one first has to understand what happens when androgen hormones (called ligands) “mate” with the androgen receptor:

  1. Ligand binds to AR
  2. AR travels to cell nucleus and triggers transcription (copying) of AR target genes to a copy of those genes called “RNA”
  3. RNA then travels to a structure within the cell called a ribosome. The ribosome reads the “message” (RNA) and produces a correponding protein. This is called translation.
  4. This protein often must undergo a finishing step called “posttranslational modification” before it reaches its final, active form. The fully functional protein is what is called a “signal”, because it signals other mechanisms/cells to do something.
  5. The finished protein (=signal) is what makes androgenic things happen such as keeping the penile structure intact and muscle cells growing, helps give us an erection, helps in producing sperm, keeps our prostate healthy, gives us libido, etc.

So to answer your question, the body “silences” the AR signal mainly by either downregulating step 2 (making less copies of RNA) or step 4 (by modifying the protein in such a way that it’s basically useless = posttranslational modification). Posttranslational modification is actually the most prominent mechanism the AR has at its disposal to completely silence the AR signal if required.

A number of substances can either inhibit or promote transcriptional activity (step 2). Zinc seems to have an effect on transcriptional activity by potentiating AR binding to nuclei [1], which basically means that it increases transcription. This effect could be due to the upregulation of one of the many modulators of transcriptional activity. But the body doesn’t directly influence zinc levels to regulate the AR to my knowledge. That would be an odd way to go about things.

[1] ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6466648

#19

Awor, any insight into why only the select few get screwed.
-Because i lied when i was 17?
-Purposely stepped on bugs?
Seriously do you have any theory on this?

#20

There undoubtedly is something at the genetic level which makes us different from the “rest”. See my thoughts on this in following thread: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4296&p=28089#p28089

I am also pretty sure that our group on this forum is just the tip of the iceberg. If you observe the reports from sufferers around here, you will notice that even amongst us, there is a huge disparity of how severely everyone is affected. If you extrapolate this observation, it is plausible that there may be many guys out there that have side effects, but to a even lesser degree than “we” (perhaps mild forms of ED, a little less libido, small concentration problems, etc.). If the incurred changes are subtle enough, it is easy to imagine that the affected men will not put them in relation with the drug. It is also very possible that not everyone has found us yet, perhaps because they are older and not Internet savvy. We all know that they won’t get our address from any doctors…