My protocol - a test case for all of us

Actually, they DO care and as Boston332 pointed out, we cannot afford to not be taken seriously by various groups at this stage of the game.

Posting about random theories, quackery and fraudulent/alternative/scam medical procedures does NOTHING to help our cause. Such behaviour is actually far more harmful at this stage than helpful, considering the various legal/research activities in play and mentions of this site across the media.

You clearly have a divergent train of thought towards a “natural” cause of PFS, and have always had such ever since I’ve known you, so if you prefer to discuss things like “biofilm busters” and other such nonsense, perhaps you’d be better off elsewhere.

Yes, there indeed does need to be some editorial control of this forum otherwise it would be infested with people claiming all types of things, trying to connect everything under the sun to Finasteride, which again is not credible. So if you prefer un-moderated discussion, sorry but that’s not going to change. There are plenty of other health related forums where un-moderated discussion is possible, if that is what you’re looking for.

We are being looked at publicly by the scientific, medical, legal and media communities on an ongoing basis. By posting about pseudo-scientific nonsense such as pathogens, parasites, toxins, biofilm busters etc, you are impacting the credibility of this site. There is a bigger picture and mission here beyond appeasing pet theories; that is, having victims and PFS be taken seriously by these communities, so that research can occur into the root cause of the syndrome so we can hopefully develop effective treatments.

Please keep this in mind and consider how what you post impacts these goals. Sorry to come off as harsh, but that is the reality.

Here’s the difference between you and I. You’re absolutely certain of your knowledge. I am not.

When I speak to doctors / media / researchers, I tell them the basics of finasteride and 5AR inhibition and PFS, including summarizing what different people speculate is at work, namely:

-the main symptoms are erectile dysfunction, loss of libido, brain-penis disconnect, brain fog and lethargy, although everyone is hit differently
-some people are looking at epigenetics, androgen receptor mutations
-others believe it’s a delicate HPTA imbalance
-yet others believe there is a neurosteroid issue
-there is overlap between Accutane and SSRI patient communities
-some believe it its inflammatory and have measured neuropathy
-PFS patients present with both normal and skewed hormonal results, adrenal and thyroid issues, and often report skin and bowel issues, sleep disturbances, anxiety, as well as infectious or allergic proclivities including prostate/testicle pain
-some have had success treating the immune system, some have achieved some success with hormones, anti-inflammatories, cortisone
-improvements are often temporary and recoveries are rare and broad in nature

I represent the broad spectrum of possibilities fairly. It would be irresponsible to insert my bias and disregard all the possibilities. But you act as if God himself told you the answer and only present the reality your narrowly-focused eyes see.

If I had a billion dollar budget to investigate PFS, I would not invest solely in my pet theory. I’d hire a team of clinicians and researchers consisting of genetic experts, infectious disease specialists, immunologists, endocrinologists, urologists, neurologists, etc. and leave no stone unturned.

So the reason I pipe up here is that there is a vocal minority that insists on controlling the narrative and scope of inquiry, not because I’m under any illusion that I’ve got it all figured out. And this is dangerous. This is not a forum if we only repeat the party line.

When you dismiss “biofilm” by putting it in quotations when I’ve linked to a doctor who’s saving diabetics’ limbs from amputations by treating this very real thing, you display an offensive intellectual arrogance. It’s frightening, the air of superiority that you flex. It’s frightening that you are the gatekeeper to research when you so loosely decide what is acceptable scientific fact and what is not. It’s reminiscent of book burning, what you often do.

What you label moderation I view as censorship. I understand that your legal case rests on your narrow definition of the mechanism of the problem, but if you were not to chime into every discussion that you disagree with, it would not imply an endorsement on your part, and it wouldn’t instigate such ire from people who are sick of the marginalizing of their observations and ideas. You often state that only what is published on finasteride is permissible, yet the phenomenon existed before anyone reported on PFS. It was legitimate before it was officially “legitimized” by Irwig’s survey of PFSers.

You can’t prove the mechanism of PFSs persistence, so you needn’t bet everything on your belief of the mechanism. There was enough data indicating that men were suffering from side effects even after discontinuation of finasteride, that the label should have been properly modified and consumers like me would have had informed consent, and there’s no way in hell I would’ve continued taking the damn drug with the full disclosure of what was going on. My life could have been spared.

So beyond that, my interest is in promoting as wide a scope of investigation as possible. You frequently allow ad hominem attacks and condescension and that is why the forum has devolved into a whiny, unsupportive community. If personal attacks were not tolerated, people could diplomatically discuss ideas and everyone would be better off.

I appreciate your posts very much Xhorndog!

The feeling is mutual.

Thank you, likewise. There we go, that’s much more in the spirit of brotherhood and healing.

Part of that imaginary billion dollars towards PFS research would go towards creating PFS Recovery Camp:

a nationwide/worldwide network of getaway dormitories where PFSers could live together and follow their strict diets and protocols-of-the-month without judgement from others. The “dorms” would feature ample cabinet space for every stupid supplement iHerb stocks, along with ping pong tables, pool tables, entertainment centers, a backyard with hammocks, a basketball hoop, a sauna, a gym for those able to workout, and other diversions from the daily doom of living with PFS. Anything to get us away from the computers and bickering at each other. A live-in masseuse wouldn’t hurt either.

Anybody have some spare cash to finance this? :wink:

Lol, I like it. Let’s make it happen.

This is serious dont change the subject with rubbish. Please read Mew’s post and think carefully before promoting this quack alternative-medical-psuedo-science nonsense. (Including “biofilm busters” viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5185&p=54302&hilit=+biofilm#p54302)

Yes, it does have an impact on the credibility of this website, so its effecting the lives of everyone with this condition. (- I dont find it surprising scientists conducting research into this problem are non-English speakers and cant read these posts.)

Did somebody say rubbish? muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Oscar_the_Grouch

Agreed. People are behaving far too glib considering what’s at stake right now. The consequences of filling this forum with pseudo-science and quackery while others are simultaneously trying to recruit researchers, raise funds and litigate cases against a multi-billion dollar company of Merck’s ilk should seriously concern everyone here.

To all the American scientists who closely follow every post on this thread, especially those tuning in this Friday night…check out this licensed medical doctor colleague of yours who’s saving diabetics from amputation by treating the very bacterial biofilm that a certain grouchy armchair scientist deems to be quackery: bacteriality.com/2008/04/13/wolcott/

[Size=4]diabetic foot ulcers kill tens of thousands of people. Over 100,000 limb amputations happen every year because of infected wounds. The suffering is tremendous and, if the infection from a wound spreads or if the limb is amputated, the patient has a high risk of death. So finding a way to quell the bacterial infections and to heal diabetic wounds is a matter of life or death. So when we realized that we had discovered a previously unrecognized bacterial cause that explains the chronicity of diabetic wounds – wounds that cause patients to lose their limbs – we went after the whole hog."

Dan and I have been reading several review articles that link autoimmune disease to chronic inflammation, and the more we’ve read, the clearer it’s become that chronic inflammation is a result of bacterial infection. So we think there is a clear link between chronic inflammatory diseases and bacteria, and when we think, “chronic inflammation” we believe we are typically dealing with biofilm infections.

most of our patients’ wounds heal by using various treatments to wear away at the biofilms that cover them. These treatments include putting lactoferrin and xylitol on the wound. Lactoferrin occurs naturally in tears, mucus and breast milk and appears to attack the bacteria from multiple angles. It is used commercially in meat packing plants to prevent biofilms from growing on carcasses. Xylitol occurs in fruits, vegetables and other plants. It is also produced as part of normal human metabolism. It is used in toothpaste and chewing gum because of its anti-biofilm properties.[/size]

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You think this is a joke??? Its not one post, its THOUSANDS of posts.

I am aware of at least one leading academic who aborted an attempt to conduct research on Post-Finasteride side effects [Size=4]USING THIS WEBSITE[/size]. I think that occured due to the credibility of this problem being damaged by the quackery (candida and adrenal fatigue) promoted on this forum.

By the way,

“biofilm” = real thing
“biofilm buster” (a ‘nutraceutical product’ purchased by Xhorndog to treat his ‘leaky gut’ because it includes the word ‘biofilm’) = quackery

People like Dr. Usman are using proteolytic enzymes in treating biofilm in Autism and Lyme disease, two very serious illnesses. Nobody uses systemic enzymes for intestinal permeability, ya silly goose. autismpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=Protocols/Usman

Are you sure your “researcher” wasn’t turned off by “phantom” theories? :wink:

Well, what matters at the end of the day is that FranzFan reports back with what he did and how/how long he improved or got worse on protocol. Please do report FranzFan that what happens!

How about we don’t derail this topic (or every other topic!!) with that kind of discussion AGAIN and do like any other proper forum with etiquette and make a seperate topic about it? It would honestly clear up lot of unnecessary call-outs, derails, trolls, repeatings like broken record etc. Just an idea.

I find it upsetting that yet again a PH thread is taken up by infighting. To the outside world we must appear really rather immature at times, however desperate our situation may be. This thread is for proactive mindsets only. Granted, my approach is not wholly scientific, but it is informed and it is proactive. I’m taking a functional medicine approach to my problem as it’s the only way in which I can remain positive. Others may choose to do the same, and that way, we may at least find what helps us, even if we do not find the cause of our problems.

My progress to date… well, after a lot of struggle, I have finally succeeded in getting myself into a sugar-free diet. It’s taken a lot of effort because I previously relied heavily on sugar as a coping mechanism, but mentally I am now far stronger and can resist all foods that I used not to. At least I am saving pounds each week on chocolate and useless snacks.

May daily eating is now fully paleo, with the exception of heavily fermented natural yoghurt, kefir, and a very small amount of buckwheat bread each week. It is essentially a strict paleo diet and I must say I haven never felt more energetic nor has my head felt clearer in my life.

I am now certain that I do have a fungal infection. This is because when I eat sugar I get smelly feet; when I don’t, I do not. Plus after eating sugar/wheat I feel itching under my skin, which is another sign. I believe this was present before propecia, but I’m sure it is not helping my heath in any case.

I saw a naturopath, showing him results of my hair tests, saliva tests, hormone tests and telling him my symptoms. His first comment was that my adrenals are under stress, and that I was clearly not digesting food well, due to low stomach acid. This is interesting as it confirms my own suspicions.

Along with my diet I now take nystatin, oregano oil, digestive enzymes, and magnesium. I haven’t seen any major changes yet, but last week something really noticeable did happen: I had a wet dream. My first sexual experience in four and a half years off propecia. I don’t believe that this can be unrelated to my protocol. No change in libido though.

I will continue with this regime, and to follow the advice of my naturopath, and see where it takes me. Even if it does not lead to recovery, I feel better now than I have since taking propecia and that is helpful in itself. I will update again in a few months.

To the doubters, you are very welcome to doubt my approach, which I admit is speculative. And I admire and thank those who are pressing for a scientific solution. Here, I am simply documenting what I am doing because I believe it is helpful to add knowledge of any sort to the forum, so that we get closer to understanding what works and what does not for us. I am in no way advocating any particular regime.

Stay positive, that’s the most important thing.

Hear hear! clap clap Nice to see you being determined and productive! :slight_smile: I’m as well going to do this as my money permits (i’m there 50%) so naturally, i hope you post time to time. I don’t want to speculate if this is a good theory, i’m just following my body - any time i’ve reduced carbohydrates, my listnessness (huge problem if you want to do school or a job… to gain money to eg. fund recovery or research or anything) and brainfog gets so much better. So we shall see if we improve our lives, right? Good luck.

Hi everyone. It’s been a while since I posted, so I thought I would update on what I have learned so far…

I’ve been on a fascinating journey looking into functional medicine approaches to treating my symptoms (which are basically the same as most of us on here - low sex drive, poor sleep, poor digestion etc-). My interest in this approach developed from seeing that most people on here that have recovered or had an alleviation in symptoms have essentially followed the tenets of a functional medicine approach (ie treating hypothyroidism naturally, treating fungal infections, eating a paleo diet etc-).

So, this is what I’ve learned about what is definitely wrong with me:

  • Low body temperature/hypothyroidism - Mine temp is stupidly low - around 96.3 degrees farenheit upon waking, and peaking at around 97.5 mid-afternoon. This is considerably lower than where it should be, and a clear indication of being hypoT. This is supported by my very low metabolism (my pulse rarely gets above 55, and it should be closer to 70) and test results showing very low T3 and T4, and elevated RT3

  • Candida. This isn’t some made up infection, as some conventional docs would argue; this stuff is real. I’ve been following a lot of the discussions that have been going on at the Candida Diet Forum and the Curezone candida forum (I highly recommend these btw). I found that the way most people have had success in beating candida, which seems to be a really hard thing to kill, is by taking regular anti-fungal enemas. I did this for a while (using Nystatin), and saw a whole load of candida coming out of me (long, stringy-like things). It’s disgusting, and now I understand that this is what is behind the sugar cravings that I have, and severe intolerance to wheat, gluten and dairy that I have developed post-finasteride.

  • Leaky gut syndrome. Again, this is very real and really very damaging. If you have candida, you’re pretty much guaranteed to have this. It means that there are holes in your gut, caused by candida boring through your gut lining, which means that bits of food make it out into the blood stream (where they should not go) and cause you to have allergic reactions. Now I understand why I break out into loads of spots whenever I eat wheat/dairy/gluten and some other foods. Leaky gut essentially gives you allergies to these foods, and my allergies have worsened significantly since taking Propecia.

  • Shockingly low stomach acid. This is another reason why I struggle with digestion. If you want to check if you have this problem too, take the hydrochloric acid test. This entails eating a meal with some protein and taking some HCL with the meal. If you have normal stomach acid you should feel a burning sensation in your stomach when you supplement with even one HCL tablet. But if it’s low then you will not. The idea is that you add more and more pills until you do feel the burning sensation that a normal person would have. Well, it takes me at least four pills with any meal until I even feel a hint of burning sensation. Clearly I’m producing very little stomach acid.

  • Dry skin. I’ve noticed that my skin get’s a whole lot worse if I eat things that I shouldn’t (wheat/gluten etc-). But if I eat well then it tends not to become dry. I’ve noticed a significant improvement in this since really refining my diet to be totally paleo (as I have for the last 6 months).

So what does this all mean? Well, essentially the more that I research, test, theorise, I believe that the root of many of our problems are digestive. And the more I research the more I realise that it is quite possible that finasteride has simply trapped us in a severe, viscious cycle of the symptoms I describe above. What’s really interesting is that, as I peruse Curezone and listen to loads of functional health podcasts, I realise that our symptoms are actually not dissimilar to those of many other people who did not take finasteride, but, due to other reasons, have developed the same problems. The difficulty is that these problems tend to perpetuate each other and therefore make it very difficult to recover. Th visicious cycle (in a simplified form) could work as follows:

Candida causes low stomach acid, which means you can’t digest food properly, which means you don’t get the nutrients you need to support your adrenal function, which causes your thyroid glands to deteriorate, which gives you low body temperature and creates an environment in which candida thrives.

This is a simplistic portraytal of the cycle, but it is very real problem, and I absolutely refute doctors, and some people on this site, who suggest that these issues do not at least cause some of our symptoms. I KNOW I have these problems, as I have rigorously tested myself for them, and I’d be surprised if many others don’t share them.

And, if you look at those people who have recovered/improved significantly from finsteride, they have all treated at least one of the problems I describe. Some have taken natural thyroid/adrenal glands, some have tackled fungal infections, some have eaten a very simplistic paleo/probiotic diet to boost gut recovery. My belief is that breaking this viscious cycle offers us all hope of at least significant improvement.

So, after all the research and testing I’ve done, my theory is that I already had a candida infection prior to taking finasteride (I’m confident this is the case as I had rosacea and minor food allergies since the age of about 10 - which is a common symptom of candida). So the preconditions for a major infestation were already in place. Then, upon taking finasteride, a major candida infestation resulted, as my body temperature dropped suddenly due to reduced thyroid function, trapping me in the viscious cycle I have described. I am not certain this is the cause of all of our problems - I could be wrong. It could be, for instance, that we have permanently reduced ability to create certain hormones. But I am a believer and I like to think that trying to break this viscious cycle could resolve symptoms for some, if not all of us. But it is very, very hard to do and, I believe, requires a targeted supplementation programme and a very strict diet over the long-term (1-2 years at least).

This is my plan for the next year or so:

  1. remove my mercury fillings. Looking back, my first candida symptoms coincided with having a mercury amalgam fitted at the dentist, aged around 10. I think mercury toxicity may be preventing me from being able to recover from candida
  2. treat leaky gut/candida in symbioisis by adhering to the GAPS diet. This is thought to be the best diet for leaky gut and, I believe, could really benefit us. Look it up. I will also take antifungals, as I have seen some of my candida being killed off after taking them.
  3. supplement with natural thyroid hormones and some adrenal glandulars. I have already seen my body temp and metabolism rise a little when I supplement with these, but I think they would have a greater effect if my digestion improves.
  4. take supplements as directed by a functional medicine practioner. I am already seeing someone who has helped me. For instance they recommended that I take magnesium before sleeping, and this has led to me waking up in the night far less often, and has really improved my sleep (which is vital). It’s only since taking magnesium that I realise how bad my sleep has been for the last 5 years.

Will this work? I hope so. I have already seen some improvements in following some of these treatments. Given that I now KNOW these problems exist, at least I feel that I can actually take some targeted treatment rather than just shooting in the dark in the PFS battle.

I will report back in around 6 months time with an update.

One final thing… I used to be very sceptical of ‘alternative’ medical approaches and talk of leaky gut/candida etc- But over the last 5 years that has all changed. The more I have researched and tested, the more I have realised that these are significant problems that are affecting me and probably many of us with PFS. If you don’t believe me then start researching and testing yourself, and I am sure that you will change your mind. The moment I saw loads of candida literally coming out of me, that was when I realised that these issues are real.

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One final point…

I in no way want this thread to become the site of another negative argument (as happened earlier in its development). I know that many on here are very skeptical of the ‘alternative’ approach; that’s fine. You may well be right, and it may be that all the effort I will go to in the coming year to treat myself naturally comes to nothing.

However I am perfectly entitled to pursue treatment as I wish and I think it will benefit others even if it ultimately assimilates evidence AGAINST the ‘alternative’ approach. That’s fine too, and, importantly, it all goes towards furthering our understanding of what works and what doesn’t. I am merely taking a pragmatic approach, largely because I have lost faith in doctors entirely (who universally treat me on the basis of my test results and not my symptoms, even when I am right at the bottom end of the ‘normal’ range) and am doubtful that the solution to our problems will come from the same ‘scientific’ community from where it developed. Again, I hope that I’m proven wrong, but please do not deny me my own approach.

Thanks guys!

Franz- You do not have the answers today, you won’t have them tomorrow and you won’t even have even one after $100K worth of self-treatment. The thread is so packed full of things which are so absolutely 100% wrong it borders on dangerous and should seriously considered being locked. I have not seen more inaccuracies and nonsense in two years.

“The root of many of our problems is digestive?” Umm, no. Absolutely wrong as has been noted by every doc and researcher for the last six years. Leaky gut, candida and mercury poisioning agian? Yawn…

Saying we won’t get answers by the “same scientific community” that brought us Fin is laughable at best. How you can equate the research institutions now being organized by the PFS Foundation to Merck is beyond any explanation.

$1 of actual research > $100K of your self treatment. That’s just a fact, “negative” or not.

I agree these absurd threads need to be closed, ie let’s give Propecia to rats and then diesect them. Come on admin these people are making us look like loonies. If it wasn’t for my creditability my geneticist, wouldn’t of given me the time of day, it only makes me wonder what other scientific institutions think of us. The BS on here really needs to be regulated.

I’ll echo 332’s and Airbore’s sentiments.

He never said his approach was the “ideal” approach.

He never discredited the “scientific” efforts going on in the research labs.

He’s simply battling his condition the best way he can.

At the end of the day, it’s probably “symptom management” but he has a right to take any approach he sees fit.

There are regular members of the forum who are looking for methods to allay their symptoms.

I hope this person continues to post and add to the community.