My problem is Resistance to DHT

[mariovitali]

Hello All,

I have made a couple of posts before here if you want to follow my story. It has been quite a while since i posted but i came back with some interesting info.

I believe that the theory of Resistance to DHT as an autoimmune response fits what is going on with me. I kept a very detailed diary with supplements and food i was getting because i was feeling at times good but at other times really really bad (Low Libido, Depression, Insomnia, Forgetfullness, etc)

I have analyzed this information to see what supplements / food made me feel better or worse. For me there has been always a tinnitus which would signal problems (Loss of libido, Insomnia etc).

By analyzing data i have found that i felt better (ie no tinnitus) while eating red peppers. I realized that red peppers contain astaxanthin which is a 5-AR inhibitor. The same applies with mushrooms (They are Estradiol regulators AND DHT inhibitors).

I ran the following test : I began eating for 15 days mushrooms daily. Results : No tinnitus but my libido went to 0 (because of DHT inhibition)

When i stopped eating mushrooms then slowly DHT came back up and -sure enough- my skin started to feel oily again, i had nocturnal erection (my libido is back) but i also got tinnitus 5 times during the day (=autoimmune response). Now it is time for me to experience Insomnia, Brain Fog and to be depressed.

Now whenever i get tinnitus i also get dandruff which does not go away with dandruff shampoos. I believe that this is the immune system attacking the DHT present on the hair follicles. But the problem is that DHT is NOT only existent in the hair follicles.

So we are on a Catch-22 situation

-Use of a 5-AR inhibitor means no neurological, psychological, Brain Fog problems etc but…no libido
-Use methods to increase DHT (I have tried with Creatine and Whey Protein and it works) but my immune system goes crazy and i believe it also hits regions in my brain (i have done MRIs which show that - plz read older posts) that bring Depression, Neurological Problems, RLS, etc.

Seems to me the only way is to keep DHT on a level that is sufficient to have libido but not to activate an auto-immune response. Catch-22

EDIT : Note the following post in which a user named “noniman” used Sorghum seeds to boost DHT production. This is what he says

"Things were going okay with the sorghum but in the past couple of days i have experienced some some tinnitus, imsonia and shrinkage.The insomnia is quite bad - almost as bad as when i quit finasteride.

I would advise any other forum member who tries sorghum to be on your guard for these symptoms.

I will probably stop for a few weeks and try another cycle and see how it goes. Sorghum is supposed to be very good for the immune system."

This is autoimmunity towards DHT. Then a user named “SeeYouInHellMerck” Says :

“interesting that it seemed to have the opposite effect that one would anticipate…”

The answer is that because we (or at least some of us) have developed autoimmunity to DHT, if you try to increase it your immune system kicks in. I have to find in which parts of the human body DHT exists apart from adrenals and skin.

Mario

[noniman]

@mariovitali

we (or at least some of us) have developed autoimmunity to DHT, if you try to increase it your immune system kicks in. I have to find in which parts of the human body DHT exists apart from adrenals and skin.

Mario

Good post man. Makes perfect sense.

Where do we go from here?

[spstriken]

I am sure we have anti bodies against 5AR or Androgen receptors or DHT but we need solid scientific evidence to prove it. No more mumbling.
I am ready to share the cost for such tests.

[tim1911]

@spstriken

I am sure we have anti bodies against 5AR or Androgen receptors or DHT but we need solid scientific evidence to prove it. No more mumbling.
I am ready to share the cost for such tests.

Why not talk to the pfs foundation, tell them you want to contribute to the funding of the tests and im sure they will have the contacts to help out with the testing.

If your interested mario theres already a huge thread on this

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5589

[spstriken]

I have sent dozen of emails to Chicago university hospital for 5AR antibodies tests but they never respond.

[mariovitali]

Hey Guys,

As i have said to sprstriken this is what i will do :

I will start again eating white button mushrooms which will mean my E2 and DHT will drop. Then i will start lowering the dosage each day (meaning eating mushrooms slightly less each day) so that a lower percentage of DHT is blocked.

Hopefully if DHT is introduced to my immune system slowly, my immune system will again “recognize” it. It is much like performing a desensitization for DHT.

Oh another thing. Zinc is important, i had a blood test and i am waiting for results and i am very interested to see what are the levels of zinc in my blood.

I will give this a try and let you know.

[noniman]

@mariovitali

OK After a little bit of more research, i am going to try N-Acetyl Glucosamine.

Mario

Good on you for trying this. I hope you will see some benefit.

[noniman]

Mario:

N-ACETYL GLUCOSAMINE Side Effects & Safety

Asthma: Researchers aren’t sure why, but glucosamine might make asthma worse in some people. If you have asthma, use caution when trying glucosamine.

Diabetes: Some early research suggested that glucosamine might raise blood sugar in people with diabetes. However, more reliable research indicates that glucosamine does not seem to significantly affect blood sugar control in people with type 2 diabetes. As long as you routinely monitor your blood sugar, you can probably take glucosamine safely.

Surgery: N-acetyl glucosamine might affect blood sugar levels and might interfere with blood sugar control during and after surgery. Stop taking N-acetyl glucosamine at least 2 weeks before a scheduled surgery.

[moonman1]

I don’t subscribe to any particular theory…but thought I should just point out that it is prolly best to actually measure your DHT and other hormones before and during you 5ar upregulating and downregulating episodes. Without tangible proof that your DHT actually rises/lowers its hard to put any faith in it.

For example, a user here did exactly what your doing and was VERY meticulous to what he ate, but actually did track his blood DHT levels and he mentioned that he always felt better (slightly) when he upregulated 5ar and DHT. Contradictory to what you say you feel…

Either way, I’ll def be following along…

[mariovitali]

Moonman1,

Yes i am fully with you. I also believe that we should measure as many things as we can to reach a safe conclusion. It is just that over the years i have learned so well to listen to my body : So Whenever i have oily skin my libido comes back. Whenever i inject HCG i dont feel like eating too much. Whenever i have tinnitus i cannot sleep that well and get up around 4:30 am,etc. But in the end, the numbers tell us everything.

Plus, there are so many ways that we are affected by finasteride. Some have managed to overcome their problems, some not and some of us are somewhere in between.

Noniman,

Thanks Man, i will have that in mind. The thing is, i feel better when i eat a lot of sugar and the cases of “attacks” i am getting are significantly lower -and data prove this- when i exceed 7 teaspoons of sugar a day. I have read that high insulin lowers the effectiveness of the immune system. N-Acetyl-Glucosamine is derived by sugar.

Based on the analysis i have done this is what helps :

-High sugar intake
-Vitamin D3
-Zinc
-Red Peppers (because of Astaxanthin which lowers DHT)
-Mushrooms (because of -in my opinion / needs to be checked- they lower DHT). Mushrooms lower E2 and i have the blood tests that prove this
-Weather changes seem to aggravate my condition. Recall that many people feel pain (Rheumatoid Arthritis) when weather changes before the Barometric drop happens.

I keep writing everything and the more data i collect the more confidence i will have to what actually helps and what doesnt.

Mario

[Fanjeera]

DHT is an intracellular hormone. How would antibodies reach that? And if you had cellular immunity against DHT, you would fall apart.

[tim1911]

@Fanjeera

DHT is an intracellular hormone. How would antibodies reach that? And if you had cellular immunity against DHT, you would fall apart.

Just for your FYI there is 3 studies on the forum about antibodies attacking an enzyme (1 specifically about 5 alpha reductase) and 1 about an antibody attacking t4.

Men have lost muscle, bone, have shrunken genitals, sever neurological symptoms, lost all sex drive, lost all energy and motivation. I would say that is fallen apart.

Mario,

Personally i think the resistance is against the type 2 enzyme, and why you are feeling better by reducing dht is because,

In the adult prostate, 5 alpha-reductase gene expression is under feedforward control, in which the product of the enzyme, dihydrotestosterone, stimulates the expression of the gene.

Androgens stimulated expression of the type 2 gene in the urogenital tracts of both sexes, but did not effect expression of the type 1 gene or the cell type-specific expression patterns of the 5 alpha-reductase genes.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8584033

Also fanjerra to answer your statement about still loosing hair, this is not true for many men on the forum, some do, some dont, some at a slower rate.

The interest in the inhibition of enzymes by their specific antibodies stems mainly from the fact that these systems can serve as suitable models in the study of neutralization of biologically active molecules in general. The interaction of enzymes with their specific antibodies generally leads to a reduction in their enzymatic activity. The mechanism of this inhibition is rarely a direct combination of the antibodies with the catalytic site, but is rather due to steric hindrance, namely, barring the access to the active site. In several systems the mechanism of the antibody effect is by conformational changes which it induces on the enzyme. In these cases, the interaction with the antibody may result either in inhibition or in enhancement of the enzymatic activity. In every instance, however, the effect of the antibody is dependent on its narrow specificity, namely, on the regions of the enzyme to which it is directed. The extent of inhibition or enhancement is, therefore, a reflection of the nature and distribution of the various antigenic determinants on the enzyme molecule.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/47683

[tim1911]

DHT, but not testosterone, at 10(-7) M significantly increased 5 alpha R activity (rat, 1.5 +/- 0.3% to 3.0 +/- 0.4%; human, 7.6 +/- 1.7% to 11.4 +/- 2.9%; P < 0.01)

endo.endojournals.org/content/133/2/447

Fanjeera this next study shows how an antibody could get inside the cell, cells that contain 5AR2.

We studied the tissue distribution and cellular localization of 5 alpha-reductase 2, the human prostatic isoenzyme, in different human tissues, both cryostat-sectioned and paraffin-embedded. Polyclonal antibodies raised in rabbits against a native peptide (C-terminal amino acids 229-254) or synthetic peptides (amino acids 234-245), either as carrier-conjugated linear peptides or multiple antigen peptides (MAP), were assayed for specificity and sensitivity with Western blotting and an ELISA system. One antibody showing monospecificity on Western blots and in ELISA was used for immunohistochemical detection of the respective antigen in tissues from male and female subjects. Positive cells were found (with decreasing intensity) in inner epithelial sheath of hair follicles, pyramidal cells of the cerebral cortex, hepatocytes and bile duct cells, prostate epithelial cells, seminal vesicle epithelial cells, endothelial cells of small vessels, fat cells, fibrocytes of genital and extragenital organs, and smooth muscle cells of prostate and seminal vesicles. Some variation in the immunoreactivity of testis and ovary tissue was seen with different antibodies. 5 alpha-Reductase 2 is obviously not restricted to androgen target organs in the male, but is present in a large number of cells and tissues in both males and females.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8157936

Im not going to tell you this is it, cause im not sure. Im not trying to talk you into this theory. That should answer your question.

[mariovitali]

Tim1911

This is great stuff, thanks. Though i think that this is not resistance (it was my mistake to use this term) but rather an autoimmunity towards DHT.

I am not sure as to how many people have problems with orthostatic hypotension and acute vasoconstriction (i have). Since DHT exists in the adrenals then there is yet one more potential side effect added to the list.