Jack, not everyone who has a perfect hormonal profile has recovered, as we’ve seen from guys who are on TRT post Fin. They may get their numbers back in range and feel no different. So do not discount the fact his values are in range, yet he is still having problems.
Also, because Finasteride has a flat dose response rate, even if he was splitting 1 Propecia pill into 8ths (0.125mg/day), he was still inhibiting nearly the same amount of DHT as 1mg. And since DHT levels can take up to a week to return to baseline from a single dose, DHT was being surpressed during this time.
Unfortunately with a brief hormonal profile like that most Doctors would shrug things off… however, there may be other imbalances which have yet to be found or tested for.
C’mon, you believe someone can cut a Propecia pill into 1/8ths and still have it metabolize into their system? it would never even make it down ur throat. Don’t u realize the pill is coated to survive the trip down to ur stomach?
THERE IS NO WAY TO BREAK THE PILL INTO 1/8THS AND STILL HAVE IT METABOLIZE PROPERLY AS THE PILL IS CRUSHED AND LOSES ITS POTENCY.
Please review the published list of diagnosis for ED/Sexual dysfunction. It mostly revolves around physical damage, vascular disease, and a small percentage of hormonal issues…rest are physchological.
Those who were on TRT have never recovered cuz they threw their Estrogens out of balance.
First of all, I made an assumption that 19 was cutting his into 8ths. He could just as well been quartering it like so many other hairloss sufferers do to try and save money and reduce the chance of side effects.
I myself was able to cut Proscar into 8ths and have it work just as well as when I was taking it quartered. And the side effects continued even at the lower dosage, so yes it obviously WAS being metabolized and survived the trip down to my stomach.
Also, one of the reasons for the coating is to prevent pregnant women from being exposed to the active ingredient (Finasteride), since its a risk to developing fetuses.
No, it doesn’t lose it’s potency when it’s “crushed” – due to the flat dose response of the drug.
I and tons of other guys on hairloss forums took/are taking Propecia or Proscar quartered or 8thed to save $ (and possibly reduce the chance of side effects), and it works to grow hair just fine when it’s “crushed” or “cut”, since unless you get down to 0.05mg (impossible for us to cut that small), the drug inhibits nearly the same amount of DHT due to the flat dose response.
Such studies are on this forum, and I have reviewed them. As I mentioned before, just because someone’s hormones are in range doesn’t rule everything out. There could be hormones that may be out of range that 19 hasn’t had a chance to test yet. There could be neurosteroid issues involved, since Fin does more than block just DHT via inhibition of the 5AR pathway (Allopregnanolone, THDOC, DOC, GABA interference etc). Or there could be physical changes due to androgen (DHT) deprivation that occured which have yet to rectify themselves.
Unfortunately as you know, its not as simple as “your hormones are in range so it must be all in your head”, because if that were the case that would make every single person here with technically “in range” hormones, like myself, a straight up liar about these side effects – which is why this forum exists in the first place, because they DO exist. Yet here I am still experiencing sexual side effects almost 2 years later, despite a hormonal profile most endos would claim is “normal”. So your argument really has no merit in my eyes – it just seems you want to stir shit up and create animosity.
You know that Finasteride can cause these problems in some men just like the rest of us, so stop trying to tell people they are hypochondriacs. If they weren’t having issues, they wouldn’t be here and frankly, you’re not helping the support situation by trying to inflame people by essentially calling them liars.
I don’t want to argue with you. I’m just curious why psychologic issues have been identified and accepted widely by the medical community?
Why does that diagnosis exist?
Thanks Mew. This forum is the last place i want to spend my time and people hurling abuse at me doesn’t help anyone.
To make things clear i didn’t always cut it up into pieces. I started off by taking the whole dose but when side effects kicked in i reduced the dose after reading the article that showed a low dose had the same effect.
My plan is now to cover all grounds and see what makes me feel better. First off is allopregnanolone which by taking low dose progesterone cream i hope to eliminate the effect or just the potential of allopregnanolone as a problem.
When it comes to THDOC, DOC and GABA i am unsure what is best. I obviously don’t want to do anything risky but problems like my vision are getting very irritating. Light at night really is messed up. I’m sure not being able to see properly is all in my head according to rockin813. And i think he’s right in the way that my problems are definately brain related. Just not psychosomatic.
Hormones are good so thats a plus and i think eliminates the chance of this being a permanent problem.
But again advice on how to deal with the other things would be good. Adrenal glands i’m hoping will recover if fatigued by a good diet, exercise, lots of sugar and sleep etc…
Dude, this stuff obviously fucks with some prostates!
I’m not necessarily a believer that its permanent, but its very real. I only took the shit for 20 days and I was very sexually active at the time, and it injured something, thank God I’m recovering though!
But I did get bit somehow.
Also, I am not a believer in whether someone took it… 1 month, 6 month, 2 years differences, they are worse. I believe that if you get bit you get bit thats all, but anyone can recover.
I just can’t understand where you come from thinkin you’re a know-all rockin moron.
I can maybe see a little a what you are doing, but you’re bein kind of an ignorant fuck! pretty insensitive, and rude! So lighten the fuck up you fuckin bitch ok!!
You’re the type of guy I just wish I could have this conversation in person with…
Original email stating the dose was very minimal to say the least.
So why did you continue when the side effects hit? What makes you think a lowered dose would be any different? Mew, before you suggest a lowered dose gives the same flat dose response or whatever the studies says…the side effects occur when the medicine is effective. In some folks the medicine can be effective w/out sides…in others the sides are there. It’s the reaction to medicine that gives the sides…not simply the amount.
That’s typical behaviour of Hypochnodriacs. They tell a story that best fits the conditions they think they have.
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I obviously don’t want to do anything risky but problems like my vision are getting very irritating. Light at night really is messed up. I’m sure not being able to see properly is all in my head according to rockin813
Wow a proven medicine to help prostates is now considered to mess them up.
I’m not a know all…I just know enough to comment on how some of your theories are not accurate.
Ok firstly i do have glasses. Secondly yes the prescription was checked in a routine eye checkup and thirdly oh my god you’re a cock. Why do you bother? Its light that fucks them up especially at night.
You’re argument is flat on weak. I have not retconned my story in any way. I took a lower dose meaning less of the drug itself in the system which would decrease the risk of side effects which is obvious because those who take 5mg of proscar develop worse side effects. So less i thought would reduce the chance. If you want to know how i cut the pill up - i used nail clippers. Thats right. It wasn’t the most accurate way i know but right now thats the least of my troubles. I carried on hearing the advice that the sides go away if you keep on it. This is recommended from the company and other successful propecia users. Its not just my elaborate theory.
Most importantly and the thing you should really take into consideration is that i found this forum after i had noted the side effects not the other way round. I had no reason to suspect these side effects to continue after i stopped so had no reason to find this. I wish i did…So stop arguing with me and these people. I’m not an idiot when it comes to health - its why i’m a fucking medical student. So either piss off or say something relevant.
When it comes to the prostate i’m not convinced to be honest with you boston. I know its a possibility but i think theres a central issue i think encompassing all major symptoms. I’m not saying you’re wrong but thats just the feeling i get. But just in case it is what do you recommend?
I don’t have an arguement. I’m not arguing. I’m simply telling you that you in fact are a hypochondriac.
Drs themselves say that 70% of medical students are hypochondriacs.
You can diagnose yourself! But I highly doubt you are a medical student, if you are than I can’t see you passing Step I boards. How will you treat patients as you can’t see with the lights on!!!
I think this proves that 0.2mg of Finasteride for hair loss does not prevent or reduce the possibility of side effects. You’re still lowering your DHT to the same level, and it’s the continuance of the drug that increases your risk of sides wether they be temporary or permanent.
Recently i was starting to get more spontaneous erections (no visually stimulated) but then i masturbated more than usual and erections have become a rarity again.
Lack of sleep and tiredness make mood and vision seem a lot worse. My eyes are still the same - no improvement
Stress amplifies symptoms.
Saw Dr Minhas who told me to see endo, opthamologist, get Doppler and even an overnight study - not sure about this.
Penile length is not the problem. Narrowing and curve and rotation - are the problems. What could cause shrinkage of testes if not hormonal problem?
Progesterone cream does not work for me. I thought it ma have been as i felt something going on in m head esp. when i had some lucozade but since nothing.
Started L-Arginine.
Mood still very flat and emotionally feel blunted and still feeling a bit slow mentally.
Thats about it. I want to try and avoid this forum as much as possible to help me stop worrying. Dr Minhas thought that a large psycological aspect is playing part here. However, he didn’t seem to know of many people who had taken propecia and had these side effects…if more of uk people see him i think he’ll take a bigger interest.
I have been off the drug for about 20 months. About 3-4 moths ago I “reconnetced” emotionally, i.e. from being pretty numb emotionally I started to feel something. At the same time, my depression started to get better. It may have been connected to the exoerience stated above, but I can´t say for sure. I have been experiencing brainfog and vision problems since I stopped taking Fin so I initially thought that I got depressed because of this.
I have similar vision problems as 19 describes; at night, lights are very difficult to have in your vision. Also I have difficulties reading, I dont know if it is the contrast of black letter on white paper or what. I have been to 3 opticians and one eye doctor and the all state that they have rarely examined a person with such good vision, i.e. nothing wrong there. I suspect that it may have something to do with the structure where the optic nerves originates. Maybe some imbalance of receptors or ligands that directly or indirectly affects the vision.
I tried L-tyrosine a week ago, 500 mg in the morning and 500 mg at lunch daily and I actually felt very focused and concentrated. The brainfog is almost gone! But I am afraid what tyrosine can cause re side effects in the long run, I mean look what finasteride did…I know that tyrosine is an amino acid needed in our body but at these concentrations? Well I don´t know how long I dare to take tyrosine, but it works…
In my experience (besides my M.Sc in chemical engineering, I am also performing ph.d studies at the institution of neuroscience, dep. of pharmacology at Uppsala University in sweden, only 25 % active though…) problems like this are rarely, not to say never, one dimensional. That is, our body has a complex way of adjusting neurotransmitters in a multidimensional fashion when receptors or ligands ar inhibited or stimulated, i.e. several neurotransmitters are down- or up regulated codependent or independent of each other when treated with endogenous or exogenous substances. Additionally, I am very concerned with the statistics used in many biological studies. Be critical in the way some scientists use statistics in studies…you cant convert data as you please or just assume normal distribution, for example, for any set of data. You have to know what you are doing. It is easy to manipulate data with statistics to make something appear to be something it is not. Some of the publications I have read would make Gauss turn in his grave…
But not to be negative I feel better generally, but I am not totally recovered, maybe 80-90%. I have hope. I hope that I and you guys will beat this , I really do.
/Andreas
I feel better generally, but I am not totally recovered, maybe 80-90%.
No, there was no treatment involved in reconnecting emotionally, self recovering.
Another question: is there anyone experiencing difficulties in getting women pregnant post finasteride treatment? Is there anyone, anyone else than me that is, concerned that this may have effected, not just the quantity of sperm but also quality?
/Andreas
Studies reveal fertility problems due to Finasteride and 5AR inhibitors in general can be an issue… the 2nd link is regarding actual “quality” of sperm.
Since this is an issue that concerns me down the line here I am always keeping an eye on any information that would document a problem based on finasteride use. Fortunately after reviewing all those studies, there isn’t anything too conclusive there, or that is worth you stressing that finasteride will be a large contributor to a fertility problem. In the one study the guy had a vericocele which has a offers a much larger infertility percentage.
My question would be did you have your semen checked? Then you can decide if it’s worth worrying about the “what if’s.”
No I haven´t checked my semen. The question just struck my the other day when my wife and I was discussing having another child. I will most certainly test my semen, thanks for tip.
Have your eyes improved at all Game_Over? ? My eyes are my biggest concern. It seems like a constant reminder that i’m ill. I think this contributes greatly to the depression that comes with it. Have you seen a neurologist at all? I hope in time te body can sort it out but for me its been 7 months now and no improvement. I noticed after a particurlarly stressful evening i woke up seeing black spots in m vision which haven’t gone since when i look at bright objects. Very light sensitive - diplopia in one eye when i see bright objects. Going into a brigh supermarket is like hell. Seeing slightly different colours in each eye but the colours switch from eye to eye meaning it must be an interpretation problem. I also wake up with my eyes sticking together which makes it even harder to get up. I get alot of crusty stuff around my eye. Its really awful coz i’m not exaggerating any of this. Does anyone have any ideas?
I feel better generally, but I am not totally recovered, maybe 80-90%. I have hope. I hope that I and you guys will beat this , I really do.