Yeah i will probably get a through thyroid investigation done. Regarding free T i am not sure whats happening my total T levels seem fine but the DHT levels are double the generally assumed 10 percent to T ratio.
I started 1000mcg methylcobalamin its been about 2 days, so far so good , the composition of the tablet i take has 100 mg ALA too. I spoke to a friend who happens to be a doctor and he thinks other rich sources of B12 would be to consume lamb liver daily.
Another severe symptom i am suffering from is chronic dry eyes. I have been diagnosed with it and undergoing treatment. I would rate this the worst side effect, its just unbearable!
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My results were almost identical before I started TRT. Low E2, low free T, normal highish total T. Exactly the same.
What doesn’t make sense is your free T still being that low despite your SHBG not being very high. My SHBG was 150+ (yeah, crazy high), so it made sense how I could have normal or high total T but still have low free T. Your results don’t totally make sense in that regard.
If you look up symptoms for low E2 and/or low free T they’ll match up pretty well to your issues. Maybe it’s the problem, maybe it’s not, I don’t know, but it shouldn’t be discounted. I ignored my results for a year thinking oh I have plenty of total T so there’s no way that’s the problem only to find out I was wrong.
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Your E2 is extremely low! I can’t imagine how you are feeling with level this low. Coincidentally, your DHT is supraphysicial and this makes total sense. I posted over and over about how optimal ratios (T:E2 & E2:DHT) either make it or break it.
I had an E2 level hovering around 14-19 pg/mL despite high-normal T and I had all sorts of symtpoms! I was nearly suicidal and I couldn’t pinpoint the exact cause except E2 showing up too low every time I got a bloodwork.
My biggest challenge was to find a way to raise E2 to be in the optimal range of ~20-30. Most men with symptoms often underestimate E2 and only focus on T & DHT and I can’t blame them for it since most online articles, forums, & even studies link them to masculinity, high sex drive, motivation, and well-being while totally dismissing E2. Heck it took me forever trying to find one single study on low E2 causes in men.
I’ll say it one more time. Stay away from any E2 lowering stuff including (but not limited to) high dose of fat soluble vitamins D, A, K, & E, Fish oil high in EPA/DHA, Melatonin, All anti aromatase drugs, green tea, high dose Zinc, SAMe and cruciferous vegetables.
You also need to raise your T to raise E2 conversion.
Check this out this excerpt:
“This strongly suggests that this action of T on the brain is mediated by its aromatization to oestradiol. Oestrogens interact with acetylcholinergic, serotonergic (5-HT), monoamine oxidase activity and catecholaminergic systems of the brain, but also through estrogen-induced synapse formation. The latter two are implicated in depression and schizophrenia. With aging, men show declining T levels, and for men T is the precursor for oestrogens”.
& this:
“It may be expected that estrogen, via neurotransmitter pathways, may have effects on mood, declarative memory, motivation and cognition such as verbal fluency.
Earlier studies have questioned the relevance of oestrogens in human male sexuality. A recent study found that oestrogen replacement in an aromatase deficient man increased libidinous aspects of sexuality”.
As a side note, just like the other posters said you also need to bring your TSH level down to close to 1.00 as you may have subclinical hypothyroidism if your ft4 and ft3 are lowish.
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Hello bro. Apology for taking forever to response as I’ve been away from the forum for a while. In all honesty, I’m deliberately doing this to get over years of infinite suffering and winding up here is a constant reminder, sadly.
I’ll provide more details on my experiment later as I’m in such a rush right now. Get well soon!
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Hi all,
I’ve been feeling stable as in calm, social and without brainfog and free of the other PFS symptoms for the past 2 months or so. I’d describe my feeling as being euphoric and social for the most part but I kind of felt that I was way too relaxed in a sense that I’d feel utterly fine doing nothing at all. It’s weird but I got this feeling when I introduced some Probiotics. I think they boosted my Serotonin, Oxytocin & endorphins which produced these effects.
As always, I tinkered with the idea of re-Introducing herbs and supplements namely Mucuna, DHEA, Tribulus & D-Aspartic acid. I thought these may help me get more motivation and boost my libido along the process. So I started taking them and Boy did they make me Superman! Raging libido and boners all day everyday for about 3 weeks but as always great things never last! I think my body has learned to neutralize the effects of different chemicals way too quickly.
Anyhow, I started getting symptoms of anxiety/depression again and I had this bizarre itchy rash on my lower leg and my finger joints were also hurting, so I consulted with a dermatologist who diagnosed it as eczema and asked If I was stressed out as of late and prescribed a topical corticosteroid and an antihistamine medication. I was so surprised since I never had allergy or eczema in my entire life.
My explanation would be that DHEA, which is pro inflammatory in its nature and inhibits cortisol had caused my histamine to flare up causing allergic reactions and some sort of Autoimmunity. My histamine was already high to begin with because I was experimenting with various probiotics and certain strains were the histamine producing ones. This is one more reason to subscribe to the notion that PFS is somehow linked to AI.
I remember getting a hair transplant in 2015 and the doctor prescribed topical corticosteroid and somehow I was symptoms free back then. I quit the corticosteroids in early 2016 and this was when PFS symptoms hit me real hard. That was also the time when I overdid antibiotics for treating some STIs. I also recall my gut function was compromised with symptoms of constipation and bloating and several Internists had ruled it out as full-blown IBS without further digging.
So I ended up taking high dose vitamin C last night only to wake up this early morning with a boner and feeling superb. I had a good dream too. I think it reduces inflammation in a certain dose! At any rate, I’ll try and drop DHEA for now and continue to take Vitamin C and report more progress later.
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Quick update:
Took high dose Vitamin C again last night and skipped probiotics & DHEA today. Guess what? I’m feeling better already with less itchy legs/rash.
Guys, try Vitamin C at bedtime if you’re experiencing symptoms of inflammation. It may prove helpful.
Anyhow, for those who are curious this is my current supplement plan:
General multivitamin (nothing exceeds 100% RDA)
Very low dose Mucuna (~60mg L-Dopa)
Tongkat Ali
Vitamin C
Iron (my Ferritin was low)
Coconut oil. For sat fat.
Manuka honey. I’m experiencing with it.
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Update:
I’m now more convinced than ever that imbalanced T:E2 & E2:DHT lies at the core of many PFS cases. The theory, in over simplified manner, goes something like this:
Individual X experience MPB type of hair loss and starts ingesting/applying 5ARs inhibitors (finesteride, Dut, SP, ketoconazole…etc.) to block androgens namely DHT. This causes T:E2 & E2:DHT imbalances leading to myriad of issues at celllular level (including the brain) for different individuals, which often make them opt to quit the used blocker(s) mostly in a cold turkey fashion. This often leads to some sort of 5AR over expression causing a major rebound effect for androgens. Btw, there’s a similar rebound effect (for estrogen) that’s very common within trt community when stopping AIs such as Arimidex among others.
The 5AR over expression causes an acute increase in T conversion to DHT and androgen hypersensitivity at receptors level, which again leads to more ratios imbalance. I’ve included many studies in my previous posts on how E2 being critical to proper Testosterone functioning. In layman’s terms, Testosterone and DHT are useless without balanced E2. Many posters on here have attempted numerous treatment protocols and recovery plans and I’ve come to realize that most were/are revolving around manipulating E2 one way or another.
Let’s explore a few examples:
Progesterone: causes E2 inhibition & prolactin elevation. This likely leads to temporary E2 increase upon discontinuation (again think rebound effect) and this is likely why most users report experiencing positive effects albeit temporarily. Obviously it has many other functions in Men that are not widely understood. I don’t like the idea of tampering with it.
DHEA: it is believed that taking high dose DHEA increases E2 in Men via conversion. It may also help stabilize Cortisol to DHEA ratio and there’s still much unknown about its affect in the body. It’s also a very unpredictable hormone and I persobally tried micro doses but I’m not sure it was helping.
Trt: while many PFSers report it didn’t help them much probably due to 5AR over expression. It helps elevate T, E2 & DHT but finding that sweet spot for T:E2 can be hit or miss. Ask anyone on trt. I did trt before (250mg/wk) and I felt amazing but I opted not to be on trt my whole life. Thing is, I also experienced low libido and depression when I overdid Arimidex whilst on trt. Notice any link? Yes I screwed up the ratio despite very high T (900+) & DHT but E2 was crushed.
Corticosteroids: they’re potent anti-inflammatory as well as immunosuppressants. Guess what else they do? Increase E2 along the process. It did with me. But they also come up with their problems especially with chronic use.
Arimidex or any other AI: inhibits aromatase enzyme and this may help when E2 is very high. But yet again it’s very easy to get E2 way too low and experience bad symptoms and aromatase over expression (think of reverse to Finesteride effect). The one symptom that I really loathe about having very low E2 is that it weakens my joints and connective tissues beside making feel extremely inferior to others and socially awkward. I advise you to steer clear from prescription AIs.
Herbs such as Tongkat Ali: reduce SHBG which allows for more free Testosterone (and E2) floating around. This is one of rare herbs that actually works and is supported by research.
Vitamins A& D, & minerals such as Zinc, Magnesium & Boron: increases endogenous Testosterone in case of deficiency. They may help increase E2 via conversion of T but yet again could also inhibit E2 in high doses. All fat soluble vitamins are known to inhibit E2 in high doses.
Clomid & other SERMs: They block E2 receptors at brain and this tricks the body into producing more LH & hence Testosterone for E2 conversion via negative feedback loop. That said, many who take clomid also complain of nasty symptoms including mood swings, diminished libido & depression. Rings any bell?
Amino Acids such as Tyrosine, Tryptophan, Phenylalanine, Theanine, Arginine, Uridine… etc etc: now these mostly treat symptoms and not the cause. Increasing Dopamine, Serotonin & Acetylcholine and other neurotransmitters may help with the neurological symptoms most of us experience. But they must be supplemented ED and produce inconsistent results.
I’m pretty sure there’re exceptions out there. But fixing that T:E2 is critical to us. I’ve devoted so much time exploring potential treatments and I always end up becoming the Guinea pig to get a first-hand impression. We’re underestimating the power of estrogen in Men on well-being, libido, intimacy, cognition, memory, hair & skin, fat loss, gut function and many more.
I’m sorry if I keep repeating myself here. But I’ve been in this S**t for far too long and only a year ago is when I started my real journey to recovery and I really wish to save others years of journey through hell.
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Great explanation!!
As I said before, the results of my prostate ultrasound are ready. The result was 4 x 2.5 x 2.7 cm, with an estimated weight of 15.3g. My doctor said the size is normal, but what still leaves me in doubt:
A) Is this really a normal size or a smaller size? Will progesterone further reduce the size of my prostate?
B) My E-2 is at 19, in a range of “IND - 34”. If I use progesterone, will my E-2 decrease even more? I think I’ll test tiny doses to see what happens.
C) Should I use Vitamin B6 P-5-P along, or is it a waste of money?
A. I wish I could help you Man, but honestly I don’t know much about normal & enlarged prostate size. But if the Dr. says it’s fine then it probably is. There’s also this one more test so called PSA, did you get it done? I say don’t worry too much about prostate. It’s usually a concern for those in their forties and beyond.
B. E2 is one tricky bitch! There’s not one fixed optimal level. Mine was hovering around 15-19 pg/ml and it’s super sensitive to any E2 lowering stuff. I feel best when it’s 19 or higher. Sadly, I don’t have access to Sensitive assay. They say ordinary test is mainly for women and overestimates the value so mine could actually be lower.
What really matters is the ratio. If your T:E2 is ( > 10 & < 30 ) then you probably will feel great and have great libido, morning erections, motivation, well-being, great hair & skin, flexible joints and healthy gut.
It’s highly likely that Progesterone will lower your E2 because everything that I came across states that progesterone has the opposite effect of estrogen. They say E2 is excitatory by nature, meaning it unlocks excitatory neurotransmitters such as Dopamine in the brain and that’s probably why it promotes libido. Progesterone has calming effect so it probably increases prolactin and that’s why it could make you feel like SH*T while you are on it.
C. Vitamin B6 P-5-P also promotes Progesterone. It’s also needed for making Dopamine and other neurotransmitters. My advice for you is to NOT take isolated vitamins because this is what create imbalances.
I’ve been reading about other ways to increase T and E2 and I found out that there’s a specific bacteria in the gut that could help reabsorb some of the excreted estrogen back into the bloodstream. I’m looking for Probiotic brands that contain it.
C) I dont know guys, I would consider measuring B6 before supplementing it. My B6 was results came back 338 nmol/l (ref range 35-110). So supplementing B6 would be a no-go for me. The therapeutist that im working with for vitamin/mineral imbalances says that often when she sees a person with major imbalance in the body, B6 is often elevated. She have seen results way over 1000nmol/l. And also often when B6 is sky high, B12 is also often on the low side. Exactly how it was with me.
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My B-12 turned out to be over the top range and people keep giving ill advice about how taking higher dose B vitamins shouldn’t be a problem since they’re water soluble. I don’t but this crap anymore.
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Update:
Anyone with PFS should take sometime to look into these issues:
- Testosterone:Estradiol
- Inflammation / Immune response
Sometime back I posted about my Probiotic usage and being the Guinea pig. Well, here’s my latest finding:
Immune system activation causes many symptoms that are similar in nature to PFS. These include anxiety, non-existent libido, depression, disrupted sleep and bad digestion.
I have both scientific studies and personal observation to backup my findings. I was using a certain type of Probiotic which is inflammatory in nature (it raises Histamine) because histsmine is touted to affect hormones production. I’ve noticed what appears to be an eczema developing on my lower legs and I never had this before, like ever. I also had severe mood swings and was getting very cold hands (cold insensitivity), digestive problems, joints ache and headache. These are all symptoms of Serotonin (or lack thereof). So I popped 500mg Vitamin C before bed and the following day I woke up feeling relatively good. It turns out that Vitamin C has potent anti-inflammatory properties and there’re studies about this effect. Failure to address immune system disorders leads to neurodegeneration and that may cause major depression!
So to wrap this up:
- Correct T:E2 imbalance. Get a bloodwork to guide you.
- Treat any causes for inflammation and immune system activation. In the meantime, try small doses Vitamin C, Ca, Mg, CoQ10, Zinc & Cu as temporary anti-inflammatories. You can get them through diet except CoQ10.
I stopped the Probiotics and will wait until my immune system calms down and observe if my symptoms improve further.
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IT FUC***G WORK!
I repeated the experiment and took another 500mg Vitamin C and felt amazing within an hour! This can’t be a mere coincidence, can it be?
I’m not saying this is THE CURE to all. I’m just saying that if you’re done fixing your HPTA ( T:E2 & DHT levels) and other chemical imbalances and you’re still not getting better then address any systemic inflammation. Vitamin C only helps with curbing inflammation but doesn’t cure the cause.
Check this excerpt:
"Vitamin C Could Reduce Inflammation. New research has suggested that higher intakes of vitamin C could cut the level of markers for inflammation by an astonishing 45 percent… when the body becomes imbalanced, it loses its ability to produce anti-inflammatory chemicals to counteract that inflammation.”
And this:
"Copious amounts of research have outlined a connection between alterations in immune system function, inflammation status, and MDD. Supporting this connection, peripheral immune activation results in changes in the function and/or expression of many components of 5-HT signaling that are associated with depressive-like phenotypes.”
So it goes something like this:
Triggering factor (e.g. infection, allergen, certain drug, food intolerance, bacteria… bla blal) ------> Immune system hyperactivity -------> inflammation -------> high stress response (High’ish Cortisol, low’ish DHEA, High’ish Progesterone, Low’ish Testosterone, Low’ish E2, Low’ish DHT) -------> adrenal fatigue, joints pain, mood swings, low libido, GI issues, anxiety, brain fog, tiredness… etc etc.
You need to find the triggering factor. In my case, it’s overdosing on this one Probiotic that doesn’t suit me. YOU NEED TO CALM DOWN YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM.
Happy new year!
Update:
I’m trying my best to establish a general understanding on how inflammatory response can be linked with many PFS symptoms. I was doing a lot online reading and searching for studies and experiences and came across this one poster on AnabolicMinds who put it up altogether neatly and nicely while providing necessary supporting evidence.
I’ll quote his post:
"I’ve been researching various studies on pubmed, specifically with an interest in histamine and progesterone.**
Histamine directly promotes an increase in progesterone. Progesterone dirctly promotes an increase in SHBG. This is a self fulfilling function - as SHBG lowers estrogen and testosterone it gives further reign to progesterone and histamine.
High levels of histamine can be created by several factors
(1) dysfunctional immune activity leading to allergies
(2h dehydration - yes, not drinking enough WATER
I am successfully tackling the three ‘partners’ of shbg, progesterone and histamine. I have increased my water intake to 4 litres per day with a drastic reduction in histamine. I am using the natural antihistamine quercetin. A number of studies clearly demonstrate that quercitin effectively inhibits progesterone production and limits estrogen production via aromatase. Quercetin is a natural testosterone booster. I believe it’s properties may have been underestimated in the athletic world. Certainly from reviews on Amazon and iHerb etc, it seems to have excellent effects on reducing sometimes severe allergic reactions.
Currently I’ve been prescribed a unique antihistamine - Ketotifen, a testosterone boosting, immune modulating, h1 and mast cell blocker. It works really well, however, I want to avoid rebound effects of regular use and I’d like to think I can tackle my problem with natural products. I have noted a number of cases of males diagnosed with adrenal fatigue who were able to ‘cure’ their condition with antihistamines. Their ‘burnout’ was created by a hormonal cascade of effects created by high histamine levels.
Progesterone can be a nasty hormone if elevated in males leading to hyperaroused/nervous states. It can consequently deplete cortisol and increase adrenalin - the pounding heart symptom often reported by women on progestin birth control. Progsterone also lowers melatonin, creating insomnia. Histamine does not necessarily have to reveal itself as an external allergic reaction - it can often be internalised to organs like the stomach or gut where it creates havoc with normal processes.
I hope this is useful for folks with unexplained high levels of progesterone, as an avenue to explore and perhaps test with quercetin."
SIMPLY BRILLIANT!
I can relate to everything this dude mentioned above! Double damn! Many of us with overdrive immune system will never feel the same without attacking the issue at the root! This may also explain why many PFSers say they don’t get sick anymore because the immune system is overactive and that causes a surge in histamine. Btw, Testosterone suppresses immune system and vice versa. So by having an overactive immune system we:
- Have higher SHBG & Progesterone
- Have lower T, DHT & E2
- Have symptoms of adrenal fatigue (think CFS)
- Issues with gut & digestion
- Suffer insomnia
- Experience anxiety & mood swings
Mind you there’re other causes for high histamine such as gut dysbiosis in which certain bacterial strains work to produce histamine that DAO in the gut fails to breakdown and thus it’s absorbed into the blood stream causing immune reaction and creation of many hormonal imbalances!
This sketch can help explain different reactions to histamine.
What to do next?
As the poster said, one should tackle the high histamine first and Quercetin can be used in this case. Other useful weapons are Vitamin C, Mg, Ca, Zn, Cu, Vitamin D, CoQ10 & DRINK PLENTY OF WATER. Meanwhile, the root cause for elevated histamine should be addressed. It could be an allergic reaction to certain food or environmental allergen or other cause.
In my personal case, I think it’s the gut! I used this histamine producing bacterial strains and developed an eczema on my lower leg later. So I’ve placed an order for another Probiotic with antihistamine strains to help balance things out.
If all fails, I’m afraid I’ll have to resort to antibiotics.
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Update:
Ok so I’m getting better with the antihistamine/anti-inflammatory cocktail I’m currently on (Quercetin, Vitamin C, Mg, Ca, low dose Zn & Cu from beef liver). My lower leg eczema and achy/clicking joints do seem to be subsiding, but I went to see a dermatologist about it today and she have prescribed a topical Corticosteroid and an antihistamine for 10 days.
While I know that Corticosteroids only mask the symptoms through immune suppression, I’m eager to find out how it might affect my mood, cognition, libido, & erection in the process. I’m sure % of the topical cream will be absorbed systematically and induce effects.
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Doom, thank you for all your post. I’ve been battling for about 3 years now to recover libido and erections. Both are weak and at times non existent. Your histamine post have me searching for a different angle, I wanted to share that I noticed when I take an antihistamine (ZZZ Quil) I wake up with morning erections. When I do not take it I don’t. I originally thought the cause was I was getting better REM sleep but now think I will attempt to pay closer attention to histamine effects on my body. I’m going to try Quercetin myself but will be watching your post closely for your results. Thanks again for sharing what your doing and your progress.
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Potentially a very bad idea.
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I agree with Greek. Any substance shall be thoroughly researched by members before consideration.
I’ve been on 500mg Quercetin ED for 2 weeks now for its purported anti-inflammatory properties. Here are my anecdotal findings:
-
It does seem to slightly help with reducing inflammation/high histamine symptoms since I’m experiencing less eczema flares.
-
It makes me feel cold about 20mins post ingestion. This is most likely due to its anti-thyroid effect (induce temporary hypothyroidism). This is bad
-
Its effect on estrogen/progesterone is not well understood. Though, some studies claim it acts as anti-progesterone. Personally, I think it’s milldly lowering my borderline low E2 since I’m experiencing occasional night sweats, slightly sore joints, increased sensitivity to cold weather & frequent urination.
Again, I advise all members of this forum to practice caution when considering any substance.
That said, there are other “safe” anti-inflammatory alternatives that I mentioned in my previous post. I’m researching Bromelain as a replacement for Quercitin since it’s also purported to lower inflammation.