Thanks, I’ll read more about HGH then. I fit the bill as far as not being diabetic, etc. I’ll take a second look at the prices and see how expensive it would be at those doses
For better or worse I think I’m going to continue with HCG+TRT for at least 6-8 weeks and see if I hit any points where I’m significantly improved. Hopefully even if I have to spend some time dialing estrogen in, etc. I’ll at least get some good days where I can tell if it’s helping or not. We will see I suppose.
I was going through my journal that includes everything that I do and feel everyday and came across this weird yet interesting finding that kept happening over and over in a subtle way:
Every time I take Calcium & Magnesium in a balanced fashion I get morning erections and higher libido. I noticed this because everything’s else almost the same be it diet, supplements, workout… etc.
Calcium seems to give me that energy edge and mental stimulation while Magnesium promotes relaxation and deeper sleep. The result is often heightened libido with erections the next morning.
However, when these two go out of balance I sometimes wake up feeling horrible. Have anyone experienced this?
Currently I dropped almost everything except these two minerals. I want to isolate them to find out whether or not I could duplicate the result.
Quick update
I’m currently experiencing a libido surge.
Changes prior to this:
I’ve cut all T boosters and adaptogens and reduced resistance workout sessions to only 3 per week. I’ve also re-introduced fasting and increased sat fats in diet.
I’ll report more progress later.
first of congrats to this great piece of work in your thread. its interesting as we seem to have so much in common concerning low E2 symptoms. And like u i 100% state that men for sure need estrogen. f*ck those retards on raypeat claiming its bad.i was in their boat but i just doesnt work like that. i think their main concern is to sell very questionable R&D stuff.
right now im experiencing low E2 symptoms too, and i know why: too much melatonin, many carrots,rather frequent aspirin for joint pain,and espresso,which in my case seems a very potent androgen pusher but also aromatase inhibitor. my immunse-system is therofore down and i suffer sinusitis. its sad,because it gives me a bad breath and girls wont approach. but still im progressing quit fast in the gym so i think andorgens are good (oily skin,deepend voice)
how to get the E2 back and a working immune-system back? im trying: yoghurt,a lot coconut oil, steaks, eggs, beer,DHEA. of course im lowering / trying to cut all those aromatase inhibitors.
Super sorry for such a delayed response. I’ve not been visiting the forum as frequent as before because I’ve been trying to get this whole PFS thing out of my head and get on with my life. Sometimes, just getting busy with mundane stuff helps me get through it.
I was on the same band wagon as those numerous Men here and elsewhere who basically thought high E2 was the culprit behind their problem! Damn I feel so stupid now wasting precious years of my life shooting in the dark while not realizing how wrong I was. E2 was never the problem, very low E2 is! I can’t emphasize this enough!
Low E2 symptoms are the shi***st thing one could ever suffer from!
Low libido
Depression
Social anxiety
Painful cracking joints
Worsened hair loss
Bad digestion
Fat gain especially around mid section
Bad skin
Bad cholesterol
Flat muscles
Among numerous other symptoms that would drive anyone crazy!
Heck there’re even new studies suggesting that sexual problems of older Men are due to low E2 and not low T! I’m a living proof how E2 either makes it or breaks it. I’ve traced all my blood works since 2014 and have established a specific pattern with regards to its level. Guess what? My crappiest times happen to coincide with those periods where my E2 was lowest. I’m willing to share my results for all naysayers out there.
Having said that, balanced T:E2 would make you feel like a boss. E2 sweet spot in my book is anything in the 22-35 pg/mL range.
There’re are so many aromatase inhibitors out there, both natural and Rx. I had to learn the hard way, unfortunately.
Stuff that lower E2 for me are: All Rx aromatase inhibitors (A’dix, Letro, A’sin, etc. no brainer I know), DIM, high dose Zinc, Melatonin (never knew it was this potent), Vitamin A & beta-Carotene (found in Carrots), Vitamins D & K in high doses, Nettle Root, Green tea, Fish Oil in high doses, SAMe, & Cruciferous vegetables. There’re probably other things but these are the ones I had bad experience with.
Remember, having to deal with high E2 is tons better than very low E2. One sure way to raise your E2 is to elevate your TT. However, be extra cautious NOT to raise your TT through lowering E2 since it’s counterproductive. E2 is involved in the HPTA axis feedback loop and having low E2 would signal your brain to release LH to stimulate leydig cells to produce more TT in order to convert it to E2 to elevate its basal level. This mechanism of raising one’s E2 is utterly flawed!! Unfortunately, many of the common protocols use this very same mechanism.
As you said, you need to focus on other means to increase TT such as resistance training, enough sat fats, quality sleep, and through raising Dopamine since T & DE share a direct relationship (Think of it as a two-way street). Obviously I can’t emphasize enough on gut’s health!
DHEA is tricky. What’s your current dose may I ask?
Update:
My previous observation about Mg & Ca balance appears to be much more pivotal than I’d ever thought. I’ve gone through my daily journals over and over to establish a pattern and here’s what I found:
Balanced Mg:Ca ratio is so critical to one’s well being and motivation. It all started when a previous blood work done mid summer 2018 unveiled borderline low Ca level. I didn’t know what to make of it back then so I just assumed it’s nothing to be concerned about and dismissed it. What’s triggered my curiosity, however, is that I consume a lot of whole dairy products and having low Ca raised a red flag for me. I suspected a suboptimal Parathyroid function but this was highly unlikely.
I did more digging and found that Ca & Mg are correlated. I was taking Mg for as long as I can remember without much consideration for Ca. Through out my long battle with PFS, I had always assumed Ca is just about strong bones and skimming through several online forums and even published studies Ca was always envisaged as the ‘evil mineral’ that may be responsible for heart problems, clogged arteries due to calcification, kidney stones formation and even hair loss due to scalp inflammation whereas Mg was mostly manifested as the elixir. So I focused on Mg and dismissed Ca, which led to Ca deficiency.
It turns out Ca is also important for Dopamine synthesis and release.
Take-home message would be to have your Ca level checked and ensure that Ca to Mg ratio is 2:1
Came across this interesting scientific study linking E2 to Dopamine & Mesolimbic Pathway:
"Abstract
The gonadal hormone estradiol modulates mesolimbic dopamine systems in the female rat. This modulatory effect is thought to be responsible for the observed effects of estradiol on motivated behaviors. Dopamine acting in the nucleus accumbens is thought to be important for the attribution of incentive motivational properties to cues that predict reward delivery, while dopamine in the striatum is associated with the expression of repetitive or stereotyped behaviors. Elevated concentrations of estradiol are associated with increased motivation for sex or cues associated with access to a mate, while simultaneously attenuating motivation for food. This shift in motivational salience is important for adaptive choice behavior in the natural environment. Additionally, estradiol’s adaptive effects on motivation can be maladaptive when increasing motivation for non-natural reinforcers, such as drugs of abuse. Here we discuss the effect of estradiol on mesotelencephalic dopamine transmission and subsequent effects on motivated behaviors."
Well, as with most studies out there, it’s done on rats. But it could give a clue and put us in the right direction. It basically says E2 plays a significant role in Dopamine system mainly in its Mesolimbic path. For those who aren’t familiar with Mesolimbic path, it’s the pathway in the brain that’s mostly correlated with reward sensation and pleasure. Most people and media outlets are referring to this specific pathway when ever they bring up Dopamine. It’s also the same pathway that illegal drugs such as Cocaine act upon to induce that proclaimed sense of euphoria. There’re other pathways in which Dopamine can travel through but those are irrelevant to sense of pleasure and reward.
This goes to show how E2 is a game changer in this whole libido-motivation-drive game.
For full study:
Update
I’ve introduced several changes to my day to day routine to find out what really works. In a nutshell, I wanted to isolate the factors that are necessary to sustain a positive feeling. Here are the changes:
-Dropped Tyrosine & L-Dopa. Instead, I’m only taking them as needed.
-Dropped all isolated Vitamins, Minerals & Aminos except low dose Mg (~100mg/d) & low dose Ca (125mg/d) & low dose Taurine (~250mg).
-I’m taking a modestly dosed multi vitamin from Centrum. Most of its RDAs are in the 50-90% DV. I’m relying on diet to get the rest.
-I did deload week from resistance training and focused on Cardio. However, its obvious to me now that resistance training is superior to Cardio in terms of well being and libido.
-I’m skipping dinner as a form of intermittent fasting. It works! Well, at least in my case.
-I’m using a T-Booster that has Tribulus, LJ100, Stinging Nettle, Fadogia agrestis, Fenugreek, ting dose Zinc among other stuff. I feel it’s helping.
-I use a very low dose Taurine (~250mg) when I feel overly irritated or get symtpoms of anxiety. It helps tremendously.
The above changes appear to be working. I mean to check my TT & E2 and will report results. Signing out.
Thank you for the updates brother @doomed80 looking forward to see you results.
Btw when i quit my dopaminergic antidepressant methylphenidate because i did not think that it helped, i was very wrong. I totally lost my libido and crashed very hard. My dick went down, nothing could make him up even cialis or viagra. i almost become suicidal. I started it immediately and returned to normal in a week.
Sorry you had to go through this bro. @DHT Must be such an excruciating experience.
The sweet spot can be found when both Dopamine & Serotonin are balanced. Serotonin would give a sense of calmness & happiness whereas Dopamine would promote motivation, aggression & libido.
Interestingly, both DA & 5-HT are governed by Testosterone & E2. I’m even going further to speculate that low E2 is the main culprit for anxiety, sense of doom, hopelessness, anti-social attitude & even reduced libido experienced by many of this forum members.
I highly encourage you to get your E2 checked ASAP using sensitive assay if possible. Mine had been very low for over 2 years and it took me a whole lot of effort to bring it up to borderline normal. I’m starting to believe that I’m naturally a low converter (T —> E2) because I’m unable to pinpoint a single causative factor for its unusually low level. I dropped everything that affects E2 for now.
My latest TT & E2 results:
TT: 18 nmol/L (8-28), this converts to like 500 ng/dL. I need it up in the 600s-700s range.
E2: 18 pg/mL (still very low). I need to drive up my TT in order to get higher E2. My lacking E2 also explains why I can’t lose fat easily particularly around my waist. There was this one study in which they observed that individuals with low E2 gained fat whereas those with low T lost lean mass (i.e. muscle).
Moreover, raising Dopamine would raise T since they’re proportional to each other and share a direct relationship. So try and raise your T and this should elevate your Dopamine by default. However, Dopamine that travels through brain’s Meslolimbic path (AKA Reward & pleasure path) is governed by E2.
Get well soon!
@doomed80 i shared my results in several topics my profile was very high above the limit total T (790-1300ng/dL) high shbg high Estradiol (45-60) low end free testosterone. That was what confused all the Urologists. My worse Symptoms was ed and sensitivity loss and low libido. I took half arimidex it fixed sensitivity issue almost fixed ed too since first dose ed and libido are improving but sensitivity normalized immediately and preserved. For me killing estrogen recovered me.
@dht You’re lucky bro to have high Estrogen. Your very high T is driving up your E2 and SHBG as well. Interestingly, high & low E2 symptoms are similar in many ways such as ED, low libido, night sweats, emotional and others. However, it’s way easier to control high E2 to have it in the perfect range (i.e. 22-30 pg/mL).
May I ask are you on TRT?
No brother, i never used TrT i was a high T guy since adolescence, i am doing bodybuilding (not heavily just regular workouts) i have never used and steroids or any hormones. I just used damn finasteride and i kept my hair but lost libido… i checked my T levels since my first year on Finasteride it was always high sometimes above the limits and my steroid using friends always got jealous about my levels. I was typing under other topic crashing my estrogen did not killed my libido though i felt it mentally. I got unbelievably tired confused lost distance calculation and short term memory but, libido increased like crazy but, i can confirm that my morning woods and nocturnal boners went soft at the height of crash tough orgasm feeling and relaxation after that hit the roof like i was in my adolescence. There is a spot there right before crash and after it that boners are their height, i am trying to catch that spot.
@DHT Can’t blame them for being jealous lol. You’re blessed with such a very high T bro. Ok so the thing is that dialing in E2 can be quite challenging and tricky. Try and shoot for an E2 in the 22-30 range. This is the perfect range for most Men.
There’re many natural anti-estrogen remedies including Zinc, Vitamins D & K (if you’re deficient), fish oil, beta-carotene, green tea, DIM among others. Keep Anti Aromatase such as Letrozol & Aromasin as a last resort since they’re way too potent and could tank your E2. Having low E2 sucks big time! I can’t stand the anxiety, the achy cracking joints, the forgetfulness and the annoying lethargy and confusion 
Quick update:
I’m getting better in general. I still sometimes crash like every once in a while but it’s nothing like before in terms of severity. The crash episodes also seem to come to an end quicker.
So I ran a complete tests for numerous stuff including CBC, Renal, Liver, Thyroid, Vit. D, B-12, LH, Testosterone, SHBG, E2 and Ferritin. All were fine but there were certain red flags as follows:
I came across this interesting explanation for elevated B-12 and SIBO. There were reported cases that having certain bacterial overgrowth may lead to B-12 over production. So this also points to gut issues. Well, I’ve most of them (bloating, gas, cramps… etc.).
Ferrtin came borderline normal. This is also weird because I had taken iron pills for over 2 months and at one point my level got over 130 but now its back to only 44. This is so bewildering but doctor said I should get back to take iron for a month. This could also explain why I had recurring restless legs syndrome. Have your Ferritin checked fellas! Healthy thyroid and ferritin go hand in hand.
Testosterone: 24 nmol/l (691 ng/dl)
E2: 19 pg/ml
Again, borderline E2 and suboptimal T:E2 ratio. I’m at a complete loss here because I can’t point my finger to one single cause for having such a chronic low E2 level. I’m not taking any inhibitors what so ever! I even looked up Aromatase deficiency syndrome and it’s not applicable on me. I also did some ransacking over my old stuff and found that I had an E2 level of 35 pg/ml back in 2014 despite lower testosterone! What the hell happened? Beats me!
My suspicion is now leading me to suspect gut problems once again. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I stumbled upon this eye-opening study, which states that imbalance in gut microbiome could result in lower E2 level. It goes on to say that there is a certain bacteria that scavenges (not the scientific term) some of the excreted estrogen from the bile so that it could be reabsorbed into the blood stream. Their conclusion is that having an imbalanced gut leads to reduced strain of this bacteria, which in turn results in lower circulating E2.
That’s why I can’t insist enough on gut health being a major milestone to complete recovery. I wish FMT was a reliable solution, I found clinics in the U.K. and Denmark that perform the procedure for IBS patients (In U.S. it’s only done for C. Diff) but I’m questioning the safety and reliability. Some people on Reddit swear by FMT and how it brought them back from the dead.
Is there anyone here who had done FMT by any chance? This should be a hot topic!
Godspeed!
Update 5.9.19:
I’m feeling great in terms of libido, sense of well-being, and positivity. Like I said, yes I do have periods where I experience “crashes” but those are way less intense now and come to an end a lot quicker than say 1-2 years ago.
I’m a firm believer that full recovery comes on gradually and not within a blink of an eye. My debilitating symptoms have developed over several years and it stands to reason that it takes time for body biochemistry to balance out.
Back to business, I’ve revisited my gut function and I can ascertain that there’s a close relationship among my sense of well being/sex drive and the gut. If the gut’s happy then I’m happy too!
So what did I do? In my previous post I said I was suspecting gut dysbiosis and SIBO. Heck my B-12 level came way over the top lab range and I was even considering going the FMT route! Well, I opted to try 2 potent antibiotics (supported by studies) alongside an anti fungus treatment for a week. I also totally eliminated all triggering foods including high FODMAP ones during this same period. Then, I researched a certain Probiotic that’s supported with several studies. Remember my very low E2 issue? Well, it turned out that this one probiotic may actually help restore specific strains of gut microbiome that helps re-circulate some of the discarded estrogens through the bile. I took it for 2 weeks and monitored my condition very carefully. Now, I can feel my gut feels a lot better and so does my mood.
Other supps I’m taking include multivitamin, LJ100, coconut oil, and low dose tyrosine
(~250mg).
I’ll report more stuff later.
Please update us about E2 status. I took crazy amounts of Aromatase inhibitors but unable to crash it to your levels it is fixed on 34-36 band…
Hey @doomed80, can you fill out our survey please. Click the bar graph icon at the top of the screen to begin. 
Hi bro. What aromatase inhibitors are you taking? There’re under and over responders to common AIs. I’m in the latter group. My E2 had been extremely sensitive for the past couple years and there were times when it measured in single digits and the symptoms were horrible!
The AIs that I used before included Aromasin (Rx), Zinc in doses over 30mg, fat soluble vitamins (D, A, K), Fish oil, Proviron (Rx), even Melatonin. TBH, your current level isn’t bad. Most men feel great in the range 22-30 so you are very, very close. But it really depends on your Testosterone level to begin with because it’s all about ratios. I found through experimentation that when I divide my total testosterone into E2 and get a value in the range 15-30 then I usually feel great and my libido is high! Take this with a large grain of salt, though.
I suspect my current E2 is low normal so probably 19 pg/ml more or less. It has been that way for over 2 years now and taking any sort of AI kills it.
Get well soon!
Sure thing bro. I was lazy to do so 