My Long PFS Journey

Member Stories
#176

Update:

Anyone with PFS should take sometime to look into these issues:

  1. Testosterone:Estradiol
  2. Inflammation / Immune response

Sometime back I posted about my Probiotic usage and being the Guinea pig. Well, here’s my latest finding:

Immune system activation causes many symptoms that are similar in nature to PFS. These include anxiety, non-existent libido, depression, disrupted sleep and bad digestion.

I have both scientific studies and personal observation to backup my findings. I was using a certain type of Probiotic which is inflammatory in nature (it raises Histamine) because histsmine is touted to affect hormones production. I’ve noticed what appears to be an eczema developing on my lower legs and I never had this before, like ever. I also had severe mood swings and was getting very cold hands (cold insensitivity), digestive problems, joints ache and headache. These are all symptoms of Serotonin (or lack thereof). So I popped 500mg Vitamin C before bed and the following day I woke up feeling relatively good. It turns out that Vitamin C has potent anti-inflammatory properties and there’re studies about this effect. Failure to address immune system disorders leads to neurodegeneration and that may cause major depression!

So to wrap this up:

  1. Correct T:E2 imbalance. Get a bloodwork to guide you.
  2. Treat any causes for inflammation and immune system activation. In the meantime, try small doses Vitamin C, Ca, Mg, CoQ10, Zinc & Cu as temporary anti-inflammatories. You can get them through diet except CoQ10.

I stopped the Probiotics and will wait until my immune system calms down and observe if my symptoms improve further.

1 Like
#177

IT FUC***G WORK!

I repeated the experiment and took another 500mg Vitamin C and felt amazing within an hour! This can’t be a mere coincidence, can it be?

I’m not saying this is THE CURE to all. I’m just saying that if you’re done fixing your HPTA ( T:E2 & DHT levels) and other chemical imbalances and you’re still not getting better then address any systemic inflammation. Vitamin C only helps with curbing inflammation but doesn’t cure the cause.

Check this excerpt:

"Vitamin C Could Reduce Inflammation. New research has suggested that higher intakes of vitamin C could cut the level of markers for inflammation by an astonishing 45 percent… when the body becomes imbalanced, it loses its ability to produce anti-inflammatory chemicals to counteract that inflammation.”

And this:

"Copious amounts of research have outlined a connection between alterations in immune system function, inflammation status, and MDD. Supporting this connection, peripheral immune activation results in changes in the function and/or expression of many components of 5-HT signaling that are associated with depressive-like phenotypes.”

So it goes something like this:

Triggering factor (e.g. infection, allergen, certain drug, food intolerance, bacteria… bla blal) ------> Immune system hyperactivity -------> inflammation -------> high stress response (High’ish Cortisol, low’ish DHEA, High’ish Progesterone, Low’ish Testosterone, Low’ish E2, Low’ish DHT) -------> adrenal fatigue, joints pain, mood swings, low libido, GI issues, anxiety, brain fog, tiredness… etc etc.

You need to find the triggering factor. In my case, it’s overdosing on this one Probiotic that doesn’t suit me. YOU NEED TO CALM DOWN YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM.

Happy new year!

#178

Update:

I’m trying my best to establish a general understanding on how inflammatory response can be linked with many PFS symptoms. I was doing a lot online reading and searching for studies and experiences and came across this one poster on AnabolicMinds who put it up altogether neatly and nicely while providing necessary supporting evidence.

I’ll quote his post:

"I’ve been researching various studies on pubmed, specifically with an interest in histamine and progesterone.**

Histamine directly promotes an increase in progesterone. Progesterone dirctly promotes an increase in SHBG. This is a self fulfilling function - as SHBG lowers estrogen and testosterone it gives further reign to progesterone and histamine.

High levels of histamine can be created by several factors
(1) dysfunctional immune activity leading to allergies
(2h dehydration - yes, not drinking enough WATER

I am successfully tackling the three ‘partners’ of shbg, progesterone and histamine. I have increased my water intake to 4 litres per day with a drastic reduction in histamine. I am using the natural antihistamine quercetin. A number of studies clearly demonstrate that quercitin effectively inhibits progesterone production and limits estrogen production via aromatase. Quercetin is a natural testosterone booster. I believe it’s properties may have been underestimated in the athletic world. Certainly from reviews on Amazon and iHerb etc, it seems to have excellent effects on reducing sometimes severe allergic reactions.
Currently I’ve been prescribed a unique antihistamine - Ketotifen, a testosterone boosting, immune modulating, h1 and mast cell blocker. It works really well, however, I want to avoid rebound effects of regular use and I’d like to think I can tackle my problem with natural products. I have noted a number of cases of males diagnosed with adrenal fatigue who were able to ‘cure’ their condition with antihistamines. Their ‘burnout’ was created by a hormonal cascade of effects created by high histamine levels.
Progesterone can be a nasty hormone if elevated in males leading to hyperaroused/nervous states. It can consequently deplete cortisol and increase adrenalin - the pounding heart symptom often reported by women on progestin birth control. Progsterone also lowers melatonin, creating insomnia. Histamine does not necessarily have to reveal itself as an external allergic reaction - it can often be internalised to organs like the stomach or gut where it creates havoc with normal processes.
I hope this is useful for folks with unexplained high levels of progesterone, as an avenue to explore and perhaps test with quercetin."

SIMPLY BRILLIANT!

I can relate to everything this dude mentioned above! Double damn! Many of us with overdrive immune system will never feel the same without attacking the issue at the root! This may also explain why many PFSers say they don’t get sick anymore because the immune system is overactive and that causes a surge in histamine. Btw, Testosterone suppresses immune system and vice versa. So by having an overactive immune system we:

  1. Have higher SHBG & Progesterone
  2. Have lower T, DHT & E2
  3. Have symptoms of adrenal fatigue (think CFS)
  4. Issues with gut & digestion
  5. Suffer insomnia
  6. Experience anxiety & mood swings

Mind you there’re other causes for high histamine such as gut dysbiosis in which certain bacterial strains work to produce histamine that DAO in the gut fails to breakdown and thus it’s absorbed into the blood stream causing immune reaction and creation of many hormonal imbalances!

This sketch can help explain different reactions to histamine.

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What to do next?
As the poster said, one should tackle the high histamine first and Quercetin can be used in this case. Other useful weapons are Vitamin C, Mg, Ca, Zn, Cu, Vitamin D, CoQ10 & DRINK PLENTY OF WATER. Meanwhile, the root cause for elevated histamine should be addressed. It could be an allergic reaction to certain food or environmental allergen or other cause.

In my personal case, I think it’s the gut! I used this histamine producing bacterial strains and developed an eczema on my lower leg later. So I’ve placed an order for another Probiotic with antihistamine strains to help balance things out.

If all fails, I’m afraid I’ll have to resort to antibiotics.

3 Likes
#179

Update:

Ok so I’m getting better with the antihistamine/anti-inflammatory cocktail I’m currently on (Quercetin, Vitamin C, Mg, Ca, low dose Zn & Cu from beef liver). My lower leg eczema and achy/clicking joints do seem to be subsiding, but I went to see a dermatologist about it today and she have prescribed a topical Corticosteroid and an antihistamine for 10 days.

While I know that Corticosteroids only mask the symptoms through immune suppression, I’m eager to find out how it might affect my mood, cognition, libido, & erection in the process. I’m sure % of the topical cream will be absorbed systematically and induce effects.

1 Like
#180

Doom, thank you for all your post. I’ve been battling for about 3 years now to recover libido and erections. Both are weak and at times non existent. Your histamine post have me searching for a different angle, I wanted to share that I noticed when I take an antihistamine (ZZZ Quil) I wake up with morning erections. When I do not take it I don’t. I originally thought the cause was I was getting better REM sleep but now think I will attempt to pay closer attention to histamine effects on my body. I’m going to try Quercetin myself but will be watching your post closely for your results. Thanks again for sharing what your doing and your progress.

1 Like
#181

Potentially a very bad idea.

1 Like
#182

I agree with Greek. Any substance shall be thoroughly researched by members before consideration.

I’ve been on 500mg Quercetin ED for 2 weeks now for its purported anti-inflammatory properties. Here are my anecdotal findings:

  1. It does seem to slightly help with reducing inflammation/high histamine symptoms since I’m experiencing less eczema flares.

  2. It makes me feel cold about 20mins post ingestion. This is most likely due to its anti-thyroid effect (induce temporary hypothyroidism). This is bad

  3. Its effect on estrogen/progesterone is not well understood. Though, some studies claim it acts as anti-progesterone. Personally, I think it’s milldly lowering my borderline low E2 since I’m experiencing occasional night sweats, slightly sore joints, increased sensitivity to cold weather & frequent urination.

Again, I advise all members of this forum to practice caution when considering any substance.

That said, there are other “safe” anti-inflammatory alternatives that I mentioned in my previous post. I’m researching Bromelain as a replacement for Quercitin since it’s also purported to lower inflammation.

#183

Thank you both for the advice a quick reply. I’ll hold off

#184

Wise decision. Speaking of which, what histamine intolerance symptoms are you experiencing?

Some of the symptoms include (but not limited to): Nausea, diarrhea, headaches, allergies, food intolerances, eczema, shortness of breath, high pulse, joints pain, mood swings, digestive problems, autoimmune diseases, sinusitis… etc.

I’ve decided to drop Quercetin and experiment with Bromelain and Omega 3. They’re also supposedly helpful. The body normally breaks down histamine via DAO and HNMT enzymes and deficiencies in them may trigger symptoms. Another potential scenario is having too much histamine producing bacterial strains in the gut. I’ve used a Probiotic containing L. Reuteri (supposedly they help raise Testosterone) and that’s triggered it for me. I’m hoping the Probiotic effect will phase out.

Histamine isn’t bad by itself since it serves many vital bodily functions and it is said that it controls LH secretion to produce Testosterone. Too much histamine that body cannot process, however, is another issue altogether.

#185

I’ve noticed that when I take an antihistamine that morning erections return. With out it they are non existent. As far as sides go it is ED, libido and lack of morning erections. I’ve had sides for about three years now.

#186

I’m not really experiencing any of these symptoms…

Some of the symptoms include (but not limited to): Nausea, diarrhea, headaches, allergies, food intolerances, eczema, shortness of breath, high pulse, joints pain, mood swings, digestive problems, autoimmune diseases, sinusitis… etc.

#187

Doomed80… Are you back to losing hair?

#188

That’s great to know. Those symptoms are debilating to say the least! If you see my previous posts you’ll find that I had similar observation regarding morning erections and high histamine. In layman’s terms, when I used pro inflammatory bacterial strains I experienced high histamine symptoms and absent nocturnal/morning erections and lower libido and vice versa. So yes I’d say that hyper inflammatory response (i.e. overactive immune system) plays a role beside hormone levels.

I’ve taken 250mg Bromelain and 1000mg Omega 3 last night and today (in addition to my cocktail) and they seem to ward off high histamine symptoms. It’s way too early to draw conclusion, but yeah I had morning wood today and a decent libido. That said, I’m also doing 30mins treadmill cardio and skipping dinner as a form of intermittent fasting.

#189

My current regimen:

4x resistance training per week
3x treadmill cardio per week
~2500 kcal per day (500-700 calories from fat)
Skipping dinner
Supplements: 80mg Tongkat Ali + 3,000mg DAA + Regular Centrum multivitamin + Omega 3 + 30mg CoQ10 + Coconut oil + ~300mg Vitamin C + 250mg Bromelain

I cycle Testosterone boosters.
Vitamin D level: 45 ng/ml
BF% ~15%

I’ll get a bloodwork done and post results soon. Btw, I started using Cortisone cream for my leg eczema and will see how it effects me.

#190

Good question. Ironically, a girl that I’ve known for years had commented on my increased thinning/receding hair and said that it used to be thicker. Strangely enough, I wasn’t bothered :joy:

So yep my hair isn’t as thick as to used to be a few years ago. I think having higher T:E2 (i.e. higher T & lower E2) for a couple years may be behind it.

#191

Doom, my current T levels are total 404 and free 14.4. The doctors say my free is well in range and that there is no hard line for total (to me TT seems borderline low). In your experience and what you’ve learned do these levels seem normal for a 39 year old male? My only symptoms are sexual sides and the doctors again point to free test and say if it’s normal then testosterone probably isn’t whats causing my symptoms. Truly appreciate anything you can offer.

#193

We are of the same age Man. What a coincidence :slight_smile:

I, too, mainly had issues with sexual issues especially in the arousal/libido department. I agree your total Testosterone is borderline low. Mine hovers around 440 - 500 and I feel it when it goes any lower. I noticed that when ever I manage to elevate my T to be 500 - 600ish and achieve a minimum E2 of ~19 pg/ml, my raging libido and boners would come back full swing.

Your free T is ok’ish, which means your SHBG is likely in a good range, but I feel that raising your T to 500-600ish range would be a game changer for you.

That said, I wish you had your E2 tested. Having high T with low E2 (i.e. < 19) never gave me back my sexuality. Using Clomid at 12.5mg EOD raised my T to high 700s but killed my libido. ANYTHING that lowers E2 while raising T never works for me, as simple as that.

It has to be something that raises both T and Estradiol to a good ratio. I suggest you test the following:
T, E2, SHBG, TSH, Cortisol

You can try 80mg/d Tongkat ali from brand Source Natural & 3000mg/d D-Aspartic Acid from Bulk Supplements for a week and judge how you feel. Combine that with 4x per week resistance training and quality sleep and enough calories (fat & carbs). In the mean time, steer clear from anything that lowers estrogen until you get it tested via sensitive assay.

#194

Update:

125mg Bromelain (containing 150 GDU) and 1000mg Omega 3 seem to be helping with my inflammation. My eczema appears to be resolving and not itchy as before. This is a good sign. However, it could just be that the Probiotic effect is phasing out.

Bromelain is very potent, though. I took 500mg as a first dose and made me very nauseous! I could barely tolerate 125mg/day.

#195

I have been on anti-histamines more than finasteride and they did not helped me. though high dose niacin and fish oil really cured my joint pains and urticaria. I am free from anti-histamines after 17 years.

#197

Dude I’m currently suffering from joints problems and uticaria. I never had these before, like ever! They appeared out of nowhere after I took a round of Probiotics with L. Reuteri bacteria. I read they’re histamine producing strains and this is probably triggering my immune system into hyper mode. I’m trying to revert back to normal.

I didn’t want to use anti-histamine drugs so I opted for bromelain & fish oil. I’m a firm believer now that my gut is part of this whole ordeal. I’m researching FMT and reading about patient stories. I wish I could find a reputable clinic and a super donor to get it done. There was a thread on hairloss talk for a poster claiming hair regrowth ang higher testosterone level from FMT.