My idea for a protocol by increasing androgen signalling

Therapeutic Efforts
#22

Godspeed

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#23

Well, since i crashed from SSRI 4 years ago, i researched a lot, and in my opinion, only AR receptor can trigger a cascade of imbalances and changes at all levels in a body. AR receptor is a receptor not only for DHT, it’s a regulator for a lot of genes and other receptors including neurosteroidal, serotonergic, dopaminergic, glutaminergic patways.

In my opinion, modulation of AR can have a huge impact on human body.

Androgen receptor has been shown to interact with:

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#24

I felt the same when changing doses

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#25

I think this and other protocols can best be tested in rat studies. But first we need to create a rat model of PFS by testing different methods of inducing PFS with finasteride in rats to establish the best method. This will 1) prove PFS exists and is caused by finasteride; 2) establish the most dangerous way to take finasteride; 3) establish a protocol for creating PFS rats. Once PFS rats are reliably created lots of treatment protocols can be tested.

Nobody is doing this and nobody will unless we do it! Why nobody here is paying any attention to this - our only chance of finding a cure - is beyond me.

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#26

Hear hear.

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#27

The way to do it is to start a public fund-raising campaign on the site with the goal of having 100 people donate 500 USD each. The studies will begin only when the number of people reaches 100. That will serve as an incentive for people to participate. Once we have the money, 50k, the rest is easy. We find a university research lab in a low cost destination - for example India, where we can do a series of studies for the money we have raised. Different groups of rats will be given finasteride in various protocols. For example: 1) single dose; 2) long uninterrupted administration then stop; 3) long uninterrupted followed by medium long period off, then restart briefly, then stop. 4). alternating on and off; 5) long uninterrupted followed by a series of on and off. So these are 5 groups. Each group can probably have 50 rats. PFS will be evaluated by administering tests for sexual function (very controversial, I know).

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#28

I’m guessing we’ll be taking what Baylor gives us and going from there.

If you go ahead with it I’ll donate. I already donate to the foundation of course, because raising awareness is important. But for current sufferers, actively working towards a cure is more important.

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#29

What you are suggesting is really interesting. I was thinking about this recently. I have access to a university research lab and had a research position in the past.

You know after 2 years trying everything to cure this syndrome its frustating to see achievements and yet not sustainble. In certain period of times I felt compelety cured at a point that I wonder if this nightmare was even real. I am very sportive and being a doctor I always followed the best lifestyle possible. So before the crash and even now I’m very healthy. I have a very low bodyfat percentage etc. I felt the crash just after quitting finasteride. After what I call a honeymoon interval with a sharp rise in everything mood, libido, muscle mass, everything became dark. My libido, mood, memory, communication skills even the facial fat distribution has been impaired in just 1 month. As I know the fonctionning of hormonal system in the body, I am sure that to some extent it is reversible if we restore the axis. But when each time after reaching a certain degree of recovery I fall again, its discouraging and demonstrates that the main cause has not yet been targeted. The body recover but its like the changes has impaired body presets. As you know some men are more virile than others. And some women more feminine. Our androgen system has been impaired and in some areas show feminin features which is not compatible with basic structures.

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#30

Can you tell me exactly how you were changing doses and how this affects you ? You was better when you were increasing or decreasing doses ?

#31

The Anndrogen signaling pathway has been damaged and its present nearly evey where. Mental manifestation is the result of impaired androgen signals in the brain. Neurosteroids balance is broken. DHT levels is different from androgen pathways. Restoring DHT levels is easy and its not working.

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#32

I know that the body reacts to extremely high androgen signaling as our situation demonstrates it. What I dont know is if it reacts also to the extreme low signaling. If it reacts we will be cured.

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#33

If you’re going to inhibit DHT in this protocol (I’m just looking to take advantage of your knowledge here btw, I definitely don’t know better than you) would you know any method which doesn’t do it through impairing 5 Alpha Reductase? If so, would that also/alternatively be worth doing in the protocol?

Must be said a few folks around here have crashed from anti-androgens, and some got WAY worse doing so. It looks like there’s no uniformity in what works or harms all of us, but that might just mean developing several protocols for several ‘types’ in the end, and researching what ‘type’ of PFS you are becomes essential.

I think people would still attempt it even if there’s an element of risk to it, so I’m glad you’re brave enough to.

Do you have recent bloods too?

I really can’t wait to see your protocol progress. Please please log this in great detail and don’t be discouraged or leave the forum if it works or it doesn’t!

Again, very very best of luck sir.

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#34

I took it every 3/4 days, so after 2 days from takibg the pill i could feel that my testosterone was much higher. More honry, confident, dick size when non-erected, pleasure during orgasm…

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#35

As you know for prostat cancer there are different methods to lower androgens. The continous administration of gnrh agonists inhibits the hpg axis combined with antiandrigens to overcome adrenal production can incude very low level of androgens. Castration is also done for some patients. What is interesting is that in some patients supressing androgens will not help and as their body adjust androgen sensitivity they resist. The tumor androgen signalling become even more bold while on treatement. In these patients a sudden discontinuation of antiandrogen treatments is the key to decrease androgen signaling. When they stop the treatement the tumor regression occurs.

I know you are knowledgeable and its a plaisir to discuss the matter with you sir.

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#36

I want to share something from my experience. When i crashed from SSRI i had very oily skin, acnee, hair was falling out extremelly from the head, but it was a lot and thick on my body. Now 3 months ago i crashed from Ginkgo Biloba and i’m the opposite, my skin is dry, my hair on the body thinned, my hair on the head don’t fall at all. I lost now completly my emotions and sexual drive, before they were something like 10%.
My question is: Why i had hyperandrogenic symptoms , now i have hypoandrogenic symptoms, but my mental and sexual sides, skin numbness and all other symptoms are in the same dark place. After ingestion of ginkgo biloba, i had one day where my genital sensations, erection and orgasm was enhanced. I’m thinking only at the bell curve . Too more or too low, it’s the same outcome, it’s all about balance.

#37

You mean when you crashed from ssri you had hyperandrogenic symptoms ? Oily skin, hair falling with high sexual drive ?
Its not a crash ! You need to explain this in more details with timing etc.

#38

What are you doing to get better?

#39

Sorry, english is not my native language.

Sexual, mental sides, and 100 other symptoms are the same as after first crash 4 years ago. I don’t have emotions, i don’t have any sexual drive, i have skin numbness, frequent urination, genital pain sometimes, brain fog and near all possible symptoms.

But the difference from the first and second crash is skin, hair and muscles.
When i crashed first time i had oily skin, acnee and failing hair.
Now at the second crash i have dry skin, no sebum, and hair is not falling at all.

I want to say that i had some hyperaondrogenic signs, but still had all other possible PFS symptoms.
I mean it’s possible that AR receptor signaling work like a bell curve.
Too high androgen signaling or too low you have the same mental, cognitive and sexual symptoms.

This is an exemple of bell curve, something is working right at the right dose, but if you are going to low or to high, you will get no benefits.

#40

It’s not just possible, it’s demonstrable. When we rebuilt the propeciahelp website I put a quote from a popular science book with the bell curve analogy in the context of PFS on the info on post finasteride syndrome page which puts it in very simple terms.

@morpheuss, have you been posting before under another name? I am surprised to see someone sign up and be using words like “protocol” and suggesting “cure” in less than a day.

Hi guys - on the behalf of the staff I just want to give a bit of context and our opinion this suggestion could well be extremely and irreversibly harmful. After six years of PFS that i did not know was PFS as for those years my phenotypical presentation entailed muscle wasting with exercise and weight loss that could not be reversed, I developed an extreme degree of entirely new effected domains on rechallenge. I crashed two days after and was disabled to the point I had to be looked after by others. I suffered severe cognitive problems, derealisation, anhedonia, anxiety, severe insomnia, night sweats, significant and rapid penile damage (not variable) with genital/prostate/perineal pain that has persisted 24/7 since, loss of sexual function and erectile function, loss of sperm production, problems with my autonomic breathing and sleep apnea in the short sleep I get, bone and teeth pain and many more. To be clear, I had none of these in six years and didnt know this was biologically possible. They onset like a lightening strike after I took it again in ignorance of it causing my (then manageable) health problems.

This topic seems to be a confused interpretation of what @awor set out ten years ago in a paper entitled “the 5ARI withdrawal syndrome” which spelt out in detail a potential mechanism in which we would be dealing with a deregulated AR and consequences including significant depletion of neurosteroids. His work is the sole reason people are saying “AR” a lot across this and other patient websites. He helped set up the first study of PFS patients to confirm differences in AR expression. A significant increase in nuclear AR intensity (2x) between controls and PFS patients with penile damage and pain was recorded in all measured cell lines of prepuce tissue, correlating to severity of symptoms. So, we do already have objective evidence of epigenetic changes in PFS patients, and this has now been suggested by some professors as a plausible driving factor in PFS. @awor was involved with the design of an ongoing study funded by the foundation to hopefully give us more data in this direction. We are currently working on another paper to provide to the scientists who support our work and the scientists in related areas we additionally need looking at this issue.

Please bear in mind it is important to maintain humility with regard to the complexity of this issue; a paragraph is not going to “cure” it. In regards to this idea, there is no specificity here nor a plausible mechanism to what is being discussed beyond the known effect we warn everyone regarding when it comes to readministration of 5aris or antiandrogenic substances. Improving on them is no surprise scientifically or anecdotally: Has anyone tried Saw Palmetto or fin after developing pfs?

Even if there were a rationale here, as @Trump_1776 pointed out finasteride cannot be practically tapered, there cannot be any informed dosing as to an unknown and variable predisposition and site-specific and variable outcome, and as @Invictus pointed out (and @awor did) patterns of superphysiologic androgens (T/DHT) have been tried many times over many years.

So if it’s something you feel like doing, this is our opinion on the matter. This is written out of responsibility to our members as others have suffered after antiandrogenic medicines and substances pursued to therapeutic ends and it’s important this is made clear.

Thanks and take care everyone

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#41

No axolotl I have never been on this forum with any username. it’s the first time I signed up. I was following your posts without signing up. As I said I am not a native english speaker and being a GP its normal that I use medical terms. I can send you my degree and qualifications. Now I’m general surgery resident.
I made it clear that I have never tried this protocol yet and I am not encouraging anyone to do it. I was debating an idea and I wonder why against your forum rules you are adressing me and not the idea.

Androgen receptors have long been studied for prostat cancer . And as our condition does not respond to TRT its clear that the problem is androgen receptor or what its beyond meaning andorgen signaling. Its not your discovery. I know some reasercher who work on prostat cancer and that’s where androgen pathway has been studied better.

I think I made it clear that what I am suggesting is not tapering finasterid itself in first place neither using steroids for recovery.

I said if we desentetize andorgen receptiors by using steroids and then using finasterid to lowering DHT, we can decrease androgen signaling to a point that body reacts. Then We dont need to taper finasterid , we can maintain a steady dose of finasterid while administrating DHT itself to increase the concentration gradually.

Because the crash happenned when finasteride had caused androgen receptor hypersensitivity and the discontinuation of drug has created excessive DHT suddenly. I want to produce the oppostie condition.

I like your forum and I am not here to influence people or whatever you think. Just to share my experience and my ideas.

Peace be with you.

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