My hidden problem

Member Stories
#21

Just an update for me:

I just started my third bottle of Dermacrine Sustain (not Alpha). First month of Sustain I felt some good responses at times but not nearly as consistent or often as I’d hoped. The entire second bottle, though, I felt bottomed out. Got my results back with high E2 levels and decided an aromatase inhibitor (AI) would be my course. I wanted my endo to prescribe me Arimidex as a backup final option, which he didn’t, but in the meantime I had begun Rebound XT, which is a semi-powerful natural AI used by bodybuilders.

Began Sunday night with it along with ZMA tabs – 1 Rebound XT in the morning/afternoon and two at night plus 3 tabs of ZMA, since Estradiol activity is supposedly at it peak during sleeping hours. By Wednesday evening my mood improved dramatically. Libido has made some mild strides, but it’s definitely a start. I’m definitely staying cautious about being on the way to recovery, but I thought some others might like to at least read some positive signs and reports.

#22

Thanks for the update guys, and please continue to keep us updated.

Big Softie, I have read all your reports with much interest. I’m planning on getting both the Sustain Alpha and Diesel Test Hardcore once I get blood tests taken. I’ve also started to taking a multivitamin, fish oil, and working out 3x a week. I hope I can save myself.

#23

Definitely suggest at least the Sustain products (though only after an initial blood sample has been taken for a clear picture of where you are), since its primary function is to boost T levels without doing too much meddling otherwise. After that it may then be a matter of ‘tuning’ at least one of the other levels like it appears to be with me. The guys over at the hypogonadism2 yahoo group who are on Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) have to closely monitor Estradiol (E2) levels and control them, because they are continuously introducing Testoterone into their bodies and its conversion to Estradiol is happening as quickly as it has the materials available to do so. I think for us our T levels are either slowly climbing or get stuck in neutral after quitting fin because some of these other levels were allowed to become predominant. Anyway, thissucks or anyone else, your blood tests will tell you more.

If you haven’t registered with the yahoo group yet, I suggest that you do. And I’ll repeat what Softie said somewhere and insist that you have a wander through some of the bodybuilding forums like anabolicminds, because steroid users are constantly having to monitor and balance T and other hormone levels, and we are suffering from so many of the symptoms and problems that they have to – and more importantly, expect to – deal with if they don’t plan an effective post (steroid)cycle therapy.

#24

I should also add that last night I awoke with my first nocturnal erection in a few months (since that initial, short-lived Sustain boost), and one of only a few in the last year. Everything down there (shaft, etc) looks more normal today than they have in ages. Not completely normal, but certainly midway.

#25

Sorry Softie if I’m railroading this thread a little, but this seems like good place to add a little support of what I was saying about other levels from the yahoo group. The following are a few excerpts I cut and pasted from a thread I started over there about my blood test results. pmgamer18 is one of the mods, who has been very helpful and has personal experience with treatments (although he apparently does not have a comma button on his keyboard, so I sometimes have to read his posts two or three times):

 pmgamer18:
 Your Estradiol is very high in the units we use in the US your at 74    
 pg/ml youshould be below 40 between 10 to 30 for some best at 20.   
 This by it's self will lower your Testosterone your brain can't tell the 
 difference between theTestosterone and Estradiol so if Estradiol is 
 very high your brain thinks it's Testosterone.  I would get on some 
 Arimidex doing .5mgs every otherday then retest in 4 to 6 weeks.  
 Here is a link about this it's about older men but happens to any age.

 [jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174](http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174)

 You just might luck out and find your Testosterone levels will come 
 back up. Bottom line you need to find out why your levels are low 
 before going on T meds.


 Another poster:
 I have a question. Without proper E2 management, could TRT do more 
 harm thangood? Remember when I was taking those monthly shots? A 
 large amount of testosterone was introduced into my body which was 
 later subjected to aromatase that later converted into E2 doing me as 
 much harm as good.

 I know there's been talk in the forum on the subject but I'm beginning 
 to believe that yes, the two are equally important. With TRT should 
 come E2 management as well. I know it is necessary but I hadn't 
 considered placing as much emphasis on it until recently. When we 
 speak of TRT we should also speak of E2 management.

 pmgamer18:
 Yes E2 is just as much needed in testing and treatment as T even now 
 in the first round of tests Dr. need to check E2 because if it's high it   
 shuts down the Pituitary from sending LH to the testis to make T and 
 just getting the E2 down the testis make T again.   So if a Dr. tests a  
 man and only tests his TT, FT, LH and FSH not testing E2.  The mans 
 levels can come back low on TT,FT,LH and FSH and the Dr. would think 
 it's a Pituitary problem but it can be his E2 is to high.  The brain can't 
 tell the difference between E2 and T so when it sees E2 high it thinks 
 it's T and stops sending the LH message to the Testis to make more 
 Testosterone.

Anyway, since even Dermacrine Sustain can stimulate Testosterone production, the implications are the same: more T = more E2 for many people. I think, therefore, like these guys, that E2 is an absolutely vital part of any test, along with things like Total and Free T. I emphasize it more frantically, though, because it might be one of the least understood and most overlooked for our conditions, which means you might have to be really insistent with docs about even getting it tested. If they refuse to test it then go elsewhere.

#26

Hey Quint, your contributions are well appreciated. If you look at my blood tests from earlier you can see that my Estradiol levels weren’t really too high to begin with (maybe just a small, small bit too high). I think for me it was more of a high progesterone level which was probably able to be corrected by boosting up T production. Mew has said earlier that one should be careful about jumping on a bandwagon for a certain treatment but I recommend sustain because it pretty much has no side effects whatsoever, and I don’t think it’s as strong as some other estrogen inhibiting things because they make a point that it doesn’t reduce estrogen by too much (which, believe it or not can be a problem for some men). I’ve been thinking of starting to take garlic and ZMA just to try to give me a bit more of a boost in T, and I hear it’s good for your health anyways.

As for Diesel Test Hardcore, this is another natural supplement product with all herbs and stuff in it so I’m pretty sure it doesn’t have any side effects either. The stuff is also supposed to optimize cortisol, DHT, and prolactin levels so I would imagine it helps you in ways that Sustain doesn’t. As much as we worry about DHT because of the fact that we took finasteride, I think it still needs to be controlled, possibly more than ever for some people (like myself) because of the rebound after quitting fin (my DHT levels were off the charts). The same goes for Reset AD which helps optimize the adrenal glands.

I think it is definitely important to remember that a lot of us on here are pretty different even if we experience the same things and we have a wide assortment of different hormonal imbalances. So it is definitely important to get yourself tested out and see where the problem lies, and then try throwing some natural supplements at the problem for a couple months before resorting to potentially toxic prescription drugs.

#27

Yeah, I’m definitely interested in lowering my DHT eventually since mine was also well above the range limit, although it was not a priority. I can’t even say that I have a real understanding of how DHT functions at high or low levels. The estradiol was my first concern, and I think I’ve done that (or else there’s a major coincidence taking place with my hormones).

I’m not able to return the two bottles of Diesel Test 2040 because I’ll be out of country, but I did order one of the Hardcore version, so I’m looking forward to that (and it should help with DHT), plus my two bottles of Sustain Alpha arrived today(!). Anxious to try it out.

#28

Just make sure you get in a decent amount of exercise to go along with the diesel 2040, I’m no expert on creatine but I’m thinking you might not want to let it build up in your blood and put it to work on your muscles.

Man the more I’m feeling normal the more I’m starting to care about how my hair looks again, still though the lesson learned has been important and I do see that there are more important things in life.

#29

Hi big softie,
i’ve read your post and i am going to try both sustain alpha and diesel test hardcore (i want follow your winner protocol!)…
but… i’ve a question… the component of the sustain are all well-balancet in order to boost testosterone production and at the same time fight the conversion of T in E2 and others. if i take also the diesel test (at the same time of the sustain) i discombobulate the counterbalance of the components? in other words, if i take two product that boots testosterone i risk to cause an excessive conversion?
isn’t sustain well-balanced by itself? isn’t dangerous match sustain with another product (diesel test) that in other ways does the same task (raise t)?

i hope you have understand me even if my english is bad!
thank you…

#30

Hey sorry I didn’t get to reply earlier, way.

Well to be completely honest, I haven’t had the chance to take diesel test just yet, but I will be taking it in combination with this new sustain alpha they got out. I did take paravol though. Paravol basically has the same ingredients, but a lot less of it. When I doubled the dose of paravol and took dermacrine sustain at the same time, I felt that the paravol gave me a much-needed boost in libido. You also must remember that these are supplements and not actual pharmaceutical chemicals, because of this fact they generally take a pretty long time to even do anything noticeable, I’m pretty sure you will become very horny for a while before you come to a point where your testicles are exhausted (generally this happens in bodybuilders who have exceeded their genetic peak so their testicles can’t make testosterone anymore since the demand for it has exhausted it) . Not only that but I believe the two products work within different mechanisms. Diesel test claims to control prolactin and cortisol levels but sustain does not. A lot of these herbs are also considered to be as safe as food is, especially maca I believe. Diesel Test also contains things like DIM which are supposed to be an aromatase inhibitor and overall estrogen eliminator. Sustain does not have this sort of function, it acts mainly as a SERM sort of thing. 6-OXO is also an aromatase inhibitor and a “designer supplement” which, much like a drug is a synthetic chemical active at a pretty low dose, for this reason I generally don’t recommend it and I think it’s probably too harsh. Diesel Test is all-natural herbal crap, it is gentle and side effect free, yet effective. You may also want to try out the toco-8 vitamin E antioxidant stuff that primordial performance just began selling, it’s supposed to clear up your arteries, help boost T levels in conjunction with sustain, and ironically it is also claimed to stop hair loss and have skin benefits. You just might find yourself saying “I am a Golden God” one day…

You also mentioned conversion, which I believe you are referring to the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. These products are made specifically to combat that sort of thing, so you shouldn’t have anything to worry about.

Good Luck!!!

#31

I just started sustain alpha and toco-8 yesterday. These products look like they do exactly what we need them to. Stimulate the pituitary to raise LH and FSH therefore making your nuts pump out more T.

The question is… does it actually do it?

I sure as hell hope so. I’ll keep you guys posted on my experience.

#32

Softie, or jonny,

Where did you order the Sustain, Diesel Test, and toco-8 ?

Also, jonny, why are you taking the toco-8?

Peace,
Boston :unamused:

#33

You can get sustain alpha and toco-8 at primordial performance’s website at www.nutraplanet.com for purchases of sustain alpha and diesel test, just because of the fact that it is cheaper. Also, the following is a link to a few coupon codes for nutraplanet, but only if you happen to be buying more than 100 dollars worth of stuff from there which I don’t think many of you will.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/28940-nutraplanet-coupon-codes.html

As for the reason why I’ve ordered toco-8, the reason is that I’ve just read many good things about tocotrienols. The stuff legitimately seems to be able to reverse aging of the skin. The supplement claims to raise T levels, clear up your arteries, AND stop hair loss and grow back some hair. I am also at a point where my hair loss is at a critical point that no one can notice it yet. I still have enough hair that 15 year old girls can have crushes on me (not that I condone acting out on such circumstances haha). And let’s be totally honest, whats a libido going to do for you if you can’t get yourself a hot piece of ass? It doesn’t take a genius to know girls like guys with hair better, at least when you’re only 20 years old like me (I could imagine an older balding lawyer/doctor type getting his game on at a ritzy martini bar or something). The stuff also seems really easy to use as I can just mix it in with a protein shake (I’ve been having quite a few of these as I’m really getting into working out and fitness and such).

Well there you have it.

#34

Simple…

Toco 8 is used to promote the production of LH and FSH while sustain is used to get the pituitary to secrete it. They go hand in hand. If your LH and FSH are low then you want to get the toco 8 as well.

I have to say… 4 days into it and im starting to feel something going on down there. Not sure if its good or bad yet. I’ll report back in another week or so. Thats when I should really know if its doing anything.

#35

Guys, what about this 6-OXO shit from Ergopharm ?
bodybuilding.com/store/ergo/6oxo.html

I was just looking around and found that link. It looks similar to what you guys are suggesting. Is this similar to toco-8 maybe…? Thanks

#36

No, I mentioned earlier that 6-oxo is something made by chemists much like a drug, toco-8 is a vitamin E supplement extracted from fruits in malaysia or something, more specifically the tocotrienols which are supposedly lacking in western diets. I’ve been trying it for like 2 or 3 days so I guess it’s too early if it’s good for anything, it would probably be harder to tell anyways because of the other stuff I’m taking plus the fact I really don’t have an ED issue anymore.

I’ve seriously heard of side effects from people taking 6-oxo so it might not be a good idea.

Most of the stuff I recommend are natural extracts from herbal plants, and are not synthetic chemicals. The arginine in diesel test may perhaps be a synthetically produced chemical though. It is also arginine hydrochloride and Arginine Pyroglutamate which is not the average old l-arginine you can buy at GNC. These versions have better absorption and bio-availability. It is some strong stuff, and if you read the label it says to take a maximum of 3 pills a day for the first 3 days of taking it so your body can get used of it, I think exhaustion is a factor in many of us and I have heard others say (and I’ve felt like this too) that they feel exhausted after taking something like tribulus. That’s why I would also recommend reset AD which contains pregnenolone which can take the edge and helps with cortisol (which does inhibit T production). Speaking of cortisol I am also thinking of trying out phosphatidenylserine (I think thats what its called) which is reputed to be effective.

Also if you are going to be taking diesel test you have to drink lots of water, don’t forget that.

#37

a lot of water? why? :astonished:

#38

Big softie, is diesel a kind of creatine? I don’t have this product at my local stores, but I would like to find something similar.

#39

So i’ve been on Sustain Alpha and Toco 8 for 2 week and have seen some improvement.

-Testicles have filled out slightly (more noticeable on the right)
-Erections seem a little more complete especially before orgasm
-Semen is less watery
-Had morning wood twice since starting

These are very slight improvements but i’ll take what I can get. Hopefully they will continue throughout the 4 week cycle. I’ll let you know

#40

Thanks jonny and please do keep us updated. I plan to start on this regimen shortly.