My Bloodwork pre/post Clomid **Labs after 3months of treatment @ bottom**

Member Stories Lab Tests
#70

I think that all the theories need to be tested and put up to scrutiny, and it’s good that we have people pushing the envelope. We definitely should not be pissing on any one doctors’ theory/approach or patient’s protocol. Until one of us reports back with a sustained recovery and clear protocol, we can’t rule out anything. In fact, it’s great if each one of these doctors has a significant pool of us.

As far as speculating on why some people (myself) can tolerate the drug longer than others (and there WERE gradual signs that were ignored), well everyone is different. Mariano believes that there are different predisposing pathophysiologies in each individual, that the body does much to compensate for the signaling changes that occur with the drug, but for a subset of the general population, the body simply cannot adjust, everything falls apart. Perhaps you thought you were in perfect health, but perhaps you were a young stud who drank excessively, ate like shit, had existing thyroid problems, or was about to have them. Unfortunately, the bottle of Fin does not come with a clear warning: Get a complete hormonal analysis before taking this stupid pill. Test your thyroid, because this shit will definitely further screw it up. You really shouldn’t be eating the dollar menu at McDonalds. Do you really even need the few hairs this drug will save? Grow a goatee and shave your head.

Personally, I feel that most of the treatments that people undergo or self-experiment with are the very band-aids that you mention: everything from anti-axiety meds your regular physician will prescribe to antibiotics to PDE5 inhibitors to clomiphine, arimedex, etc, etc. I think you can fix the system temporarily by upping one level, but there’s a whole chain reaction of things that happen, and the end result may be another type of imbalance. The deeper you can dig, systemically, to the root causes, to the foundation of the whole matter, the more likely you’ll be able to re-build. Somebody wrote on this board that some of the particular drugs and treatments on here were not necessarily wrong, but because of the high nature of individual stories, we’ll never know if a certain thyroid medication or TRT protocol WAS the right thing, because it wasn’t necessarily executed to the precise exacting degree for that individual.

Finally, as far as getting labs involved…it’s simple…as soon as this thing gets WIDELY publicized and there’s a buck to be made off finding the “cure,” all sorts of money, grants, etc. will surface, and a bunch of poor men will be subjected to Finasteride in an experimental group.

#71

To clarify, your rt3 levels are too high, your ratio of t3 to rt3 is too low. Is that what you meant?

#72

Probably, lol. I’m still wrapping my head around this stuff. this is why I hesitate to attempt to even paraphrase what I think my doc said and have it put under scrutiny. But I do want people to know there are options out there, different approaches, and I don’t wait until I’m healed to form an opinion on the doctor or attempt to report back some of the experience. I would hope if someone’s impressed with another doc that we start hearing about it before the end of treatment.

Thanks for the clarification, MartinM

#73

So…at the risk of sounding completely stupid…can this type of thyroid issue correlate to ED?

#74

yes

#75

to further clarify/respond:

I don’t believe this is a fair, complete, or accurate summary of his position. But the scans you suggest are interesting ideas.

Who says that symptoms didn’t creep up on people? I know that I wrote off the slight degradation of sexual performance, even stopping and re-starting taking the pill after a couple of years on it. I wasn’t in the habit of over-analyzing my penis until things completely crashed and burned. And for those that the drug affected more immediately and dramatically–well, they’re different people, right? Don’t we all suffer to a different degree? As far as seeing steady improvement…well…waiting…what can I say?

Why should it? Where is it written that it should? If you give a guy on his deathbed finasteride, he’d probably tolerate it worse than a “perfectly” healthy 20 year old. I’m not claiming penile tissue death, per se. But I am taking fish oil, among other things, to repair brain cells. One of my symptoms was short term memory loss, name recollection. I’m being treated for all my symptoms, the doctor knowing that finasteride crashed my system, but treating all present, persistent things I’m complaining about.

Stopping taking a powerful drug such as Finasteride, clearly has consequences, the system goes haywire. I hit rock bottom myself, well after quitting the drug, although the drug was not the only variable in my health profile/lifestyle. There was no claim that specifically brain damage (whatever that means) is responsible for everything, only that the challenge in treatment and reversal of all symptoms is combating the physical damage to cells, the atrophy, getting stem cells to regenerate.

I don’t know why this would be entirely true, but for me, Clomid therapy DID give me a boost of energy, DID eliminate hives that were breaking out in my genital region, buttocks, DID eliminate dry patches of skin on my shins and feet. And when I was at super-high levels of T, my nocturnals and morning/pre-fully waking up wood were much stronger, I felt like I was almost there, my morning fantasies were producing results, but I couldn’t replicate that in a fully awake state. Now, I’m completely starting over, no longer taking Clomid or Testim or Arimidex. I’m trying to find my natural baseline and go from there.

Again, every single case is different. Some people have multiple physical issues, peyronies disease, scar tissue, blocked penile arteries (genetic? injury-related? fin-induced?? not worth treating until hormonal/system is recovered?), some people have a littany of side effects, some have just a few side effects, including the ED. Case in point: I went to Dr. Mariano with a friend from this website. Same day, back to back appointments. He had a far shorter list of symptoms, and his program was different than mine. We were both, btw, operated on, just months apart.

I hope the AR angle is fully pursued, it’s fascinating, and nobody here can afford to be dogmatic about a theory. Let them all be tested. I sincerely hope that we all recover, whatever the solution turns out to be, then go to Vegas and celebrate, lol.

#76

You make a lot of good points man, it’s true every case is different. In all physical respects i am fine but sexually i am a wreck, whilst there are people on here with no ED whatsoever, it’s good therefore that Dr Mariano is taking an individual approach.

Something i wanted to ask you was did you feel that your surgery for the blocked artery has made an improvement in your situation? I know you said Dr G was not going to operate on any more finasteride blockages. The reason i ask is i want to go and get checked by a urologist for this type of complication myself.

#77

How long are you off the drug?

It took me 8 months before i got penile pain and reduction to girth/tissue change…

#78

Thanks man. Ya know, ya just have to have faith in somebody, invest in a process, see it through, or else you’ll never have any hope, never know what treatment did what. I was a big proponent of having the mechanical aspect checked out, and Dr. G’s practice in general (and I still am). And I’m raving about my impression of Dr. Mariano’s knowledge. But before these two docs, all the other guys had NO clue. Not the regular physician, not the urologist, not the endocrinologist, who I wanted to punch in the face, quite frankly.

Seems like anytime I mention that there may be pre-disposing factors, root causes, mechanical causality, that looking beyond androgens, is at least part of the equation, that gets misinterpreted as me somehow absolving Finasteride, or Merck, or the misleading sales reps, or irresponsible docs who prescribe it, the FDA, big pharma, all the institutions and accepted practices that get a drug like this into our systems. HELL NO! I’m just saying, we are where we are. While Finasteride is the common denominator in our stories, while we share many similar symptoms, we are but a subset of the population at large, and a subset of the finasteride-taking population. ED exists outside this circle and is multi-faceted in nature. Thyroid issues, adrenal issues, genetic issues, all exist outside this circle. And they exist within this circle. If you go down the checklist of your symptoms, now that Finasteride is out of your system, and no doubt f’d up your DHT, your Progesterone, your XYZ…what are you experiencing? (I mean, everyone out there). Does it not make sense to treat the body as a whole, to focus on your immune system, vitamins, rule out things, etc, etc? Memory loss? Ok, that can be explained by a, b, c, d…insomnia? ok…one by one by one. Some or many of your symptoms may be direct A to B finasteride-caused issues, some may have been a result of the progression of other issues, some worsened by Fin, or the ability for your system to compensate lessened by the use of Fin.

Having said the above, NOPE! I don’t think the surgery improved anything (or at least, I don’t think I’d see the benefit of the repaired blood flow until the systemic issue is resolved). I think, now, in retrospect, the brief week-long recovery I felt was a temporary hormonal/system adjustment reflected in my crazy labs at the time (high T, low E, high TSH) and all the things that weren’t tested at the time. Some other systems were compensating. I think what I experienced is akin to what some people report on brief cycles of experimental creams or HCG, etc, etc. Unsustainable. (Unless you figure out the exact way to cycle something).

Which leads to many questions:
-was the surgery necessary? (I willingly submitted to it to see if that was the magic bullet)
-given that most fin patients who have their anatomy examined find that there is insufficient arterial blood flow, is this just a common genetic makeup? that wouldn’t have necessarily played a role in young age were it not for finasteride?
-or is it a by-product of finasteride?
-do both the plumbing and hormonal side need to be repaired, then?

Dr. G. doesn’t seem to have answers at this point for Finasteride, but I’ve personally spoken with a long list of people (and met one person) who had their ED resolved because of the artery issue/surgery (but no finasteride use). And an arterial blockage is but one of many physical things that can be the matter. I don’t know that many of the other docs out there who purport to have an exact answer (right or wrong), I think they’re a bit stumped, and may have leading theories, and are willing to experiment with treatments. Thus, for me, at this time, pursuing treatment at root levels with a doctor who treats systemic erectile dysfunction, acknowledges the detrimental effects of finasteride, but explains the prolonged side effects as a manifestation of a multitude of predisposing factors, and claims to be able to reverse sexual disfunction (finasteride and non-finasteride related–it’s not the only med out there that does this shit), is the most hopeful, sensical route. I’ve tried T supplementation, I’ve had a surgery, I’ve stuck my dick with needles to have sex. This is the next step for me.

I can wholeheartedly recommend Dr. G. for a thorough anatomical analysis and diagnosis. Would urge you to be measured in pursuing surgical options, depending on the particular case. I can wholeheartedly attest to the knowledge that Dr. Mariano has—I only hope he’s 100% right and that I’m not too far gone; based on my labs, I bluntly asked him to give me a realistic prognosis, an honest take, and he sounded positive that “prognosis is good” whereas he was more guarded in my initial visit.

#79

These posts made me realize that I haven’t (knock on wood) experienced testicular pain in a while. I think this was a Clomid/Testim-related thing. I complained about it to Dr. G., but all he ever found was a cyst in my right testicle (which an earlier urologist had reported), nothing to worry about said both. The pain was from deep within, disconcerting, and not acute, but not faint either. Hard to describe.

Although Clomid is oft-prescribed, and considered safe, arimidex the same, there ARE side effects. And Mariano told me that Clomid blocks estrogens (not just the one test a lot of us get), so that’s not really great in and of itself. I’d decided to wean myself off the meds before seeing Mariano, but he endorsed seeing where my natural baseline was.

Mentioned that eventually, we’ll decide if supplementation is necessary, and that HCG was an option, that ideally T would be 600+ for best health (not the 300 threshold that endocrinologists treat at)

#80

Colin i have been off nearly three years, i’d say my condition has “stabilized” at this point.

Xhorndog, i’ve been giving some thought to what you have said and i think it is time that i sought out a doctor to help me. So after the holidays (I’ll be away visiting my family) I am going to see an Australian doctor that was recommended to me by Dr. Crisler.

Also, i came across an article that i thought you might be interested in, and possibly Dr. Mariano aswell. It’s about using stem cells to repair damaged prostates, in fact they grew an entire mouse prostate from a single stem cell. Obviously this is some way off from being used clinically, but gives hope that if, as Dr Mariano believes, tissue damage is the cause, then all is not lost by a long shot.

In mice, the researchers were able to make individual prostate stem cells grow into new prostates. The same kind of cells can be found in humans…The identification of single cells capable of generating an entire organ, they note, “has important implications for tissue repair and regrowth”…CD117 prostate stem cells can generate functional, secretion-producing prostates when transplanted," Gao and colleagues report.

webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20081022/prostate-grown-from-adult-stem-cell

#81

Good luck, brother!

To clarify: Mariano’s basic viewpoint is that we suffer from chronic, systemic inflammation, chronic positive feedback loops that need to be broken, poor fundamental nutrition, neurotransmitter signaling problems, etc… And that each patient’s profile is different and needs to be treated as such. He treats underlying root causes of symptoms, understanding that Finasteride caused an overload to the system, but believing that Finasteride is not the only thing capable of crashing the system. Although I’ve convinced my brother and father to get off finasteride and proscar (5mg), respectively, they suffered no apparent side effects. It’s unclear if they would have, and why chance it, of course.

Point is, everyone tolerates it differently, some bodies adjust/compensate for the signaling changes that finasteride induces, for others, it’s the kiss of death…it lowers progesterone, among many other things, the body’s anti-inflammatory response, it causes a cascade of chain reactions. Despite the most basic common denominator on this forum being finasteride use and sexual dysfunction, low ejaculate volume, “brain fog”, etc., you’d be hard pressed to find 2 people with EXACTLY the same profile. That is, if you open up the bloodwork panel, and include all vitamins, 3adiolG, all hormones, etc, no 2 people would look the same, and no 2 people suffer from precisely the same list of symptoms. Thus, you might feel better by taking something that ups your Dopamine, that might have a temporary positive chain reaction, but it might not have a lasting effect either, if the root problem is not discovered and treated. One-size-fits-all treatment (upping Testosterone, for example), makes no sense to me, when there are SO many measurable levels of health to explore, many checkboxes to go down. And yeah, Testosterone, DHT and all that jazz are part of it, but doesn’t it make sense tweak all that you can via nutrition FIRST, before further supplementing hormones, powerful meds? Make the body as strong as you can (by whatever process you view credible), and then build from there?

I come and go from this board, and I’ve been reading a lot of threads the last couple of days—seems like “Nutrition” gets poo-poo’d a lot. As if nutrition is not a valid scientific position. I’m NOT of a medical background, I have no scientific background, I cannot explain a lot of the technical aspects that some rather brilliant minds on here discuss. But I’ve read enough convincing, well-researched books that document the decline of our health. And the reason? NUTRITION!!! Just a few generations ago, my family had 90 year olds. Not so, more recently. When people at whole foods, native, ethnic diets gleaned from years of natural selection, when they prepared foods in their traditional manner, they had great immunity, strong systems, far less decay. I think the definition of “eating healthy” is very screwed up, that even when we attempt to eat healthy, we are mislead by the health industry, by the silly ever-changing government-issued food pyramids, the FDA, the Heart Foundations who sell out to companies looking for their sticker of approval, the food industry, the Nutrition industry, advertising, etc.

I submit once more this book: Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston Price. It’s the most dry/boring and fascinating book on nutrition I’ve ever read. The author traveled the world in the 30’s searching for indigenous populations of great health, those untouched by civilization, and monitored the effects on those that had ventured out. What he found, was astounding! Because of the time period of his travel, he was able to still find these untouched populations, and also photograph them. Those who ate their native, unprocessed diet, whether it was eskimos eating fish or swiss eating whole raw milk cheese or africans eating steer, blood and milk, he found that they were immune to dental decay, that their bone structures/facial features formed better, that they were immune to disease, that they lived longer. As soon as members of those societies traded their ways for sugars, white flour, canned goods, etc, they would get cavities, compromise their health, etc, etc. This is but a brief summary of the concept, but I believe the importance of nutrition is very misunderstood in general, and downplayed on this board. You should see these pictures! There is one striking photo of two brothers who had different diets–one is good looking, has all his teeth, the other looks like he was beaten with an ugly stick, and is missing many of his teeth. Generation to generation, the effects of the changed diets is stunning and obvious. This is despite wide-ranging diets. The common denominator, was found to be transport/absorption of fat-soluble vitamins…those found in whole milk, whole/raw cheese, cultured foods, meats, etc. Things that are black-listed today. Pre-natal special diets, the nutrition of the conceiving parents. What’s the point in all my rambling? We have compromised systems, many symptoms, and they point to root problems of nutrition and systemic well-being. I do not believe we can overcome a chronic illness with bandaid solutions or neglecting seriously addressing true nutrition, we’re talking a far bigger panel of testing than androgens. Oh yeah, one more example. Take bread. You’d be hard pressed to find a TRULY whole wheat bread product these days that didn’t have nutrition robbed from it and then re-injected (fortified) with b-vitamins, etc. Bread should only have whole wheat flour, water, yeast, I think? But most bread products on the market have 20 different bullshit things in it. Way back when, bread was nutritious! Now, it’s an inflammatory product.

Mariobros, the previous rant was not directed towards you, buddy. Thanks for the link to this study, I do find it quite interesting. As, btw, I find the epigenetics link, procaine therapy, and all the science on this board. Again, I’m not gonna knock anyone’s research or experimentation into any angle. I do feel as though the inflammation angle, the nutrition angle is give short shrift. Very unfairly so.

#82

Hey Xorndog what up man i lost your email its B. Hows the supplement regiment treating you. I’m back to my old routine things are still pretty good hear, i think that my mental game is back to lie 80%, which is more that workable. Back to dating regular girls :wink: :wink: lol . whats ur current situation like

#83

I lifted this from a “sexual exhaustion” forum (recover.forumup.org)

Another precise and clear informative post by Dr Mariano on how and what
neuros/hormones causes depression :

Originally Posted by chip douglas

Q.
Hi Marianco,

In his last book titled : ‘‘Younger you’’, Dr. Eric Braverman pathmed.com/ writes that Serotonin deficiency will often lead to depression and and as a result lead to other health issues such as :

Accelerated calcification
Lower sex drive, triggering andropause and menopause
Lowering of Testosterone leading to andropause
Lower estrogen, progesterone
Weaken the immune system
Accelerate skin aging

A. By Dr Mariano

This is one of several possible pathways. But it is too vague - the links are not clearly made. The problem is that there is no explanation as to why this all occurs - for example, what pathways are involved.

Looking at things from my point of view - that the mind is a fluid circuit involving multiple chemical messengers and multiple possible metabolic cascades/pathways:

If one specifically kills off serotonin-producing neurons - for example, by using Ecstasy or Fenfluramine (part of the FenPhen tablet that is now off the market) - then one can envison one possible cascade (out of many):

  1. A serotonin deficit leads to a reduction in thyroid hormone production (which depends on serotonin, one of many cofactors).
  2. A serotonin deficit also leads to loss of control over norepinephrine production (since serotonin neurons help reduce norepinephrine production from norepinephrine neurons) - leading to an increase in norepinephrine production.
  3. The reduction in thyroid hormone production leads to a reduction in steroid hormone production from the testes - particularly a reduction in testosterone production, then estrogen production.
  4. The increase in norepinephrine production leads to an increase in ACTH production, which leads to an increase in adrenal cortex hormone production.
  5. Over time the chronic increase in norepinephrine production leads to adrenal fatigue, and reduced adrenal cortex hormone production.
  6. Adrenal fatigue leads to a reduction in progesterone, DHEA, Cortisol, Pregnenolone, Aldosterone, testosterone, estrogen production.
  7. Adrenal fatigue, lower thyroid hormone levels, lower testosterone levels leads to even higher norepinephrine production.
  8. Lower thyroid and adrenal hormone production leads to an increase in inflammatory versus anti-inflammatory signals on the immune system, leading to an increase in inflammatory responses.
  9. The increase in inflammatory responses leads to the development of atherosclerosis - and calcification - of the arteries.
  10. The increase in inflammatory responses versus antiinflammatory responses leads to weakening of the immune system - inflammation, for example, in barrier cells such as the skin, allows pathogenic bacteria and viruses an easier entry into the body. Inflammation precedes infections and various diseases.
  11. The reduction in thyroid, DHEA, testosterone and the general increase in inflammatory signals leads to a reduction in IGF-1 production from growth hormone in the liver.
  12. The reduced production of estrogens, IGF-1, and thyroid hormone leads to an increase aging of the skin.
  13. Lower thyroid hormone can lead to lower serotonin, lower dopamine, lower GABA production, and a further increase in norepinephrine production.
  14. Low thyroid, testosterone, GABA, dopamine, adrenal hormone production, and higher norepinephrine production can lead to a reduction in sex drive.

I do not necessarily agree with the notion that lowering sex drive triggers andropause or menopause, or that lowering testosterone leads to andropause. These are overgeneralizations.

Andropause is an age-related phenomenon - due to age-related decline in the pituitary’s ability to make LH or due to age-related decline in the testes’ ability to produce testosterone.

Andropause is not necessarily related to a serotonin deficit - since a serotonin deficit can occur at any age, be present due to genetics (thus one is born serotonin deficient), or be induced due to drug abuse or medication adverse effects, etc. If Andropause is specifically due to a serotonin deficit, this would lead to the nonsensical scenario of a male newborn with born with a serotonin deficit being diagnosed with andropause.

Similarly, menopause is an age-related phenomenon, not necessarily related to a serotonin deficit. Rather is is related to the end of the ovaries’ ability to produce eggs. Women are born with a limited number of eggs. If the last egg is ovulated or the egg-shell surrounded the woman’s eggs become so fibrous over time that the egg cannot get out, then menopause starts.

Also, the pathway delineated above is just one of several possible scenarios. Thus any given person may take a different path with a different outcome.

For example, if a serotonin deficit occurs, then dopamine production is unleashed since serotonin production leads to a reduction in dopamine production from dopamine producing cells. Serotonin and Dopamine are joined at the hip in production.

The increase in dopamine may then lead to an increase in testosterone production, an increase in sex drive, etc. An increase in testosterone production may then increase thyroid hormone production (though it can also reduce it in some men). The end-point may then be very different or is opposite to what was previously described.

Lower serotonin may lead to depressed mood, but then it can also lead to a non-depressed mood depending on how high dopamine and it’s metabolic cascades go. Lower serotonin may then alternatively lead to violent behavior in some people (e.g. in XYY chromasome disease, the men have lower serotonin levels and tend to be more violent).

Given the possible pathways involved, it would then be up to the physician treating the patient to try to see which pathways the patient may be going through. This allows the physician to then see where the pathophysiology of illness is, then custom design a treatment to address that particular patient’s situation. One has to dance with the patient’s responses. To a physician, this is like playing jazz. The ability to improvise is the mark of a good physician.

#84

Just wanted to share some of Dr. Mariano’s own words, own posts on the matter of ED. Very good reads:

forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/adrenal-fatigue-nervous-system-134269479.html

musclechatroom.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-3864.html

forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/high-norepinepherine-erectile-dysfunction-134249500.html

definitivemind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639

definitivemind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201&highlight=masturbation

#85

Very informational. Since he writes so prolifically would be nice if he’d respond once to the PFS thread on his forum. Being as he is seeing so many of us @ $600 a pop, etc. Just saying. :neutral_face:

#86

I wish he would. I feel like I’m doing his PR for him, lol. I do not see any recent posts on any subject, however, and as I previously mentioned, think that his book writing is the reason (just my best guess). I don’t think he would introduce any new subjects, however. I think that he could list the specific pathways that are affected by Finasteride…or SSRIs…but he would still look at your current symptoms and labwork, and tweak your particular system based on the logic expressed in the above links, trying to balance the systems that were compromised. I think the below two excerpts from the previous links summarize his general viewpoint…that it takes multiple hits to the system (picture a video game “health” meter) to deteriorate our sexual function and cause all these symptoms, and it takes multiple routes to fix this compromised system:

Excerpt#1:
I usually don’t see a single substance (drug, hormone, or nutrient, or even herb) working. There are many entrypoints to dysfunction when a single hormone/neurotransmitter is out of whack in function. What I usually see are multiple hormone/neurotransmitter/cytokine problems as a consequence.

regarding anxiety in the context of adrenal fatigue:
Mental function problems - such as anxiety - are often a summation of many signaling problems and/or metabolic problems, not just the effect of single signal problems.

Mental function is highly preserved, protected by redundant system since it is necessary for survival in the wild. It takes many problems acting together to impair mental function.

When a person has a mental illness, it is often caused by multiple underlying problems.

This is why single treatments often do not work fully or even well. For example, when using a serotonin reuptake inhibitor for panic attacks, often the best care scenario is that 70% of patients still have panic attacks despite treatment. Serotonin is only one of the signals that controls norepinephrine.

#87

[i]The following was taken from the introductory “Symptoms of Sexual Exhaustion” post from recover.forumup.org

What I find interesting is that the symptoms are 100% the same subset of symptoms that post-fin sufferers experience. The members of the sexual exhaustion forum, though, attribute their ED to excessive masturbation (check, guilty! lol), SSRIs, recreational drugs, etc.

From what I’ve read of Mariano’s take, he believes that it’s not the masturbation itself, but the underlying causes that makes one masturbate that are to blame. That is, masturbation, or, rather, chronic/excessive masturbation is a manifestation of deeper issues (chasing a dopamine high?). Regardless, I’ve decided to give my penis some rest (MAKE THAT A LOT OF REST), amidst the rest of the treatment (I’m now on Armour, starting Bromocriptine tonight + just began cycling Tongkat Ali). It’s interesting to note that the longest I’ve been able to go without masturbating is less than a week since discovering it, lol. Post-op, during healing, I was prohibited from touching myself for six weeks. When I was given the green light to have sex, I, of course masturbated first, and WHOA!, I blew a load like I hadn’t seen in years. Subsequent ejaculate volumes were back to post-fin miniscule amounts. Ejaculate/sperm?-volume recovery time has been compromised—how much time off could restore normal production? I’m gonna TRY to last, I have very little faith based on previous attempts, but I’m gonna try.[/i]

"You have experienced the typical symptoms of sexual exhaustion due to over-masturbation since your puberty.
Over-masturbation or over-ejaculation over-discharges the brain’s acetylcholine, dopamine, and serotonin nerves systems, resulting in brain’s/nervous (pro-sympathetic, due to over-conversion of dopamine to norepinephrine and epinephrine for stress responses), liver, cardiovascular, kidney, and endocrine disorder. Your brain/neuro-endocrine and liver systems are like an over-discharged car battery which won’t start the engine to perform recharging for itself.
The sexual exhaustion symptoms include:

  1. daily or orgasmic/ejaculation pains or cramps in pelvic cavity - including low back, tail bone, perineum, groins, perineum, penis (clitoris/vagina for women during penetration, intercourse, orgasm or post orgasm), testicles, low abdomen, neck/shoulders or rear brain (or whole head)- due to a lack of the relaxation and tissue-elastic hormone prostaglandin E-1 synthesized by the local tissues, an abrupt drop of the brain’s neurotransmitters acetylcholine, dopamine, serotonin and GABA, or an excessive conversion of the dopamine->norepinephrine->epinephrine.
  2. depression, stress , anxiety, and emotional instability (Mood Swing) - due to deficiency of the neurotransmitters acetylcholine, dopamine, serotonin add GABA.
  3. Attention Deficiency and Absence mind (losing mind concentration and memory) - due to the deficiency of the brain’s neurotransmitters serotonin and acetylcholine - memory protection failure or insufficient memory.
  4. eye floaters or sun-light sensitive eyes or sympathetic nervous pupil dilation - due to disorders of the nervous sensing (acetylcholine nervous) and amplifier (dopamine nervous) circuits, a deficiency of the serotonin/GABA nervous modulation in retina, excessive stress hormones, or a poor retinal blood circulation or an arterial constriction due to deficiency of prostaglandin E-1 or/and Nitric oxide or sympathetic nervous action on the beta receptors .
  5. buzzing ears - the same as Item 4…
  6. less or no seminal/lubrication production (vaginal dryness for women and VAGINISMUS ), weak ejaculation or ejaculation dysfunction - watery ejaculation or no ejaculation or orgasm - due to the neuro-endocrine disorder resulting from the weakening liver, adrenal, prostate and testicular (ovarian) functions. This is the destruction of seminal production mechanism for men. For women, it is due to a low estrogen and androstenedione/testosterone/prostaglandin E-1/oxytocin or/and a high progesterone level in the bloodstream.
  7. weak erection or youth impotence.
  8. low libido, exhaustion and fatigue due to deficiency of the brain’s neurotransmitters dopamine, acetylcholine and serotonin and a lack of oxytocin.
  9. prostatitis or urethitis ( the abrasion of the prostate or urethral duct; easier to have prostate/urethral/bladder infection) , urinary or bowel incontinence, pelvic pains (Interstitial Cystitis (IC) , testicular pains, penile pains, and clitoral numbness or pains as a result of excessive inflammatory prostaglandin E-2 release with a deficiency of healing hormone prostaglandin E-1 - disorders of the 3rd brain - the pelvic parasympathetic nerves S1-S5 and Co and the serotonin nervous modulators for the sympathetic T10-L2, particularly the L1 and L2 nervous branches to the bladder, urethra, prostate, bulbourethral glands, Great Vestibular glands, Urethral glands (de-generated seminal vesicles), clitoris, vagina, uterus and rectum/anus. men produces excessive pre-cum and women are vaginally over-wetted. Men or women may experience sex-/orgasm-induced stress incontinence (leakage or ejaculation of urine during sex or orgasm).
  10. penile (clitoral or G-spot for women) shrinkage ( or vaginal enlargement or loosening for women) - due to atrophy of spongy tissues caused by nervous damage, deficiency of acetylcholine or/and Nitric Oxide, or excessive stress hormone in the sympathetic alpha receptors.
  11. unwanted penile bending and shrinking (the clitoral/G-spot death and shrinkage)- formation of the scar tissues due to tissue and nervous abrasion .
  12. premature ejaculation - damage of the prostate/urethral nerves and duct, and burning-out (drop) of the serotonin and acetylcholine level in the brain and nervous synapses.
  13. premature hair loss or decoloring.
  14. short breathing and irregular cardiovascular output (sympathetic) - a weakening brain’s acetylcholine/serotonin and parasympathetic/vagus nervous function.
  15. white or violet nails - deficiency of Zinc.
  16. weak immunity - neuro-immune disorder resulting from the deficiency of the neurotransmitters acetylcholine (Yin Chi) and dopamine (Yang Chi). For example, easy to catch cool or get sick and requiring a longer time to get recovery from sickness.
  17. Sleeping disorder and its associated symptoms- due to the deficiency of serotonin and melatonin, both of which are synthesized by the pineal gland with GABA and norepinephrine, or due to excessive pituitary LH and FSH hormones in an attempt to revive a weak/dying testicular/ovarian function. This causes a deficiency hGH and excessive inflammatory hormone prostaglandin E-2 release into the bloodstream, an undercharging of the parasympathetic nervous system, and an excessive sympathetic nervous fire (Flight or Fight), resulting in back/joint/ligament pains or cramps, urinary or bowel incontinence, Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), prostatitis or urethritis, as a result of no or insufficient healing (restoration) power (prostaglandin E-1) in the organs. muscles, ligaments and joints.
  18. organ functional disorders in the 2nd brain (between the neck and pelvis) due to the weakening of the vagus (parasympathetic) nerves and the weakening serotonin nervous modulation on the sympathetic nervous functions - the most typical ones are: digestive , cardiovascular and liver systems; some experience the gallbladder and pancreas functional disorders too. The most visual or sensible disorder is stomach pain or digestive panic.
  19. Excessive Sweating - the sympathetic/epinephrine nervous fires burning the entire body due to an constantly excessive dopamine/norepinephrine-epinephrine conversion in the hypothalamus and adrenal medulla.
  20. Headaches or migraines - due to excessive inflammatory hormone prostaglandin E-2 release and excessive dopamine/norepinephrine-epinephrine conversion in the brain after the acetylcholine, serotonin and GABA nervous system were exhausted by excessive sex.
  21. Fatigue, tiredness and exhaustion - the parasympathetic nervous recharging/healing system is out of order; the pituitary releases excessive prolactin to shut down the testicular function.
  22. Muscle weakness - due to deficiency of DHEA, testosterone or DHT. This results from exhaustion of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal and/or testicular axis.
  23. Muscle Tremors/Twitching (pre-Parkinson’s symptoms) - due to deficiency of dopamine and acetylcholine. "
#88

[Size=4]Update of Treatments/Results[/size]
An update of my story has been long overdue. I’ve received PMs from time to time asking about Testosterone therapy, my surgery and general progress. People incorrectly assume that I am on TRT now, or have libido or a certain level of erectile ability. To be clear, my sexual function has bottomed out: I have nearly zero libido/drive/mojo, severe E.D. persists, back when I was still trying to date and have sex it would take obscenely high doses of Cialis or Viagra to get erect and sensitivity and pleasure were dulled. I also suffer from ongoing fatigue and depression. My ejaculation strength and volume are still subpar. It has been 4 1/2 years and counting now, of acute downward spiral illness. There have been moments where I’ve felt more energized, brief moments of positive signs, but overall, regretfully, I do not have anything to show for all the time, effort, money and pain I’ve invested in treating my PFS symptoms.

Here is a summary of the major stuff I’ve done along with the results and my assessment:

Hormonal Manipulation
Started with Clomiphene Citrate, added some Testim cream, followed by Arimidex. Played the dosage balancing / routine lab draw game for about a year. Seemed to give an initial boost in overall health (concurrent with better diet), may have helped “prop” me for a while, but ultimately worthless in my opinion. The prescribed nightly Cialis was most likely the cause of morning erections.

Penile Revascularization Surgery
Unnecessary, did not ultimately alleviate my severe E.D. I’ve since performed a multitude of doppler ultrasounds confirming that there is an ABUNDANCE of arterial blood flow to the penis. Furthermore, multiple urologists have told me from examining pre-op ultrasounds, tests and angiogram x-rays that the surgery was completely unnecessary. Most candidates for the surgery had clear cases of bike-related blunt perineal trauma; I had no such history, but took a chance because at the time, I thought I had done all I could do on the hormonal side. It was a mistake to not get second opinions before surgery. But I had a limited window with insurance coverage, and placed too much trust in the diagnosis. Tough lesson to learn. All other PFS cases who did the operation and some anecdotes of SSRI patients had the same (non) results as I did.

I had previously reported that I did have libido at the time of operation (hence why I entertained the possibility of mechanical malfunction). In retrospect, this was probably due to my nightly Cialis usage and hormonal manipulation. The inevitable downward descent was likely temporarily masked.

Now, regarding the previously-reported brief one week recovery at 4 weeks post-op: T to E ratio appeared good at this time, libido and brain-penis connection (fantasy/arousal) seemed to be there. Thought that T:E ratio was responsible, but it’s anyone’s guess what exactly was happening at this time.

Recovery didn’t last. Impossible to balance estrogen. High dosages of Cialis and/or Viagra were still necessary to have sex. Which wasn’t that pleasurable. Confounding variables to brief “recovery”: daily walking of 20+ miles & resultant high sun (vitamin D) intake, high zinc supplementation, multiple doctor injections of TriMix vasoactive agent to test penile artery connection via Doppler ultrasound, nightly 5mg of Cialis, 4 weeks of abstinence, exogenous hormone supplementation (Testim, Clomiphene Citrate, Arimidex) & again, apparent great T to E ratio (temporary).

Nutrition / Supplements / Medicines
Weaned off hormones and tried a new program of high dose vitamin supplementation (we’re talking the whole alphabet). Tried Dopamine Agonists like cabergoline, bromocriptine, L-dopa, etc. Tried bupropion. Tongkat Ali herb. Armour Thyroid. Brief flirtation with Testim alone and Clomid alone. Nothing worked. Libido fell to at an all time low. Didn’t even feel like masturbating any more. Realized I was doing it to try to feel normal, and out of habit, not pleasure. Loss of nocturnal and morning erections w/o hormone or Cialis use. Only positive was introduction to Weston Price/Primal Blueprint diet principles which provided some general health improvements.

Nystatin
Brief window of success taking Nysatin (intestinal antifungal) at high dose (return of rock hard morning erections). Was derailed from continuing this program due to difficulty in procuring the drug and other circumstances. Eventually headed in a totally opposite direction of theory/treatment. Theories for treating with Nystatin have been addressed elsewhere, use the search function and read posts by member Ihatepropecia702 if this angle interests you.

Prostatitis Pressure Massage / Antibiotics Treatment
Inconclusive. Nearly 2 months overseas treatment from prostatitis specialist doctor. No confirmed cultured pathogenic bacteria before or after. Allegedly observed inflammation via TRUS (Trans Rectal Ultrasound). Took long list of heavy fluoroquinolone antibiotics which wiped me out, exhausted me, including: ciprofloxacin, prulifloxacin, netromycin, moxifloxacin, nitrofurantoin, and others. DHT temporarily spiked in the middle of this treatment. Never before did this w/o hormones. (It’s now back to bottom of range, again). Urinary Strength appeared to improve. Weak morning erections started coming back during treatment. Lots of fluctuation in symptoms. Testicle pain seemed to go away. Then resurfaced. Did penile rehabilitation therapy (yohimbine, penile self-injections, weekly cialis use) for several months which improved general blood flow but did not solve arousal/erection issues. Results vanished upon discontinuation. The goal was to reverse mild fibrosis observed via ultrasound which affects veno-occlusive function (a direct, research-documented effect of finasteride intake/androgen deprivation). As of now, a couple uro-genital symptoms appear to have improved: urinary frequency/urgency + testicle pain. But symptoms have roller-coastered before, so I don’t know what to expect. The procedure appeared to do wonders for some classic, previously diagnosed chronic prostatitis cases. But it was clear that the PFS patients had something deeper, more symptoms, like fatigue, brain fog, worse libido/erectile issues. There was overlap in symptoms, some temporary improvement in some of the other PFS guys, but no substantive, conclusive, permanent improvements. Some were worse after the treatment. It took me a long time to recover from just the exhaustion of the antibiotics. I’m still not back to exercising as a precaution to not risk tendonitis from the FQ abx.

Current Thinking / Future Treatment / Lots of Speculation / Don’t make my mistakes
So I’m still suffering……I’ve been on the verge of breakdown, throwing my hands up, quitting, checking out. Somehow, I find some strength to keep on fighting, and that’s what I’m gonna attempt to do…

I feel that the solution to PFS is to fix what is wrong with the individual. All healthy folks are healthy in the same way, all sick folks are sick in different ways. Remove whatever obstacle there is in any individual PFS case, the body heals and returns to homeostasis. Simple, right? Lol. Alas, this has been an elusive task. My theory of PFS is what I’ve termed iPFS in honor of the late, great Steve Jobs: immune Post Finasteride System. In us unlucky young guys, finasteride was a switch that overwhelmed the system. Be it genetic proclivities, undiagnosed red flags that we should have been screened for/warned about before being indiscriminately prescribed a hormone-altering drug for cosmetic purposes, nutritional deficiencies (that every other guy who doesn’t take finasteride can get away with), etc., something overwhelmed the body’s systems, and I feel we’re in an overloaded, impaired, stressed immune response. The trick is to discover which systems have been compromised, and hopefully undertake a correct, methodical treatment to reverse. <----You don’t have to agree, it’s just my hunch, and I am not gonna bother attempting to substantiate this claim. And as I’ll keep emphasizing: I was wrong in everything I’ve tried, so what do I know?

I have my theories on this line of thinking, I’ve discussed some aspects of them on other threads, but I don’t care to get into specifics or turn this into a debate thread. Too often, I’ve become a cheerleader for the treatment I was pursuing because of all the negativity and critical response. Some of the critiques were warranted, boy I wish I hadn’t been so trusting, foolish, and impetuous! But here I am. For what it’s worth, I don’t believe that MDs, urologists, endocrinologists or pharmaceuticals, hormones or conventional approaches are the answer. I’ve become increasingly cynical, untrusting, jaded and conservative in treatment or supplementation of anything exogenous. I think that the de facto health care symptom treats symptoms and not underlying causes–it’s one big bandaid, and it doesn’t work. My current stance contradicts many of the things I’ve believed or preached or argued for in the past. So I’m gonna just shut up and and continue to research and learn more about diet, nutrition, chronic illness and alternative treatment ideas all by my lonesome.

Since I’ve been wrong on virtually everything I’ve tried to correct the problem, whatever I’m currently thinking/trying doesn’t matter. Don’t do as I’ve done! Lol. I cringe at a lot of my past impassioned writings and opinions–I think I was venting my PFS frustration by arguing for the sake of arguing a lot of times. I wanted to argue with the naysayers, I wanted this problem to be outside, finasteride, quite frankly–the stark reality of finasteride permanently altering us is too much to bear.

Regardless, I’ve realized that we’re going around in circles on this forum, and that my obsession with keeping up on the latest news and comments from the forum has not helped me become any healthier. I’ve really had some dark moments of depression, and I have to unplug and decompress for a while, attempt to not let compulsive PFS research and desperate, emotional internet forum in-fighting take a hold of me. So, since the areas I’m looking into now are controversial and usually spark up heated debates, I’d rather just do my thing offline and report back if a sustained, legitimate improvement has been achieved. It’s another fucking year closing in on me with this illness, and my goal is to try to avoid the forum, focus on new paths as positively as possible. I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about my PFS treatment and provide a much overdue update (read: warning to not repeat my mistakes!). I hope 2012 brings us some new breakthroughs, hang in there guys. Man, I am freakin’ verbose–sorry for the length of this post, I didn’t have time to write less. :wink:

2 Likes
#89

I think Goldstein gave up on those surgeries. I didn’t know you were one of the Kos guys. You’ve attempted alot of treatments. At the very least you’ve added to the literature that may help others some day.

Hang in there. I know you’ve been through alot.