Methylation Cycle and The P450 Systems

[backfromhell]

@elijah

@mariovitali

UPDATE :
I had to change my regimen from HCG to Clomid.

Don’t know why you went on Clomid, I would have tried iodine supplementation first. Clomid does raise LH and FSH, and this leads to an increase of total Testosterone, although this doesn’t guarantee at all that the bioavailable/free T will increase in the same fashion (that’s what happened to me with Clomid: LH/FSH/T/E/DHT/3aDiol G all went to the roof, while the bioav T stayed more or less the same). However if you don’t use an aromatase inhibitor your Estradiol will almost certainly jump. Arimidex and all the other AIs are p450 inhibitors. Whenever I took Arimidex, or worse, Myomin my libido went to zero.
As for the rest, I got recently the genetic results and I have homozygous mutation of the MTHFR C677T. I’m still taking all the methylation supplements that I wrote in my previous email. I tried adding vitamin K2 but I felt it had adverse effect even after sticking to it for 5 days. The question about K2 is whether it would temporarily make me worse to then get better later, but this is not my impression. In the past I tried methylfolate but it gave me headache, I read on the MTHFR support website that Niacinamide should mitigate the adverse effects of methylfolate, so next time I’ll try them together.
Have you tried coconut oil to increase 3b-HSD and 17b-HSD?

i had a complete temporary recovery with arimidex. Every PFS symptoms disappeared in 3 weeks with 0.25mg each 3-4 days.

i always have testosterone and estradiol on normal range.

[spstriken]

@elijah

@mariovitali

UPDATE :
I had to change my regimen from HCG to Clomid.

Don’t know why you went on Clomid, I would have tried iodine supplementation first. Clomid does raise LH and FSH, and this leads to an increase of total Testosterone, although this doesn’t guarantee at all that the bioavailable/free T will increase in the same fashion (that’s what happened to me with Clomid: LH/FSH/T/E/DHT/3aDiol G all went to the roof, while the bioav T stayed more or less the same). However if you don’t use an aromatase inhibitor your Estradiol will almost certainly jump. Arimidex and all the other AIs are p450 inhibitors. Whenever I took Arimidex, or worse, Myomin my libido went to zero.
As for the rest, I got recently the genetic results and I have homozygous mutation of the MTHFR C677T. I’m still taking all the methylation supplements that I wrote in my previous email. I tried adding vitamin K2 but I felt it had adverse effect even after sticking to it for 5 days. The question about K2 is whether it would temporarily make me worse to then get better later, but this is not my impression. In the past I tried methylfolate but it gave me headache, I read on the MTHFR support website that Niacinamide should mitigate the adverse effects of methylfolate, so next time I’ll try them together.
Have you tried coconut oil to increase 3b-HSD and 17b-HSD?

I wonder if MTHFR is the root cause of our issue. I googled and see it is even linked to Adrenal issue, low T and many more.BTW homozygous mutation of the MTHFR C677T is the worst of MTHFR.

doccarnahan.blogspot.ca/2013/05/ … -deal.html
If you are homozygous or have 2 abnormal copies, then enzyme efficiency drops down to 10% to 20% of normal, which can be very serious. The worst combination is 677T/1298C in which you are heterozygous to both anomalies. Many chronic illnesses are linked to this anomaly. Fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, migraines, chemical sensitivity, frequent miscarriage and frequent blood clots are all conditions associated with MTHFR anomaly. For a great diagram of more methylation related health problems, check this out:
I wonder if there is any body who has pfs but his tests show no MTHFR mutation?

[mariovitali]

@spstriken

@elijah

@mariovitali

UPDATE :
I had to change my regimen from HCG to Clomid.

Don’t know why you went on Clomid, I would have tried iodine supplementation first. Clomid does raise LH and FSH, and this leads to an increase of total Testosterone, although this doesn’t guarantee at all that the bioavailable/free T will increase in the same fashion (that’s what happened to me with Clomid: LH/FSH/T/E/DHT/3aDiol G all went to the roof, while the bioav T stayed more or less the same). However if you don’t use an aromatase inhibitor your Estradiol will almost certainly jump. Arimidex and all the other AIs are p450 inhibitors. Whenever I took Arimidex, or worse, Myomin my libido went to zero.
As for the rest, I got recently the genetic results and I have homozygous mutation of the MTHFR C677T. I’m still taking all the methylation supplements that I wrote in my previous email. I tried adding vitamin K2 but I felt it had adverse effect even after sticking to it for 5 days. The question about K2 is whether it would temporarily make me worse to then get better later, but this is not my impression. In the past I tried methylfolate but it gave me headache, I read on the MTHFR support website that Niacinamide should mitigate the adverse effects of methylfolate, so next time I’ll try them together.
Have you tried coconut oil to increase 3b-HSD and 17b-HSD?

I wonder if MTHFR is the root cause of our issue. I googled and see it is even linked to Adrenal issue, low T and many more.BTW homozygous mutation of the MTHFR C677T is the worst of MTHFR.

doccarnahan.blogspot.ca/2013/05/ … -deal.html
If you are homozygous or have 2 abnormal copies, then enzyme efficiency drops down to 10% to 20% of normal, which can be very serious. The worst combination is 677T/1298C in which you are heterozygous to both anomalies. Many chronic illnesses are linked to this anomaly. Fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, migraines, chemical sensitivity, frequent miscarriage and frequent blood clots are all conditions associated with MTHFR anomaly. For a great diagram of more methylation related health problems, check this out:
I wonder if there is any body who has pfs but his tests show no MTHFR mutation?

I am homozygous to C677T. I am not sure however if this mutation is the root cause of our problems. Perhaps HPA Axis disregulation, P450 and impaired methylation are all involved. It would be great if as many people possible could have a Functional Liver Detox Profile to see how both detox phases are working (thanks to dannyfc for asking about FLDP). Unfortunately this test is not available where i am located.

[mariovitali]

Guys, here is my update.

I am still waiting for my Free T results. E2 is somewhat high but within normal levels. Recall that i switched from HCG to Clomid (25mg each day in the morning) and so i am waiting to see if Clomid keeps Free T levels within normal range.

In terms of how i feel, i feel great. Most of the time i am completely symptom-free and it appears that as time passes by, weather changes affect me much less than before. I don’t remember when is the last time that i had Brain Fog. One thing that worries me is the slow response in order to have an erection. I do not know if this issue will improve. Nevertheless i can have a normal sex life.

My regimen is as follows :

-I dropped completely Zinc and other DHT Inhibitors (Astaxanthin sources such as Red Peppers, Salmon. White Button Mushrooms)

• For Methylation : B12 (now once a week), Daily : Metafolin, Magnesium, TMG
  -Mitochondrial Support : CoQ10, D-Ribose, ENADA NADH, Selenium
  -Combined T3/T4 (i am hypothyroid)
  -I still stay away from anything that inhibits P450

Vitamin B6 is a big mystery. I’ve read entries about it being a DHT inhibitor whereas other entries describe B6 as important vitamin for T production. Whenever i take it i feel great so perhaps i will add it to my daily regimen and see how it goes.

I had to drop 1000mg of C daily since i experienced a huge spike of Iron in my blood (Vit C enhances Iron absorption).

[Jonson]

what do you think about methylation regimen + pregnenolone and maybe progesterone.
that could be interesting.

[mariovitali]

@Jonson

what do you think about methylation regimen + pregnenolone and maybe progesterone.
that could be interesting.

I tried pregnenolone for just one day. I did not have any side effects from it but then i thought that this should be a last resort. I’d prefer to find a way for my body to create the PREG it needs. In researching PREG i also came across PROG. I don’t remember now to be honest the reason, but progesterone did not seem like a good option.

[dannyfc]

@mariovitali

Guys, here is my update.

I am still waiting for my Free T results. E2 is somewhat high but within normal levels. Recall that i switched from HCG to Clomid (25mg each day in the morning) and so i am waiting to see if Clomid keeps Free T levels within normal range.

In terms of how i feel, i feel great. Most of the time i am completely symptom-free and it appears that as time passes by, weather changes affect me much less than before. I don’t remember when is the last time that i had Brain Fog. One thing that worries me is the slow response in order to have an erection. I do not know if this issue will improve. Nevertheless i can have a normal sex life.

My regimen is as follows :

-I dropped completely Zinc and other DHT Inhibitors (Astaxanthin sources such as Red Peppers, Salmon. White Button Mushrooms)

• For Methylation : B12 (now once a week), Daily : Metafolin, Magnesium, TMG
  -Mitochondrial Support : CoQ10, D-Ribose, ENADA NADH, Selenium
  -Combined T3/T4 (i am hypothyroid)
  -I still stay away from anything that inhibits P450

Vitamin B6 is a big mystery. I’ve read entries about it being a DHT inhibitor whereas other entries describe B6 as important vitamin for T production. Whenever i take it i feel great so perhaps i will add it to my daily regimen and see how it goes.

I had to drop 1000mg of C daily since i experienced a huge spike of Iron in my blood (Vit C enhances Iron absorption).

I’m on a similar regimen and feel good mentally - just not sexually:

200mcg Selenium
25mcg T3
50mg Co-Q10
Adrenal Cortex
2000mg Calcium D-Glucurate
300mg x3 St. John’s Wort
1000mg Vit C
5000mg Vit D

[elijah]

Hi guys,
I just had my 23andMe raw genetic data analyzed by geneticgenie.org. According to my genome, the recommended protocol is similar to what is advised here in this thread, both in the supplements to take and those avoid (e.g. curcumin, grapefruit, folate). With some differences, hydroxocobalamin b12 instead of methylcobalamin b12, use rosemary, sage, and… (because of MAO-A mutation) progesterone!
Overall I feel slightly better, nocturnals and morning wood are getting back, although I’m very far from feeling great, still suffering from secondary hypogonadism.

[xptriado]

Where can i get hydroxycobalamin? I havent foubd it anywhere…just adenosylcobalamin

[droit]

@xptriado

Where can i get hydroxycobalamin? I havent foubd it anywhere…just adenosylcobalamin

Hydroxocobalamin is the form that is preferred by Rich Van Konynenburg’s ‘simple methylation protocol.’

He argued that Methyl-B12 will over drive the methylation cycle while preventing the trans-sulfuration pathway, which is important for glutathione production.

Perque is the brand that was used in his Methylation study with CFS patients.

amazon.com/Perque-PERQUE-Act … B0045IXMYE

Dr. Amy Yasko’s site sells a brand in drops.

holisticheal.com/hydroxy-b12-mega-drops.html

[xptriado]

The folks over at phoenixrising disagree afaiu because they say its poorly absorbed wheb compared to mb12,adb12

Anyone haa experience with either hydroxo alone or mb12+adb12?

[spstriken]

@elijah

Hi guys,
I just had my 23andMe raw genetic data analyzed by geneticgenie.org. According to my genome, the recommended protocol is similar to what is advised here in this thread, both in the supplements to take and those avoid (e.g. curcumin, grapefruit, folate). With some differences, hydroxocobalamin b12 instead of methylcobalamin b12, use rosemary, sage, and… (because of MAO-A mutation) progesterone!
Overall I feel slightly better, nocturnals and morning wood are getting back, although I’m very far from feeling great, still suffering from secondary hypogonadism.

So what is the result? what kind of mutation you have got? can you give more detail please. Looks like many have MTHFR gene mutation.

[droit]

@xptriado

The folks over at phoenixrising disagree afaiu because they say its poorly absorbed wheb compared to mb12,adb12

Anyone haa experience with either hydroxo alone or mb12+adb12?

I’ve gotten no sense of that in all of my reading I’ve never heard that. Sublingual hydroxo-b12 in the upper lip for 45 minutes is how it is recommended on Phoenix rising for those sensitive to the methyl form given their genetics.

[mariovitali]

I felt terrible when i took hydroxocobalamin. OTOH The form of B12 “dibencozide” does not give me any problems.

@Elijah

It would be great if you can have an FLDP (Functional Liver Detox Profile) test to see how both detox phases work. In fact, i would say that to everyone in this forum to have this test if they can. Also please research Tocotrienol. It is great for oxidative stress but there are some studies where it shows it actually reduces testosterone (in rats). OTOH There are supplements that contain tocotrienol which are T Boosters.

EDIT : It appears quite difficult to find an FLDP test in United States which seems suspicious. I can find it only in Australia and UK.

[spstriken]

@mariovitali

I felt terrible when i took hydroxocobalamin. OTOH The form of B12 “dibencozide” does not give me any problems.

@Elijah

It would be great if you can have an FLDP (Functional Liver Detox Profile) test to see how both detox phases work. In fact, i would say that to everyone in this forum to have this test if they can. Also please research Tocotrienol. It is great for oxidative stress but there are some studies where it shows it actually reduces testosterone (in rats). OTOH There are supplements that contain tocotrienol which are T Boosters.

EDIT : It appears quite difficult to find an FLDP test in United States which seems suspicious. I can find it only in Australia and UK.

few guys have done liver detox phase tested and found impaired liver function
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1398&p=10242&hilit=liver#p10242

[mariovitali]

Update : I had another crash because i was not careful. I took DIM (wanting to boost Phase I and Phase II detox) which is a DHT inhibitor. The crash had the usual side effects : Low Libido, no erections,negative thoughts and not good sleep quality.

I believe that i am close in finding the final remaining culprit which -in my case- is Cortisol production. It might also be the case that i have high 11-beta-hydroxysteroid-dehydrogenase activity which changes the effect that cortisol has to your body (even though if Cortisol level is normal) and also makes you fat. I have pronounced fat specifically on the waist line.

I’ve also read that Barometric pressure changes raise/lower Cortisol production. Believe it or not, upon waking i know exactly what happened during the night in terms of Barometric pressure. My girlfriend believes me now after numerous trials : If upon waking i do not have oily skin then that means that Barometric pressure had a downward trend during the night. If OTOH i have oily skin then i know that during the night baro pressure was either steady or rising. So I am beginning a regimen to lower Cortisol ASAP (Induction of Growth Hormone, Holy Basil Extract, Polymethoxylated Flavonoids, Sugar Elimination and Shed fat from waist line).

[mariovitali]

It seems that DHT inhibitors are everywhere. I researched Holy Basil (which contains Ursolic Acid). I then found the following entry at PubMed

Ursolic acid reduces prostate size and dihydrotestosterone level in a rat model of benign prostatic hyperplasia

BPH-induced animals displayed an increase in prostate weight with increased testosterone and DHT levels in both the serum and prostate. However, ursolic acid treatment resulted in significant reductions in prostate weight and testosterone and DHT levels in both the serum and prostate, compared with BPH-induced animals. Histopathological examination also showed that ursolic acid treatment suppressed TP-induced prostatic hyperplasia. These findings indicate that ursolic acid may effectively inhibit the development of BPH and it may be a useful agent in BPH treatment.

So Holy Basil should be also added to the list of DHT Inhibitors.

[DerProfessor]

Mario, I apologise if I’m asking something you have already outlined in this thread.

But just how severe was your erectile dysfunction BEFORE the methylation protocol?

Can you give a % for before and after? And also for where you are now? That would be very useful. I am about to embark on the methylation protocol myself.

[spstriken]

I put a study here long ago that DIM is not good also broccoli is not good.I don’t remember the exact mechanism but the study said Broccoli or DIM first reduce your estrogen but then some how you end up with more Estrogen. I used to drink broccoli juice but I felt the exactly the way the study described so I stopped it. The study suggested using TMG instead.

thinksteroids.com/community/thr … 134236632/

ok here I found my own post
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3295&p=19087&hilit=TMG#p19087

[mariovitali]

@DerProfessor

Mario, I apologise if I’m asking something you have already outlined in this thread.

But just how severe was your erectile dysfunction BEFORE the methylation protocol?

Can you give a % for before and after? And also for where you are now? That would be very useful. I am about to embark on the methylation protocol myself.

I would have days with very good erections and some days i couldn’t have an erection at all. The Methylation protocol gave me a minor boost but mainly it significantly attenuated Brain Fog and Insomnia and my Emotional well-being.

Actually this is the reason that i felt that something is missing with the plain methylation Theory. What drastically changed my erections quality is when i boosted P450 through diet and avoidance of specific substances that inhibit these enzymes.